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    Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    one of the Germans on Rennlist has it that WR is busy today

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2



    Add 4-5 sec. and you'll SportAuto time which means only a couple of sec. faster than 996 GT2.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Fantastic times! I love howw people can be negative about this time What do you want 7:20? In a road car? Get real.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    What was negative dummy?

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Sorry , overeacted a bit, needed to get my morning cup of coffee. Your post just reminded me of so many people blasting the 997tt for slow ring times and how it was only a little faster than the 996tt. These cars are incredibly fast and are not designed specifically for the fastest lap times. They are meant to be driven on road and track.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    No prob. 7:41-42's makes it the fastest car in its price/power segment.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Very true, those would be some seriously impressive times.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Sorry , overeacted a bit, needed to get my morning cup of coffee. Your post just reminded me of so many people blasting the 997tt for slow ring times and how it was only a little faster than the 996tt. These cars are incredibly fast and are not designed specifically for the fastest lap times. They are meant to be driven on road and track.



    Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage

    In case of the 997GT2: let's wait for the sportauto test. Rumours from the factory are not too credible. Just remember the "unofficial" 997TT NBR time which was far, far off the truth

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Sad to say it, but Porsche is starting to lose its edge. The competition is getting tougher. 2008-2009 will be interesting for cars since the Nissan GT-R, M3 CSL, Audi RS8, Supercharged z06 will be coming out.

    Their "marketing" team has succeeded in promoting adequate times for the current Porsche line up (Carrera GT>GT2>GT3>Turbo>Carrera S), but when is Porsche going to wow us again and start breaking/setting records??!?!!

    Hopefully Porsche ups the ante!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage




    Yeh, and nostalgia is not what it used to be either.

    I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?

    - The preoccupation with lap times of street-legal cars is a relatively new fashion. How long has sport auto's Supertest been run in its current format featuring N'ring Nordschleife and Hockenheimring Short Lap times? 10 or 12 years? In that time, the 911 GT3 and GT2 models have featured prominently with good results, from what I remember?

    - Track Day events for private drivers using road cars are also something which have become much more popular in recent years, increasing the focus on availability of suitable specialized track/street cars. This has prompted companies like Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Lotus, etc., to offer special variants of road models for this market.

    - When in the past did Porsche offer and sell as many performance-oriented road cars comparable to the GT3 and GT2 models or the recent Carrera GT? For those who want a stripped-out totally track-oriented version of the 911, the Carrera Cup is also available.


    What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.




    Wow! You read my mind! Well said.

    I'm no Walter Rohl but when stacked up against good sports car drivers, compared to most people I know I'm better. I'm really growing tired of the constant negativity and the belly aching. The growns of people you could just tell never had these cars at 50% nevermind 90% and they're complaining and crying about performance or styling. And the negativity and just overall bitching seems to get people to follow along like sheep, it becomes cooler to cry about this and suddenly instead of thinking for themelves the belly aching apparently becomes the safe position or side to be on. I've never much cared to be in the majority or pile on just because that's what everyone else is saying so it just gets so boring and tiresome you want to slap some of these people (not really but a soft backhand bitch slap would be good) out of their moaning. It's a freakin Porsche Turbo/GT2 whatever a car w/ over 500 ft lbs of torque and 99.9% of the population would dream to own. I mean I was buying used Trans Am's not too long ago (okay so I was 18 yrs old but still) to be able to own cars like this I still feel like I'm a dream and dont want to wake up, I feel luckier than hell so when I read all this boo whoo this boooo whoo that it's like you want to shake the guy and yell in his face "wake up you spoiled jaded brat!!" Poor me, the spoiler is too big, boo whooo the wheels aren't the right shape, OMG there's too much stitching on the dash.... Geeeeezzz. I just don't get it. I'm not a fan of BMW but I don't hang out and spend all my time on BMW boards just to complain and bitch about the way those cars look wtf would make people do that? If you're not here because you love these cars what the hell are you here for to vent??????? Yeah, I know if you can't complain here about sports cars where are you going to do it, it's just seems to have turned into a complain-a-thon lately about such stupid stuff.. Whoooppsss went off there for a minute. Sorry. Okay, I'm good. LoL!!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    chuckd said:
    Sad to say it, but Porsche is starting to lose its edge. The competition is getting tougher. 2008-2009 will be interesting for cars since the Nissan GT-R, M3 CSL, Audi RS8, Supercharged z06 will be coming out.




