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    Aug 19, 2002 12:49:06 PM

    jjr1
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    Help please deciding old GT3 or new Carrera 03 for

    similar money? The GT3 is a clubsport 2years old with 22,000 miles and they want Pounds67k while a 03 Carrera dressed up to look like one with modified suspension can be bought for Pounds60k but without the performance

    Which would you opt for and why? Is a GT3 going to require a lot more attention, servicing wise etc.

    PS this particular GT3 has had 2 clutches !! Is this normal as it sounds ridiculous to me.

    Thanks in advance

    Aug 19, 2002 1:51:06 PM

    RCA
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    Re: Help please deciding old GT3 or new Carrera 03 for

    I can only tell you what I personally would do: I'd go for a 03 996 C2, eventually with the 345 HP powerkit engine.
    The reasons? Here are some of them:
    • GT3s are usually used on the track
    • 2 clutches sound weird to me, unless the car has been raced
    • If the car has been raced, it is a NO GO for me
    • The 03 996 with the 320 HP engine is a very good perfomer, close to GT3 performance (with the exception of top speed)
    • The 345 HP powerkit delivers almost the same performance as in the "old" GT3
    • The available (optional) 30 mm sport suspension adds a GT3-like handling to the 996
    • Maintenance cost might be higher on the GT3
    • With the ALL NEW GT3 around the corner (spring 2003?), the "old" GT3 might loose a lot of value


    If money is not a big issue to you, why don't you go for the all new GT3 coming out around spring 2003?
    Or get a brand new 996 C2 with the 345 HP powerkit engine and the 30 mm suspension.
    If you want to seriously track race your car, you should however consider buying the GT3 Clubsport you mentioned.

    Aug 19, 2002 2:02:56 PM

    jjr1
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    Re: Help please deciding old GT3 or new Carrera 03 for

    The powerkit and 30mm drop on suspension for a UK car is incredibly expensive but I share your concerns about the cars being tracked...... Tough choice I agree. As for the new GT3 because of the ridiculously low allocation for RHD it will be nigh on impossible to get one since speculators put deposits down, ages ago.

    Is the Aerokit on the 03 spec cars the same as the old or is it similar to the Aerokit II?

    Aug 19, 2002 2:28:17 PM

    RCA
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    Re: Help please deciding old GT3 or new Carrera 03 for

    Only the Aerokit II is available for 03 cars.



    You still didn't tell me what you want: sporty looks or a sporty car. The Aerokit has some advantages on the track but in real life driving, it is more of a show outfit.
    So why don't you just put the cost of the Aerokit into the powerkit and/or 30 mm suspension. Or just get the 996 C2 with powerkit and add a H&R suspension upgrade later on?
    If you seriously track race, go for the GT3 Clubsport you mentioned and face the risk to have to spend a lot of additional money for maintenance and repairs.
    If you want this Porsche mainly for street driving, go for the 03 996 C2.

    One last thing: if you have to talk about money, a Porsche might be the wrong car for you. Just a little hint what could happen if the GT3 Clubsport you mentioned has technical problems. Don't forget: the 03 996 C2 would carry a 2 year warranty and maintenance is substantially cheaper. A GT3 engine was around 30000 EUR last time I looked it up. A 996 engine something around 8000 EUR.

    Aug 20, 2002 7:51:24 AM

    jjr1
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    Re: Help please deciding old GT3 or new Carrera 03 for

    Thankyou for all your advice. The dilemma over the track part is I tend to use my bike more than a car on track. I currently drive a E46 M3 and find it just a little too sanitised and am looking for something with a bit more 'edge'.

    As for the posing, well you have to don't you?

    Aug 20, 2002 9:52:02 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: jjr1

    Posing

    Well, I actually don't care too much about posing anymore but maybe because I'm 37 years old with wife and kid.

    Why don't you keep your M3 E46 and wait another year or so to have a look on the new M3 and maybe on the upcoming all new 996 (due sometime around 2004)?

