Crown

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MKSGR said:

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Crash said:

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MKSGR said:
Next Feb or March

(The GT2 might complement the 599 well, don't you think. Thinking of track usage...)

So you're going to take both?

Maybe... However, right now: waiting for the Supertest (and, BTW, some 0-300 data would be nice ).

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PorSchelover1 said:
7:31 em n-ring

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mp said:
3. Since the Turbo wasn't designed for Cup tires, using PASM and Cups probably didn't help matters.

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MKSGR said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
I can already tell you some little thing... Sport Auto Horst von Saurma will achive 7.3Xmin on the Ring without any problem. Issue 1/2008 or 2/2008...

That sounds very promising Looks like the car might be worth buying... However, I have taken the decision to not order any Porsche before having seen the Supertest

It is not necessary to mention this. We all know your point of view. I am looking forward what you will post if HvS drives a 7.3x

Simple answer: if HvS does a sub-7:40 this result would (in my opinion) highlight the rather unfavourable results of the 997TT supertest again. Why? Simply reason. Just assume that HvS is within a 5-8s range compared to the officially claimed Porsche figures with nearly all Porsche cars (Carrera GT, GT3, GT3RS, 997, GT2 etc. etc.). However, he misses Porsche's 997TT claim by nearly 15s. What does that imply? In my opinion that would underline the relevance of the 997TT Supertest and would also confirm my suspicion regarding Porsche's 997TT performance claims.

BTW: if HvS does a below 7:40 time this would clearly highlight what a nice sportscar the new GT2 is Given our enthusiasm in the months before the first test reports on the 997TT and the disappointments that followed I, however, have learned to be cautious about the information available to date. In essence, the info is just based on what Porsche wants us to believe. We need independant verification before we get too excited.

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
I can already tell you some little thing... Sport Auto Horst von Saurma will achive 7.3Xmin on the Ring without any problem. Issue 1/2008 or 2/2008...

That sounds very promising Looks like the car might be worth buying... However, I have taken the decision to not order any Porsche before having seen the Supertest

It is not necessary to mention this. We all know your point of view. I am looking forward what you will post if HvS drives a 7.3x

Simple answer: if HvS does a sub-7:40 this result would (in my opinion) highlight the rather unfavourable results of the 997TT supertest again. Why? Simply reason. Just assume that HvS is within a 5-8s range compared to the officially claimed Porsche figures with nearly all Porsche cars (Carrera GT, GT3, GT3RS, 997, GT2 etc. etc.). However, he misses Porsche's 997TT claim by nearly 15s. What does that imply? In my opinion that would underline the relevance of the 997TT Supertest and would also confirm my suspicion regarding Porsche's 997TT performance claims.

BTW: if HvS does a below 7:40 time this would clearly highlight what a nice sportscar the new GT2 is Given our enthusiasm in the months before the first test reports on the 997TT and the disappointments that followed I, however, have learned to be cautious about the information available to date. In essence, the info is just based on what Porsche wants us to believe. We need independant verification before we get too excited.

In another thread you wrote :
"The claimed 7:32 for 997GT2 fit nicely into this sequence of "dream figures"

Dream on Zuffenhausen is all I can say "
And you told us we are all naive dreamers who went for the Porsche marketing bullshit. In your opinion it is absolutely impossible for a GT2 to get below 7.40.
And now ?

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
I can already tell you some little thing... Sport Auto Horst von Saurma will achive 7.3Xmin on the Ring without any problem. Issue 1/2008 or 2/2008...

That sounds very promising Looks like the car might be worth buying... However, I have taken the decision to not order any Porsche before having seen the Supertest

It is not necessary to mention this. We all know your point of view. I am looking forward what you will post if HvS drives a 7.3x

Simple answer: if HvS does a sub-7:40 this result would (in my opinion) highlight the rather unfavourable results of the 997TT supertest again. Why? Simply reason. Just assume that HvS is within a 5-8s range compared to the officially claimed Porsche figures with nearly all Porsche cars (Carrera GT, GT3, GT3RS, 997, GT2 etc. etc.). However, he misses Porsche's 997TT claim by nearly 15s. What does that imply? In my opinion that would underline the relevance of the 997TT Supertest and would also confirm my suspicion regarding Porsche's 997TT performance claims.

BTW: if HvS does a below 7:40 time this would clearly highlight what a nice sportscar the new GT2 is Given our enthusiasm in the months before the first test reports on the 997TT and the disappointments that followed I, however, have learned to be cautious about the information available to date. In essence, the info is just based on what Porsche wants us to believe. We need independant verification before we get too excited.

In another thread you wrote :
"The claimed 7:32 for 997GT2 fit nicely into this sequence of "dream figures"

Dream on Zuffenhausen is all I can say "
And you told us we are all naive dreamers who went for the Porsche marketing bullshit. In your opinion it is absolutely impossible for a GT2 to get below 7.40.
And now ?

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KresoF1 said:
RT12... Very fast indeed but, main reason is the fact that all press RT12 examples features more then 650hp... I respect RT12 highly but, I would never buy one...

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KresoF1 said:
it will be pretty close-trust me...