    Just read today that Lexus will also launch a 500hp+ sportscar soon. In addition, MB will launch a 500hp sportscar and BMW is likely to build the M10...

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage




    I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?




    Agreed, it is a huge advantage to have some people on board who can relate about the pre-world war period based on own experiences

    P.S.: Just compare Ferrari or Lamborghini today to what these companies were 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. Unlike Porsche the Italian manufactureres are in a different league today

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.



    Well, I have thought it through enough to base my own buying decisions on these thoughts

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage




    I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?




    Agreed, it is a huge advantage to have some people on board who can relate about the pre-world war period based on own experiences

    P.S.: Just compare Ferrari or Lamborghini today to what these companies were 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. Unlike Porsche the Italian manufactureres are in a different league today



    If Ferrari and Lamborghini had existed as brands pre-war then I sure as hell would not be the one to remember them but I do remember that there was such a car as a Lamborghini Miura before that brand get prostituted for a couple of decades.
    I doubt that many people thought of the Porsche 911 as being in the same class as the contemporary Ferrari and Maserati models when the Italiens managed to get things right. It's just that in that era Italien supercars were a little too "exotic" for the German market, so it had to be satisfied with Alfa Romeos.

    I won't even mention the 300SL.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.




    Wow! You read my mind! Well said.

    I'm no Walter Rohl but when stacked up against good sports car drivers, compared to most people I know I'm better. I'm really growing tired of the constant negativity and the belly aching. The growns of people you could just tell never had these cars at 50% nevermind 90% and they're complaining and crying about performance or styling. And the negativity and just overall bitching seems to get people to follow along like sheep, it becomes cooler to cry about this and suddenly instead of thinking for themelves the belly aching apparently becomes the safe position or side to be on. I've never much cared to be in the majority or pile on just because that's what everyone else is saying so it just gets so boring and tiresome you want to slap some of these people (not really but a soft backhand bitch slap would be good) out of their moaning. It's a freakin Porsche Turbo/GT2 whatever a car w/ over 500 ft lbs of torque and 99.9% of the population would dream to own. I mean I was buying used Trans Am's not too long ago (okay so I was 18 yrs old but still) to be able to own cars like this I still feel like I'm a dream and dont want to wake up, I feel luckier than hell so when I read all this boo whoo this boooo whoo that it's like you want to shake the guy and yell in his face "wake up you spoiled jaded brat!!" Poor me, the spoiler is too big, boo whooo the wheels aren't the right shape, OMG there's too much stitching on the dash.... Geeeeezzz. I just don't get it. I'm not a fan of BMW but I don't hang out and spend all my time on BMW boards just to complain and bitch about the way those cars look wtf would make people do that? If you're not here because you love these cars what the hell are you here for to vent??????? Yeah, I know if you can't complain here about sports cars where are you going to do it, it's just seems to have turned into a complain-a-thon lately about such stupid stuff.. Whoooppsss went off there for a minute. Sorry. Okay, I'm good. LoL!!




    Well, I'm glad I helped you get that off your chest. I think.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.




    Wow! You read my mind! Well said.

    I'm no Walter Rohl but when stacked up against good sports car drivers, compared to most people I know I'm better. I'm really growing tired of the constant negativity and the belly aching. The growns of people you could just tell never had these cars at 50% nevermind 90% and they're complaining and crying about performance or styling. And the negativity and just overall bitching seems to get people to follow along like sheep, it becomes cooler to cry about this and suddenly instead of thinking for themelves the belly aching apparently becomes the safe position or side to be on. I've never much cared to be in the majority or pile on just because that's what everyone else is saying so it just gets so boring and tiresome you want to slap some of these people (not really but a soft backhand bitch slap would be good) out of their moaning. It's a freakin Porsche Turbo/GT2 whatever a car w/ over 500 ft lbs of torque and 99.9% of the population would dream to own. I mean I was buying used Trans Am's not too long ago (okay so I was 18 yrs old but still) to be able to own cars like this I still feel like I'm a dream and dont want to wake up, I feel luckier than hell so when I read all this boo whoo this boooo whoo that it's like you want to shake the guy and yell in his face "wake up you spoiled jaded brat!!" Poor me, the spoiler is too big, boo whooo the wheels aren't the right shape, OMG there's too much stitching on the dash.... Geeeeezzz. I just don't get it. I'm not a fan of BMW but I don't hang out and spend all my time on BMW boards just to complain and bitch about the way those cars look wtf would make people do that? If you're not here because you love these cars what the hell are you here for to vent??????? Yeah, I know if you can't complain here about sports cars where are you going to do it, it's just seems to have turned into a complain-a-thon lately about such stupid stuff.. Whoooppsss went off there for a minute. Sorry. Okay, I'm good. LoL!!