    If you don't track race, buying the "old" GT3 with more than 20000 mls on it might not be a wise thing to do.
    Another possibility: why don't you go for a "naked" 996 C2 with powerkit? All options, even the PCM2, can be retrofitted.
    The 30 mm sport suspension is not available as a retrofit kit but I'm sure that H&R will offer some nice setups for 03 cars later on.
    Finally, it is YOUR money, YOU have to decide on it.

    Only one hint (because you might not know me):
    I owned a 996 C2, a 996 C4 with 320 HP powerkit and I now own a 996 Turbo with sufficient power. One might think I know what I'm talking about.

    Sep 26, 2002 8:51:37 PM

    testdrv321
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Posing

    Go for a 03 with the Aerokit, X74 and X51, don't forget to delete the sunroof. The new cars are more refined and it sounds like the GT3 was abused.

    Does anyone have more info on the X74 (-30mm suspension)? It is available as parts and I have about half of them so far, anxiously awaiting the rest so I can install that and GT3 adjustable sway bars. But I don't know much about it.

    Sep 26, 2002 9:10:50 PM

    RCA
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    Re: Posing

    Why not the "real" thing, the GT3?
    A 996 with X51, X74 and Aerokit Cup II could have the same price tag as the upcoming new GT3.
    The GT3 engine is still THE Porsche masterpiece, used in the 996 Turbo and GT2 too (turbocharged).
    Nothing against the X51 but the M96 engine is something complete different.
    Example: for the price of a GT3 engine you get almost 4 996 engines.

    BTW: As far as I heard, Porsche doesn't recommend retrofitting the X74 on the 996. Cars equipped with X74 from the factory have body re-enforcements. One reason why X74 isn't officially available for retrofit.

    The X74 kit is not height adjustable. For track use, you might be better off with a H&R coilover kit.
    The GT3 swaybars are not recommended for the X74 kit.

    Here's a picture of this kit:

    Sep 26, 2002 9:41:21 PM

    testdrv321
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    Re: Posing

    Why not the real thing..... unfortunately, I live in the US, which means no GT3 for me. The car was ordered in April and even now, there is still no definitive word on the GT3 coming to the US, so I had to go for the next best thing.

    There is no doubt that the GT1 based engines are better than the M96, but the M96 is better than nothing.

    I based the X74 decision on a few things. I was not worried about stiffness with a C2 coupe, no sunroof and a GT3 clubsport cage... the car is VERY stiff. The H&R kit was my alternate option, but I do still drive the car on the street and have become a firm believer in factory knows best. I'd love to know more about what is actually modified in the X74 bodies.

    Where did you hear that the GT3 sway bars are not recommended? I wanted some adjustability to tune under/oversteer in the car so I selected them. If the car does not feel right, I can always switch to the H&R. I also was no thrilled with H&R not distinguishing between the sub 01''s and the 02/03 cars which do have some changes.

    Sep 26, 2002 10:44:11 PM

    FixedWing
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    LHD vs. RHD

    Forget about the RHD bit. What's the big deal about driving a LHD car in the U.K.? You'll be use to it in 10 minutes. And the price difference doesn't justify the RHD. If you really have to have RHD then special order it through a European dealer.

    Personally, I prefer the GT3. Yes, you'll take a bath once the new ones come out but you are going to take a bath on any 996 you buy so get use to it.

    I think a car that has been tracked is less of a big deal than does RC. A car that has actually been raced is another story though.

    S.

    Sep 26, 2002 10:53:23 PM

    RCA
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    testdrv321...

    The GT3 IS coming to the US, I can assure you that.
    Spring 2003 should be introduction in Germany, first cars should go to the US latest autumn 2003.

    Where did I hear the story about the swaybars? Well, let me put it this way: this is somehow the "official" statement.
    I know that such statements aren't always trustable but I got this info from somebody who always tried to be sincere with me.

    Don't get me wrong: the M96 is not a bad engine. Well, actually it WAS a bad engine. First cars back in 97 had some problems but right now, the M96 engine is a treat and I'm not saying that to please you. The X51 engine tops the whole thing, a very nice product. However I find the price tag a bit...to say it without flaming anybody at Porsche...overpriced.