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
RT12... Very fast indeed but, main reason is the fact that all press RT12 examples features more then 650hp... I respect RT12 highly but, I would never buy one...

Would you still not buy it if the producer guaranteed you (in writing!) that your car has a higher hp figure than the test car

Just theoretically, of course

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Crash said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
I can already tell you some little thing... Sport Auto Horst von Saurma will achive 7.3Xmin on the Ring without any problem. Issue 1/2008 or 2/2008...

That sounds very promising Looks like the car might be worth buying... However, I have taken the decision to not order any Porsche before having seen the Supertest

It is not necessary to mention this. We all know your point of view. I am looking forward what you will post if HvS drives a 7.3x

Simple answer: if HvS does a sub-7:40 this result would (in my opinion) highlight the rather unfavourable results of the 997TT supertest again. Why? Simply reason. Just assume that HvS is within a 5-8s range compared to the officially claimed Porsche figures with nearly all Porsche cars (Carrera GT, GT3, GT3RS, 997, GT2 etc. etc.). However, he misses Porsche's 997TT claim by nearly 15s. What does that imply? In my opinion that would underline the relevance of the 997TT Supertest and would also confirm my suspicion regarding Porsche's 997TT performance claims.

BTW: if HvS does a below 7:40 time this would clearly highlight what a nice sportscar the new GT2 is Given our enthusiasm in the months before the first test reports on the 997TT and the disappointments that followed I, however, have learned to be cautious about the information available to date. In essence, the info is just based on what Porsche wants us to believe. We need independant verification before we get too excited.

In another thread you wrote :
"The claimed 7:32 for 997GT2 fit nicely into this sequence of "dream figures"

Dream on Zuffenhausen is all I can say "
And you told us we are all naive dreamers who went for the Porsche marketing bullshit. In your opinion it is absolutely impossible for a GT2 to get below 7.40.
And now ?

I think his gloominess was pretty well founded, based on the pretty average Turbo NBR times. Why do you feel the need to bash him like that anyway?

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Whoopsy said:
There is something I don't get from a few of you. A select few of you seems to think Horst von Saurma is king and his time should be the benchmark for comparing cars.

O and sorry for being ignorant, but what credentials does he have? I know him only as a journalist, but was he a race car driver? Did he win anything? What was special about him that makes lap times more creditable than Walter Rohl other than his 'independence'? To me at least, a lap time by Sabine Schmitz has more weight than Mr Saurma.

Now since he is a 'independent' tester, that means he has no intimate knowledge of the car he is testing, and since he was not involved in developing the handling of the cars, he would have no way of wrinking out the last bit of performance out of a car. Also, none of you actually know for sure whether he actually has access to a completely closed track for flying laps, ie accurate track times, so basically his times are all compromised.

I'd rather compare factory published laps, sure they minght be 'ringer' times but since it's their cars, they should know a way or 2 to wrink out the last tiny bit of performance out of their cars, that to me at least will be what a car is truely capable of.

For those of you who question the large gap between the factory time and HvS's time in the Turbo, it could just be that HvS is just not comfortable driving the Turbo fast, or his style is just not compatible with the handling of the Turbo while Walter Rohl has no problems with it. And this last point has been proven in this forum for quite a while, the Turbo is not a track-focused car, it is a super fast GT car but to wrink out all the performance out of it you will need to be a pro.

I am in no way a competent track driver, I can drive fast but I know my limits and in the Turbo, my limit is lower than when I was in my C5 Corvette. On a favorite stretch of ~150km winding highway, I am about 5 mins slower in the Turbo than when I was in my C5 Corvette. Surprising or not, I was more comfortable doing high speed cornering in the Vette than in the Turbo. Does it means the C5 is faster than the Turbo? Yes in my case but I am sure a more competent driver will smoke the C5 in a Turbo. Same idea with HvS's lap times.

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turbosteff said:

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Crash said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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turbosteff said:

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MKSGR said:

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KresoF1 said:
I can already tell you some little thing... Sport Auto Horst von Saurma will achive 7.3Xmin on the Ring without any problem. Issue 1/2008 or 2/2008...

That sounds very promising Looks like the car might be worth buying... However, I have taken the decision to not order any Porsche before having seen the Supertest

It is not necessary to mention this. We all know your point of view. I am looking forward what you will post if HvS drives a 7.3x

Simple answer: if HvS does a sub-7:40 this result would (in my opinion) highlight the rather unfavourable results of the 997TT supertest again. Why? Simply reason. Just assume that HvS is within a 5-8s range compared to the officially claimed Porsche figures with nearly all Porsche cars (Carrera GT, GT3, GT3RS, 997, GT2 etc. etc.). However, he misses Porsche's 997TT claim by nearly 15s. What does that imply? In my opinion that would underline the relevance of the 997TT Supertest and would also confirm my suspicion regarding Porsche's 997TT performance claims.

BTW: if HvS does a below 7:40 time this would clearly highlight what a nice sportscar the new GT2 is Given our enthusiasm in the months before the first test reports on the 997TT and the disappointments that followed I, however, have learned to be cautious about the information available to date. In essence, the info is just based on what Porsche wants us to believe. We need independant verification before we get too excited.