    Well, I'm glad I helped you get that off your chest. I think.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    What has changed is that, thanks to the internet, people who have not really thought things through have a forum for complaining about the perceived lack of superiority of the performance of Porsche cars and there are always other people who have also not really analyzed the validity of the views expressed but are ready to join in the feeding frenzy.



    Well, I have thought it through enough to base my own buying decisions on these thoughts



    Only started buying interesting new cars in past <10 yrs....so, perhaps too young to know these "good ole days" from an ownership/driving perspective, but, from what my elders tell me, P/F from 10+ yrs ago were like the slide rule/typewriter&white-out/rotary-dial phone, etc....gruesome stuff indeed....

    Agree....Internet has created an unprecedented public forum for uninformed, resource-constrained people to whine about styling or post silly "kill"/public road-racing stories (presumably before jail or maybe from a prison cell somewhere ).....

    But would argue, pre-rennteam, mfrs never had much direct feedback from sophisticated buyers/drivers....

    Archaic car magazines have always been fairly worthless in terms of a valid perspective (vs what a jaded owner/driver may actually observe in daily, amateur driving on various public, urban roads...and, after calc'g cost of ownership upon trade-in, determine own "net" enjoyment value derived from car )....mfrs (via ad revs) have always underwritten the meager paychecks of auto journalists...and they don't hand out those journalist jobs to just anyone....

    Automotive tech/safety/perf/daily-useability has dramatically increased in past 5 yrs ; overall advances are laudable, but any glaring lack of advances, e.g., P's Luddite gearboxes/F's dubious passive safety, needs to also be observed/criticized....

    Competition is great for the consumer....if a mfr seems to lag in delivering innovation, driving enjoyment and value, a savvy consumer simply will purchase a car from the mfr(s) that is/are producing the best products....ultimately, mkt (esp savvy, frequent buyers) will determine (by sales and profitability) which mfrs are producing the best overall product for custs....and forums like rennteam are a great resource for mfrs' executives/engineers/marketers to better understand what many actual buyers are concluding re: their products...and those of direct competitors...

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Porsches used to be designed for optimum performance and track times in the past. Today, this no longer applies. It is essential that this is critizied on boards like Rennteam. If Porsche shall not refocus their cars will just be crappy life style products at some stage




    I often wonder if the myth about Porsches in the past having performance so far superior to all other contemporary cars circulates among people who are just too young to know that it was not the case?




    Agreed, it is a huge advantage to have some people on board who can relate about the pre-world war period based on own experiences

    P.S.: Just compare Ferrari or Lamborghini today to what these companies were 5, 10 or even 15 years ago. Unlike Porsche the Italian manufactureres are in a different league today



    If Ferrari and Lamborghini had existed as brands pre-war then I sure as hell would not be the one to remember them but I do remember that there was such a car as a Lamborghini Miura before that brand get prostituted for a couple of decades.
    I doubt that many people thought of the Porsche 911 as being in the same class as the contemporary Ferrari and Maserati models when the Italiens managed to get things right. It's just that in that era Italien supercars were a little too "exotic" for the German market, so it had to be satisfied with Alfa Romeos.

    I won't even mention the 300SL.



    Just one example (not from the world-war period but more recent ): I still have a magazine test (dated 1993 or so) comparing 993TT with the then top ranking Ferrari 512M (!). The 993TT literally killed the Ferrari. I have another track test where the predecessor of the 993TT dominated the 512TR (predecessor of 512M).

    Now look at what Porsche offers today: a 997TT with crappy PTM, mediocre PASM, old gear-box and performance below some of those Italian (and even US) competitors which were not even close to Porsche's perfection 5 or 10 years ago

    I am really annoyed. Porsche is just plain average today

    I would have loved to buy the 997TT before the first infos of the car were announced. Today, I am glad I did not buy it. My intution was right. I am afraid the same might happen in case of the GT2 (although I still hope for good GT2 test results).