    H&R isn't always H&R. There are so many different suspension setups available...never fully trust dealers, especially in the US. Heinz Remmen, the owner of H&R, loves Porsche. He actually drives privately a 996 Turbo and he also races it on the track. IF there is a good suspension setup for Porsche cars, H&R makes it.

    Sep 27, 2002 5:40:55 AM

    Loren
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    Reply to: testdrv321

    Re: Posing

    Here is a height and alignment comparision of Porsche 996 suspensions. As RC said X74 is factory install only.






    Sep 27, 2002 1:41:56 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Loren

    Thanks, Loren...

    ...very good job.

    Sep 27, 2002 4:39:40 PM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    I'm still skeptical, don't get me wrong, it will be a wonderful thing, but it will take a major commitment by PCNA to federalize the different engine and I'm still not sure they are willing to do that for 300? units. I sure hope they do as it will hopefully be the beginning of a change in philosophy.

    There is no disagreeing that the M96 is a second rate motor, but as I said, it was my only choice. I did not want a turbo as I wanted the lighter weight, no PSM, no AWD, narrow body, etc. Hence why the GT3 would have been perfect. Regardless I'm very happy with my choice. And even at $117k USD, its still a bargain. A similiar turbo with all the options would have cost me close to $150k!

    I'll post details on the X74/GT3 sway combo once its installed. PAG recommends alot of things, but if we listened to them, our cars would look like mine does now... a 4x4 rally car not a sports car. I conisdered H&R but particularly the new clubsport coil overs they are supposed to come out with for the 02/03, but they were not available yet so I went with the X74. If I am dissapointed, I can always change.

    I was curious to see you mention in another post that the GT3 was only putting out 340-350 hp, any details on actual rear wheel dyno #'s? I'm going to dyno mine soon and would love to have a basis for comparison.

    Thanx :-)

    Sep 27, 2002 6:10:32 PM

    RCA
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Can't say much about rear wheel dyno results on the GT3. I can tell you however a lot about engine testing dyno results and those weren't impressive at all. None of the tested engines had 360 HP.

    Regarding the number 300: where do you have it from. From my knowledge, the new GT3 won't be limited...same as with the GT2. As long as there is demand, they'll build it.

    Don't always trust what dealers tell you...some of them just want to sell their cars.

    Sep 27, 2002 6:49:35 PM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    I have not heard anything from about the US. I know the allocations were published for ROW, believe it was 450 units. So my best estimate is 300. I beg to differ that they will make as many as they can order. Even on regular cars, there are allocations to work within. My local dealer sells out of all their cars. Come April, this year, their lot was empty and all they had to offer was a order for an 03. Even Fords and other marques have allocations and limits. How many units do you think PCNA would sell unlimited in the US in 1 year? Figure out how much it would cost them to federalize the GT1 motor and figure out the per car cost... tough to justify for 1 year. The GT2 is a TT motor so it was supposedly a pass thru. I don't think they count it as the same as the normally aspired motor. What do you think they will do with ride height and seats in the US GT3? The seats are not DOT and the ride height has always, until the GT2 been blocked from the US for warranty claims issues - too many lost front bumpers.

    Sep 28, 2002 3:09:45 AM

    RCA
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    Re: testdrv321...

    GT2 blocked from US for warranty claims issues? Could you be more precise? Lost front bumpers?

    As you said, the GT2's engine is a slightly modified TT engine.
    But the TT engine, is a turbo charged GT3 engine.
    Porsche does profit from TT/GT2 production figures when it comes to using the normally aspirated version on the new GT3. It is practically the same engine without turbo chargers and incl. some minor mods.

    I really don't understand why there are so little allocations for the US. There must be a reason for that. Maybe PCNA just doesn't want to flood the US market with the most attractive Porsche models to avoid making "regular" Porsche models out of them. I really don't understand this strategy.
    Or maybe they don't get more allocations from Porsche Germany but I actually can't believe that. The US is the most important market for Porsche, especially now when the Cayenne shows up.