In another thread you wrote :
"The claimed 7:32 for 997GT2 fit nicely into this sequence of "dream figures"

Dream on Zuffenhausen is all I can say "
And you told us we are all naive dreamers who went for the Porsche marketing bullshit. In your opinion it is absolutely impossible for a GT2 to get below 7.40.
And now ?

I think his gloominess was pretty well founded, based on the pretty average Turbo NBR times. Why do you feel the need to bash him like that anyway?

He (Horst) needs this.

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Whoopsy said:
There is something I don't get from a few of you. A select few of you seems to think Horst von Saurma is king and his time should be the benchmark for comparing cars.

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Whoopsy said:
So we are still at the same spot, does HvS/Supertest run the complete track that the factory tester runs? If they don't, then the times are still meaningless and connot be compared, it's apples vs oranges.

As I am still quite clueless, when HvS run the compromised track, doesn't he has to go in and out of the pit? So when does his time starts? The moment he start the car? the moment he exit the pit? And his exit speed out of the pit could be different everytime. When does his lap time ends? When he re-enters the pit? He won't have the start/finish line to cross if he doesn't run the complete track.

How do he time his laptimes? If he doesn't run the full track he probably can't use the track timing equipment. A passenger with a stop watch? A on track observer with a stop watch? Or a electronic transponder? GPS or Laser timing gear? If the times are from a stopwatch, then human reaction time and space/perspective comes into place and adds even more unknowns into his times.

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Whoopsy said:
So we are still at the same spot, does HvS/Supertest run the complete track that the factory tester runs? If they don't, then the times are still meaningless and connot be compared, it's apples vs oranges.

As I am still quite clueless, when HvS run the compromised track, doesn't he has to go in and out of the pit? So when does his time starts? The moment he start the car? the moment he exit the pit? And his exit speed out of the pit could be different everytime. When does his lap time ends? When he re-enters the pit? He won't have the start/finish line to cross if he doesn't run the complete track.

How do he time his laptimes? If he doesn't run the full track he probably can't use the track timing equipment. A passenger with a stop watch? A on track observer with a stop watch? Or a electronic transponder? GPS or Laser timing gear? If the times are from a stopwatch, then human reaction time and space/perspective comes into place and adds even more unknowns into his times.

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MKSGR said:

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mp said:
3. Since the Turbo wasn't designed for Cup tires, using PASM and Cups probably didn't help matters.

Just a little piece of additional information:

Porsche claims that Cup tires on the 997TT improve the NBR time by ca. 7s...

Porsche test drivers claim that a 7:42 is achievable (997TT with Cup tires) and that a 7:49 is achievable with standard tires.

P.S.: I guess, in your post you are referring to PSM and not to PASM, right?

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Whoopsy said:
I went to SportAuto's website and watched their 997TT NBR video, it doesn't show where he starts, it's definitely not where he finished that's for sure.

So do they do their lap times during public lapping or do they booked and closed the whole track to do their lapping?

Sorry to be so anal but since they have one of the most complete list of times, I am curious to find out how they do the tests and how comparable are they to the factory times. I don't speak or read German so their mag or website don't really gives me any help. I find it quite hard to believe that some of you refer to their times like quoting the bible but none of you actually know how exact they do the tests. RC did mentioned a while ago that they do not do a complete lap but I think some of you disagreed, do we have a definite answer on that?

Interesting observation from the video, 1st he is not wearing a helmet, second he has PASM in normal, PSM off and Sports mode on. And it looks like he did his lapping in a chilly early morning.

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mp said:
Looking at SA's Ring map for the Turbo's test, it looks like they DON'T do a complete lap. There is a small gap between the Start & Finish line. If this is the case, it surely can't be a flying lap.

None of this really matters as long as Porsche and others use the same method.

I was extremely surprised to see HvS NOT wearing a helmet. He must like living dangerously.

And finally, not sure how you managed to verify the settings (PASM, PSM etc) he used, along with it being a chilly morning? You must be better on your PC than I am?

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Whoopsy said:
I went to SportAuto's website and watched their 997TT NBR video, it doesn't show where he starts, it's definitely not where he finished that's for sure.

So do they do their lap times during public lapping or do they booked and closed the whole track to do their lapping?

Sorry to be so anal but since they have one of the most complete list of times, I am curious to find out how they do the tests and how comparable are they to the factory times. I don't speak or read German so their mag or website don't really gives me any help. I find it quite hard to believe that some of you refer to their times like quoting the bible but none of you actually know how exact they do the tests. RC did mentioned a while ago that they do not do a complete lap but I think some of you disagreed, do we have a definite answer on that?

Interesting observation from the video, 1st he is not wearing a helmet, second he has PASM in normal, PSM off and Sports mode on. And it looks like he did his lapping in a chilly early morning.

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mp said:
Looking at SA's Ring map for the Turbo's test, it looks like they DON'T do a complete lap. There is a small gap between the Start & Finish line. If this is the case, it surely can't be a flying lap.

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Whoopsy said:
.... I find it quite hard to believe that some of you refer to their times like quoting the bible but none of you actually know how exact they do the tests. .....