    If Ruf did not exist I would not buy any Porsche cars at all as the Italians offer better performing cars today

    Zuffenhausen needs to wake up. The only way to make this happen is to complain as much as possible about their recent product news

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    WBH said:
    ....and forums like rennteam are a great resource for mfrs' executives/engineers/marketers to better understand what many actual buyers are concluding re: their products...and those of direct competitors...



    Maybe, but professionals like those are aware of the "noise-to-signal ratios" involved in information sources like clinics or the internet. They would apply their own "plausibility check" to what they hear and would filter out much of the content, leaving just the things they wanted to hear in the first place anyway.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    WBH said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Agree....Internet has created an unprecedented public forum for uninformed,



    The Internet is also an excellent platform for the informed to inform and influence the uninformed

    Thus, the Internet is a huge threat to those car manufacturers trying to mislead uninformed buyers. Inadequate product developments are much more difficult to hide nowadays

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Just one example (not from the world-war period but more recent ): I still have a magazine test (dated 1993 or so) comparing 993TT with the then top ranking Ferrari 512M (!). The 993TT literally killed the Ferrari. I have another track test where the predecessor of the 993TT dominated the 512TR (predecessor of 512M).

    Now look at what Porsche offers today: a 997TT with crappy PTM, mediocre PASM, old gear-box and performance below some of those Italian (and even US) competitors which were not even close to Porsche's perfection 5 or 10 years ago

    I am really annoyed. Porsche is just plain average today

    I would have loved to buy the 997TT before the first infos of the car were announced. Today, I am glad I did not buy it. My intution was right. I am afraid the same might happen in case of the GT2 (although I still hope for good GT2 test results).

    If Ruf did not exist I would not buy any Porsche cars at all as the Italians offer better performing cars today

    Zuffenhausen needs to wake up. The only way to make this happen is to complain as much as possible about their recent product news



    What he said.
    Porsche is getting cornered by the cheaper Z06 and the more expensive 599. The GT2 is their last change to shine, the TT just looks so unintersting, where is the dream?

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    ... but professionals like those are aware of the "noise-to-signal ratios" involved in information sources like clinics or the internet. They would apply their own "plausibility check" to what they hear and would filter out much of the content, leaving just the things they wanted to hear in the first place anyway.



    This, for sure, happens in my business, too.

    There is so much wrong information, mis-information, and even dis-information floating around the web that it takes quite a long time for "the truth" to settle in. A manufacturer that took first-flash info from the web as a guide to action would be at a distinct disadvantage.

    Manufacturers can get a quick read on competitors' moves from the web without having to wait for the sales channel to report via order volume. Web info can be very interesting and even entertaining. But, in the end, it's all about making the cash register ring. If one sells the goods, it's hard to get upset by disappointing web chatter. If the merchandise sits around with no takers, that gets people's attention. Web-derived nuances and attitudes don't make as big an impression as actual cash. That's the real signal in the noise of a market.

    Customers and potential customers that natter about on web forums are often motivated by a desire to get the latest information. It's a form of entertainment. The total appetite for "new and better" generally exceeds the ability of reality to supply it. If the flow of upbeat information is not fast enough or good enough to satiate absolutely everybody, a vacuum is created that sucks disappointment into the void.

    Then starts the bitching and moaning. Its like a bunch of kids on a sugar high that want more, more and more sweet stuff until they crash in the most disagreeable way. Except, one can't merely send ones customers to bed and hide the candy from them.

    From a manufacturer's point of view, trying to deliver more and more goodies to keep a smaller and smaller portion of a customer base satisfied is a fool's errand. It's expensive and tends to distract from the core mission. A business plan looking for long-term sustainability has to try the hardest for the biggest portion of its customers. Web feedback is only one of many tools available to accomplish it.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Web info can be very interesting and even entertaining. But, in the end, it's all about making the cash register ring. If one sells the goods, it's hard to get upset by disappointing web chatter. If the merchandise sits around with no takers, that gets people's attention. Web-derived nuances and attitudes don't make as big an impression as actual cash. That's the real signal in the noise of a market.

    Customers and potential customers that natter about on web forums are often motivated by a desire to get the latest information. It's a form of entertainment. The total appetite for "new and better" generally exceeds the ability of reality to supply it. If the flow of upbeat information is not fast enough or good enough to satiate absolutely everybody, a vacuum is created that sucks disappointment into the void.