    Sep 28, 2002 3:51:52 AM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    PCNA does alot of weird things here that are beyond explanation. As it was explained to me many of PCNA's decisions come from a annual 'dealers meetings' and items such as the power kit are voted on whether or not to offer. In the past most of these items have been turned down as the dealers consider them unsaleable. The lower suspensions have supposedly been witheld not due to bumper regs but due to dealer concerns over too many customers grinding the bottoms off of the cars. The GT2 being exclusive enough, they probably figured it was acceptable at the lower ride heights. Keep in mind that the roads and driveway entrances over here often leave a little to be desired. Many of the dealers over here have traditionally had 'extra' charges on the limited run vehicles. GT2's were going for $220k over here in the beginning. Artificial demand by limiting production. There was also a limit on x51 cars... 110 in the US according to PCNA. As for the GT3 motor being similiar, it is, but DOT does not look at it that way over here. The RS America had power windows over here because DOT instisted that swithcing to manual windows would change the side impact characteristics and PCNA would have to resubmit the car for crash testing... something that would have cost a ton of money. Keep in mind that the GT3 seats are not DOT approvable and that the engine would have to be emissions certified as it is technically different that the TT motor. I'm still not sure how they handle the power kits, if they are recertified or outside the system somehow. The limits on GT2 and power kits may also have to do with DOT or EPA requirments only kicking in after so many vehicles (sub 100 exempt or something) not too sure, but some thoughts.

    Sep 30, 2002 4:09:04 PM

    Tpup
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Engines have nothing to do with DOT. If Porsche has an approved engine test cell, they can test the motor and EPA will approve it for US distribution. It is safe to assume that Porsche does have an approved test cell as Lotus does. I work closely with Lotus and can tell you for a fact that they test their engines and submit data to EPA and the engine will be approved. Any changes to the body of the car, or the seats, are a very different, and very expensive story. If Lotus wanted to import their sport seats (simular to the GT3 seats), they have to re-crash test the car with the seat in every available position to astertain if they pass current test standards. In their case, they cannot justify crashing that many cars for a seat that won't sell over 100 sets.

    Getting the GT3 approved for the US is not going to be a big issue. I am told they will build 450 GT3s for the US.

    Tpup

    Sep 30, 2002 4:26:07 PM

    Grant
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    Thanks, Tpup - How do you like driving the Exige vs. P-cars?

    Sep 30, 2002 4:33:44 PM

    Tpup
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    Re: Thanks, Tpup - How do you like driving the Exige vs. P-cars?

    The Exige is a great track car. I have not driven a 73 S or RS but they are probably simular. The Exige weights 1700 pounds full of fuel and I run a 190hp spec engine (upgrading this winter to 225 or 240). The car is great on the track as it weighs very little. I also have a TT and a Cab and can say the Exige is faster on the track with me driving. I can run low 1:40s at Road Atlanta, one of their instructors feels he could get my car in the high 1:30s. In a recent Panorama, one of the top Porsche guys ran a 1:39 in a stock TT.

    I bought the Lotus because I did not want to run my P cars on the track, just too much abuse for my tastes. The Lotus, for the money, is a great track car imo.

    You can check out tons of photos of my track rat at www.lotussource.com. Go to the "Model Specs", "Exige" and click on the "Photos of my Exige" at the bottom...

    Thanks

    Sep 30, 2002 4:54:23 PM

    Grant
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    Very cool website - well, I have a 73 911S and I appreciate

    the comparison to the Exige, but the 73S weighs 2,350 lbs, so you're being kind. I'm sure the Exige would smoke it at the track (with the better power/weight and the much more modern and improved suspension). I'd love to have an Exige, but I like to drive my cars to the track and it's hard to get them licensed (is yours street-legal?). Also, in Denver, the smaller displacement higher-revving motors really gasp for breath in the thin air - I have an 88 944 Turbo S for the track...

    -Grant

    Sep 30, 2002 7:24:41 PM

    testdrv321
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    Reply to: Tpup

    Re: testdrv321...

