Crown

I never said it was. 

In Europe and other parts of the world (with the exception of the US...maybe), the Tesla brand name won't help once BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, etc. will offer their own electric cars. On the contrary, Tesla will be history (unless they offer advanced tech at an affordable price but right now, I don't see that happen when I look at their profit margin).

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

In Europe and other parts of the world (with the exception of the US...maybe), the Tesla brand name won't help once BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, etc. will offer their own electric cars. On the contrary, Tesla will be history (unless they offer advanced tech at an affordable price but right now, I don't see that happen when I look at their profit margin).

+1

2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White

How about we just wait and see how powerful their brand is? As of right now it's undeniable that their brand is very powerful. Besides, it doesn't matter what all those Germans come up with, RC, because your position is that EVs don't work in Europe in the first place and the vast majority of people can't live with them.

noone1:

How about we just wait and see how powerful their brand is? As of right now it's undeniable that their brand is very powerful. Besides, it doesn't matter what all those Germans come up with, RC, because your position is that EVs don't work in Europe in the first place and the vast majority of people can't live with them.

They don't really work for now and regarding the Tesla brand, I know the mentality of people here and how they judge US made cars. If they'd have alternatives to Tesla, they wouldn't buy Tesla.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

RC:

noone1:

How about we just wait and see how powerful their brand is? As of right now it's undeniable that their brand is very powerful. Besides, it doesn't matter what all those Germans come up with, RC, because your position is that EVs don't work in Europe in the first place and the vast majority of people can't live with them.

They don't really work for now and regarding the Tesla brand, I know the mentality of people here and how they judge US made cars. If they'd have alternatives to Tesla, they wouldn't buy Tesla.

They do work now, RC. Just not for you and a bunch of ppl in here . For many others and their every day driving patterns it does actually make more sense than a car with combustion engine.

Tesla is a Silicon Valley company building a computer with wheels and disrupting the car industry which is quite different from old Detroit and their history of building ICE-cars. Just look at other Valley companies like Apple, etc and their brand perception in Europe. Tesla is a strong brand connected with electric mobility, Volkswagen for instance is not.

Time will tell what happens with Tesla and how the different business areas evolve over time. Tesla have already proven that things considered impossible wasn't which on its own is quite impressive. The entire Model 3 thing will probably be sorted in due course because there are people with a lot of money that want Tesla to be successful even though there are a lot of people who proclaim the opposite. A 6 month delay is not much in the scheme of things and Model X was 18 months delayed. They burn a lot of cash, but is that a surprise with the high targets they have and the enormous costs related to ramp up and prepare for mass production?

And regarding Model 3 competition, there is to my knowledge none of the German companies that will have a volume product on the market in the same price bracket as the Model 3 within the next 5 years? They will release cars to market, but with very limited production numbers.

And oh... There are pretty reliable rumors that a new interior for Model S/X and a refresh of the Model S rear is coming in Q2 2018.

Tesla in Europe has 0 brand value except maybe for some circles in Britain. Given and equal product by a German maker (or even a French maker ) people here would choose hands down the known car maker European brand instead of Tesla. Not taking about the product itself but just about the comment above that Tesla has the brand name going for it when competition his the market but other manufacturers.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Maybe that’s true for Spain but Tesla does have a brand value in France and I am assuming the EV has some value with the greens in Germany. No pun intended but it seems likely the EV adoption would start with the richest countries and more green in Europe then move on to the south last...

The real current problem for Tesla outside of UK and Germany is that very few have the money to buy one. That will change with the model 3.

SciFrog:

The real current problem for Tesla outside of UK and Germany is that very few have the money to buy one. That will change with the model 3.

Sorry to say this, but you clearly do not have a clue about Europe, its natives and culture.

Even in my poor country Croatia I see Tesla S examples with local plates on daily basis. Good friend of mine owns it(and has become Tesla fanatic). My wife drives e-Golf VII. There are tons of stupid hybrids on my local streets. 

But, I must admit that I am way more impressed with latest Panamera 4S Diesel then with my wife's e-Golf...