    Then starts the bitching and moaning. Its like a bunch of kids on a sugar high that want more, more and more sweet stuff until they crash in the most disagreeable way. Except, one can't merely send ones customers to bed and hide the candy from them.

    From a manufacturer's point of view, trying to deliver more and more goodies to keep a smaller and smaller portion of a customer base satisfied is a fool's errand. It's expensive and tends to distract from the core mission. A business plan looking for long-term sustainability has to try the hardest for the biggest portion of its customers.



    When you are talking about a commercial enterprise, as a opposed to "art-for-art's-sake", it has got to be tough to argue against well-documented financial success sustained over several years, as experienced by Porsche.

    But that will not stop some car enthusiasts thinking that indulging their individual wishes should be a car manufacturer's core mission.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Web info can be very interesting and even entertaining. But, in the end, it's all about making the cash register ring. If one sells the goods, it's hard to get upset by disappointing web chatter. If the merchandise sits around with no takers, that gets people's attention. Web-derived nuances and attitudes don't make as big an impression as actual cash. That's the real signal in the noise of a market.

    Customers and potential customers that natter about on web forums are often motivated by a desire to get the latest information. It's a form of entertainment. The total appetite for "new and better" generally exceeds the ability of reality to supply it. If the flow of upbeat information is not fast enough or good enough to satiate absolutely everybody, a vacuum is created that sucks disappointment into the void.

    Then starts the bitching and moaning. Its like a bunch of kids on a sugar high that want more, more and more sweet stuff until they crash in the most disagreeable way. Except, one can't merely send ones customers to bed and hide the candy from them.

    From a manufacturer's point of view, trying to deliver more and more goodies to keep a smaller and smaller portion of a customer base satisfied is a fool's errand. It's expensive and tends to distract from the core mission. A business plan looking for long-term sustainability has to try the hardest for the biggest portion of its customers.



    When you are talking about a commercial enterprise, as a opposed to "art-for-art's-sake", it has got to be tough to argue against well-documented financial success sustained over several years, as experienced by Porsche.

    But that will not stop some car enthusiasts thinking that indulging their individual wishes should be a car manufacturer's core mission.



    I am sorry to disagree with your analyses.

    1. Porsche's success (today's financials) has been built on technological leadership and excellence. Only recently does Porsche's technological position fall behind its competitors.
    2. Only recently have Porsche's competitors launched competitive sportscars like R8 or Z06. Many others will follow: Lexus, Mercedes, BMW, more Audi etc. etc. Meanwhile, Ferrari and Lamborghini are pushing from above. Thus, the entire competitive environment of Porsche is changing. The pace of change will accelerate in the next 1-3 years.
    3. Porsche is diluting its USP. Technological leadership, the ability to build the fastest and best sportscars etc. have always been a key element in Porsche's marketing and business strategy. Recent product news have discontinued this successful historical strategy. Cars like Cayenne and Panamera also contribute to USP dilution. These cars are positioned outside Porsche's core segment. Competitors in these segments are better qualified to build cars in these segments (just consider some obvious problems at Porsche: lack of Diesel, lack of modern gear technology, lack of state-of-the-art options like adaptive cruise control, sound systems, multimedia integration etc.).

    The combined effect of points 2 and 3 above will (as I expect) put Porsche under substantial pressure. In any industry USP dilution in combination with intensifying competition is a big problem. Porsche will be in trouble not too far from now - if they will not refocus on what has been the basis of their success in the last decade

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    I think Porsches USP is changing. For me it's something like "a high performance car for every niche". I agree you can criticize them for being slow to adopt some gadgets and gizmos, I would love it if my TT was coming with a double clutch gearbox, touch screen nav etc etc. But every car in the high performance market segment is a compromise in one way or another. Personally I don't really care very much about Ring times. I'm interested to read about that stuff but it's totally irrelevant to my driving enjoyment. I want a car with great acceleration in both wet and dry condidions, that looks good but doesn't attract too much attention, that handles well up to the limits of my capabilities, that isn't crazy money to buy within my budget, that is well finished inside and comfortbale. The TT is the only car that comes close to what I want. Guys that want to go faster around a tight track can buy a GT 2 or 3, but for me the TT is pretty much everything I want. To be frank I don't really care too much whether Porshces business model is good or bad (although I think it's great!). I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche. Having said that, at the present time I fully expect to trade my 997 TT on another TT with PDK once the the inevitable early bugs are sorted.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Nickoz said:
    I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.