    I am aware that DOT is different than EPA, you need all of their stickers on the car. They may be better off with the new motor. I was recently told that the old GT3 motor could not pass emissions standards, maybe why it was not brought here. Also part of the supposed reason why it was discontinued in EU. I assume any new motor would be build to higher standards and they have supposedly taken big steps with the new 3.6l to a cleaner buring engine. Correct me if I am wrong, the GT3's all came with the GT3 style seats? That would make 450 cars and if anything else is different enough then they would still need a crash test. Which I guess is the most expensive part of the project? Since you know some more about this. When they do a mod like the power kits, do they have to submit new test results on the engine to EPA? Is there a minimum under which its expemt?

    Sep 30, 2002 9:09:24 PM

    Tpup
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Hey,

    On the seat issue, my guess would be that they only offer the US GT3 with the sport seats (like they did on the GT2). On your second question (performance changes to the motor), I don't know but I'll find out tomorrow and let you know.

    Roy

    Oct 1, 2002 3:40:00 AM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Thanks, I'm curious to know especially since the CO on my car shows 320 hp not 345. Maybe they skirt it as added 'post construction' by Exclusive?

    A GT2 or a GT3 with sport seats is SAD :-( need real seats and a cage option in a car like that.

    Oct 1, 2002 2:07:56 PM

    LG1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: testdrv321...

    I've heard that the GT3 engine is extremely sensitive to how the break in has been done, the difference between a properly broken in car and one trashed from day one could be as high as 15 hp!!!But even the most carefully broken in models were a little shy of the quoted 360 hp.(Still a bloody marvellous car!!!)

    Oct 1, 2002 2:23:44 PM

    RCA
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Just a moment: your car documents say 320 HP and not 345?
    Do the following: there is a sticker under your front hood. This sticker shows different numbers, it is actually the sticker which shows which options are installed on your car.
    Take a picture of this sticker or just name the numbers.
    If you don't see X51 on that sticker, your car definetely has NO X51 installed. I'm curious to hear about the results.
    The X51 kit is NOT post construction, the engine is added like all the other engines during normal production. Only special install work (like special leather work) is done post production at Exclusice department.

    Oct 1, 2002 2:56:32 PM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    The car is an X51 car. It has all the right parts in the right places. The certificate of origin is a sheet printed by the auto manufacturer that is used for registering the car, etc. It has HP, seats, weight etc. on it. They info is usually inaccurate on it. For example, any C2, any combination will say 2910 lbs for the weight. Regardless of sunroof or not, sport seats or full power, etc. All items that would change the actual weight. My guess on the CO is that like the weight, the HP is just their standard print and they only change the VIN. Anyone have a X50 or GT2 that could verify this?

    It is my understanding that there was some differentiation between the factory and 'exclusive' options. I know the motors are completed pre installation and on the same assembly line as the TT, GT2 motors. I was curious if there was any legal benefit to doing things semi-seperate at the 'exclusive' building instead of the main plant because it is not part of 'manufacturer' of some weird thing like that. Anyhting on the exclusive side of the sticker is done at the exclusive building? The X51 is on the regular option side. So much for that thought.

    Oct 1, 2002 3:11:08 PM

    RCA
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    Re: testdrv321...

    In reply to:
    I was curious if there was any legal benefit to doing things semi-seperate at the 'exclusive' building instead of the main plant because it is not part of 'manufacturer' of some weird thing like that. Anyhting on the exclusive side of the sticker is done at the exclusive building? The X51 is on the regular option side. So much for that thought.



    Sorry but I think I don't understand you fully.
    So does your sticker under the front hood state the X51?

    Oct 1, 2002 4:07:41 PM

    testdrv321
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    Re: testdrv321...

    Yes, its on the sticker under the hood, the window sticker, the car has the aluminum intake manifold, larger headers and the 3rd radiator... it is definitely an X51.

    My interest was whether PAG was able to skirt certain homologation or other regulations by doing certain mods as 'exclusive' as compared to being part of the original vehicle manufacture.
     
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