No offense Kreso but I do have a clue about Europe except Northern Europe (like Sweden)... You have been here a long time, as long as I have but it might have escaped you that I am born and raised French and only moved to the USA for work 20+ years ago. I still don’t have an American passport. Further more, ALL my family is spread between France, Italy and Switzerland and most my long time real friends are either in France, Switzerland or the UK. I travel often to Europe and talk with a lot of people. I have even have the pleasure to visit your beautiful country although that was before Tesla existed  Sorry to say but I find it a bit shallow to make a personal attack on someone’s opinion without knowing or remembering anything about that person except the small tag in the left column...

I understand Tesla is a divise subject, you hate it or you love it. That often happen with companies that rewrite the whole rule book of the business world. I also see a real old world vs new world mentality coming from Europeans towards Tesla. To make it simple, they are jealous that Tesla came from the USA and not Europe. With all the green and leftist European gouvernements, they could not achieve what Tesla has done in a right wing liberal country.

Croatia has very rich enclaves, but that does not make a Tesla S or X an affordable vehicle for the masses...

I stand corrected. 

And BTW, as city commuter nothing is close to ELVs. Well, I still like big Diesels...

Oh and thank you for your great contribution in this forum. I value you as one of the most valuable opinion here... That doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything though 

SciFrog:

Oh and thank you for your great contribution in this forum. I value you as one of the most valuable opinion here... That doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything though 

Thank you for providing different perspective in this forum. I like your style a lot. Especially about 4 seat Ferrari's.

KresoF1:

SciFrog:

Oh and thank you for your great contribution in this forum. I value you as one of the most valuable opinion here... That doesn’t mean we have to agree on everything though 

Thank you for providing different perspective in this forum. I like your style a lot. Especially about 4 seat Ferrari's.

 

Major marks for him not using the meh thing

Oh, get a room guys 

SciFrog:

No offense Kreso but I do have a clue about Europe except Northern Europe (like Sweden)... You have been here a long time, as long as I have but it might have escaped you that I am born and raised French and only moved to the USA for work 20+ years ago. I still don’t have an American passport. Further more, ALL my family is spread between France, Italy and Switzerland and most my long time real friends are either in France, Switzerland or the UK. I travel often to Europe and talk with a lot of people. I have even have the pleasure to visit your beautiful country although that was before Tesla existed  Sorry to say but I find it a bit shallow to make a personal attack on someone’s opinion without knowing or remembering anything about that person except the small tag in the left column...

Ironically I do have a US passport but those 20 years the you have been living in the US is an eternity and coincidentally the time I have been living in Europe, and "visiting" here since does not give you the same perspective. Furthermore Spain due to its tourism and jet set vacationing spot is the top markets for high-end cars in Europe, though Tesla is not in that category though.

I wasn't criticizing the product like I said, just the brand image and here in Europe Tesla as an auto maker has none, at least not compared to actual European makers who do have brand loyalty, penetration and reputation. Tesla has none of that. And people couldn't care less if its American or Japanese

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te6VqldjTT8

A few odd design choices but otherwise I think it's a pretty solid design and nice choice in the segment.

The back window only going half way its kinda ridiculous.

Yea, I thought the same. Pretty dumb, though not the end of the world or terribly relevant to most people.

Carlos from Spain:

I wasn't criticizing the product like I said, just the brand image and here in Europe Tesla as an auto maker has none, at least not compared to actual European makers who do have brand loyalty, penetration and reputation. Tesla has none of that. And people couldn't care less if its American or Japanese

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⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Tesla is being admired hugely over here . They do not have the same type of car brand image as the European car makers but they do have a very strong  image . People know probably more about Tesla then the latest BMW or Audi . 

They could disappear , as  loyalty has not yet been acquired , but if they carry on a bit longer, if people start buying model 3 with the S then slowly they'll gain that . On my daily commute I see probably more Tesla then any BMW series 5 or MB series E  .  And they way even non owners talk about them, is with huge respect and admiration ( talking general public not car fans ) 

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Makes sense for your area but Switzerland does not represent the majority of Europe though, and as you mentioned even in such a place with "Swiss mentality" and swiss traffic laws which is perfect for EV's, it doesn't yet have brand loyalty. As soon a AUDI or Porsche or Merc or whatever put out an equal product, nobody would go for the Tesla. That is on the condition that the product is at least equal to what Tesla offers, since like i mentioned before, I'm not talking good or bad about the product, just the brand image itself.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

I think it is the same in the Netherlands. Tesla does have a brand image, it doesn't have brand loyalty (yet).