    You actually confirm my point

    You are pragmatic Porsche buyer (like, probably, the majority of today's Porsche customers). You are not too focused on excellent performance. You just want daily usability some speed and some fun at a reasonable price.

    The thing is: your demand profile can be easily met by several OEMs. In 2 years time you will probably find many alternatives (based on what you are looking for) to buying a Porsche.

    Good for you - bad for Porsche. In such environment Porsche will always be second compared to the big ones (Audi, BMW, MB) and the best (Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.)

    This is what I called "USP dilution" in my previous post.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Nickoz said:
    I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.



    You actually confirm my point

    You are pragmatic Porsche buyer (like, probably, the majority of today's Porsche customers). You are not too focused on excellent performance. You just want daily usability some speed and some fun at a reasonable price.

    The thing is: your demand profile can be easily met by several OEMs. In 2 years time you will probably find many alternatives (based on what you are looking for) to buying a Porsche.

    Good for you - bad for Porsche. In such environment Porsche will always be second compared to the big ones (Audi, BMW, MB) and the best (Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.)

    This is what I called "USP dilution" in my previous post.


    Seprerating porsche from "the best (ferrari/lamborghini)" seems rather opinionated. When I think of the best I picture Porsche/Ferrari in terms of overall enineering, performance, and quality.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    trip said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Nickoz said:
    I'm not wedded to the company. If there's a better car for me from another manufacturer when it comes time to trade my TT I'll buy it and not shed any tears for Porsche.



    You actually confirm my point

    You are pragmatic Porsche buyer (like, probably, the majority of today's Porsche customers). You are not too focused on excellent performance. You just want daily usability some speed and some fun at a reasonable price.

    The thing is: your demand profile can be easily met by several OEMs. In 2 years time you will probably find many alternatives (based on what you are looking for) to buying a Porsche.

    Good for you - bad for Porsche. In such environment Porsche will always be second compared to the big ones (Audi, BMW, MB) and the best (Ferrari, Lamborghini etc.)

    This is what I called "USP dilution" in my previous post.


    Seprerating porsche from "the best (ferrari/lamborghini)" seems rather opinionated. When I think of the best I picture Porsche/Ferrari in terms of overall enineering, performance, and quality.



    Agreed. Today they are still on par with their best competitors

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    What Porsche is doing now may offend purists, but Porsche realised a long time ago that if they continue the previous couse of action: cater to the purists who buy Porsche for their pure tech lead, performane lead, etc, Porsche would be tageting a tiny market and will be very susceptible to changing market condition like in the 80s and hence being an attractive target for takeover.

    To remain independent and be financially successful they have no choice but to cater to a boarder audience, hence the birth of Boxter, Cayman, Cayenne and numerous versions of the 911. This strategy proved to be the correct course of action, it has become the most successful and profitable car maker in the world, and the little Porsche has already taken a controlling interest in Europe's biggest car maker: VW. With that Porsche has basically taken Lambo under it's wings, with Audi as it's stablemate.

    Ferrari is under Fiat's wings and has been for quite some time, so basically Porsche is the only major performance car maker that's independent and will be for quite some time, I would consider that very successful.

    When I shop for my 997TT, I had quite a few choices, from 430 to Gallardo to MB CL/SL and even the Z06. But none of the choices I mentioned gave me the whole package, 430/Gallardo don't have the off the line punch that I want, plus they don't have the backseat, CL/SL just don't have the agiility that I look for, Z06 has the agility, the performance, the 'punch' but again no backseat and for the money I am paying for the car, the interior is just not up to spec. My demands are pretty much like Nickoz, and the other OEMs are just not up to their game like Porsche in offering what people wants.

    I may have already bought 3 911s already, but just like him, if there is something else better than a Porsche, I have no problem buying that something else, witness my purchase of a ML63 instead of a Cayenne Turbo S. Down the line, I just don't see anything yet that can be a better allrounder than the TT, other than perhaps a Turbo S with PDK. The Skyline may give the TT a run but it looks too much like a boy racer, Lexus' offering? It jsut looks butt ugly. 430's replacement? Maybe by that time my demand of a backseat will not be an issue and it might be a viable option. But frankly, the only Ferrari I would consider worth buying is the 599, but it's still only on my radar, no missile lock yet.

     
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