A lot of people are interested in them, they like the looks and the luxurious interior (since they are heavily subsidized by the government here, these are people who would normally drive a VW sedan or lower level bmw), and average Joe knows about them because they are somewhat of a novelty still.

I think this could swing the other way quite quickly if Tesla keeps mucking up the production of the model 3. That is not something that the man on the street here really knows about, but when it becomes worse and public knowledge, I think the novelty factor will turn around into something like "Ah Tesla... yeah, they made some nice cars, but were overambitious and couldn't make it in the end".

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Carlos from Spain:

Makes sense for your area but Switzerland does not represent the majority of Europe though, and as you mentioned even in such a place with "Swiss mentality" and swiss traffic laws which is perfect for EV's, it doesn't yet have brand loyalty. As soon a AUDI or Porsche or Merc or whatever put out an equal product, nobody would go for the Tesla. That is on the condition that the product is at least equal to what Tesla offers, since like i mentioned before, I'm not talking good or bad about the product, just the brand image itself.

In Germany, Tesla's image is clear: Expensive luxury ELVs. Once BMW, Mercedes and Co. do the same, Tesla will be just remembered as a US car maker, which is bad in Germany.

US cars have no market in Germany (and many other parts of Europe), only US car selling well is the Ford Mustang but only because it is marketed as a world car and sold through German Ford dealerships (which do not sell other US cars).  Another successful US car may be the Jeep Grand Cherokee but the Diesel version only.

Bottom line is: Tesla profits from the ELV image right now but this is it.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

Tesla Delays Some Model 3 Deliveries Even More

As we first reported last last week, Tesla https://insideevs.com/tesla-delays-model-3-deliveries/"pushed back delivery dates for a large chunk of Model 3 reservation holders.  Most of those delays were connected to reservation holders expected to  take delivery late this year. Those delivery dates slipped from  an expected delivery of Nov 2017 – Jan 2018 to a new timeframe of Dec 2017 – Feb 2018.

 

Well, as of earlier today, or late last night for some, those dates  have been pushed back again and it now seems the delay encompasses a  greater amount of Model 3 reservation holders.

 Those who were initially promised delivery in Nov 2017 – Jan 2018 and  had been pushed back to the new timeframe of Dec 2017 – Feb 2018 are  now reporting even more slippage. Some have a new delivery  timeframe as far out as Jan 2018 – March 2018. That’s for Day 1  reservation, residing in California and currently a Tesla owner.  Other non-Tesla owners who reside outside of California are reporting  that their delivery timeframes shifted from March 2018 – April 2018 to  just a vague early 2018 estimate.

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/10/bernstein-analyst-finds-tesla-model-3s-fit-and-finish-relatively-poor-after-test-drive.html

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

And 90% of buyers won’t care

Tesla Model S P100D & Model X P90D & 2016 BMW i8 & 2017 Sept 991.2 GT3 ordered. 2020 Porsche Mission E on order

Those problems will not go well with people who will be 2 years on the wait list, no matter how much they love the company. In 2 years, once there are alternatives better than the bolt, people will jump ship. It is not easy to build high quality cars or else everyone would have good quality cars and Tesla are starting to realize it. Once Lexus, Audi, Porsche, even Jaguar start selling their electric cars, it would be very hard to pick a Tesla over them.

In cell phone terms, Tesla is the first mass market cell phone, the Motorola brick.

it’s hip and fashionable to have one right now.

But once other manufacturers start making cell phones, there will be more choices better choices.

who is using a Motorola cell phone right now? Nobody. 

Motorola was actually selling tons of phones for a very long time before they became a nobody. So in that case, VW and Porsche will catch up in about 15 years lol

Tesla is selling tons of cars right now, just not the Model 3

If you are counting 15 years, Tesla might implode before competition wipe it out. Notice the cash burn rate? They will need another round of funding soon and they just did a round not long ago.