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    Jul 30, 2007 6:37:48 PM

    ADias
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    997S vs 997TT on the twisties...


    Stradale started a thread to ask feedback from people who own(ed) 997S and own now 997TT. This thread is more specific. Is the Turbo superior over a NA 997S on short switch-backs on a mountain road? I'm talking about short straights 1/4 of mile on average, sharp corners and constant elevation changes.

    Do the turbos make a difference?
    Do they spool fast enough?
    What about car dynamics with constant spooling changes?

    I'm not talking about high altitude roads where the turbos would have an advantage. I'm talking about coastal ranges between 0 and 2000 feet - like the Santa Cruz Mountains in the SF Bay Area. Example roads - La Honda Rd., Alpine Rd., Pescadero Creek Rd., to name a few - note that I'm referring to the curved switch-back sections of these roads, not the long straights that you can find in some of those towards the Pacific where the Turbo would have an advantage (some of the time).

    I'm interested in true experienced replies. Please refrain to reply if you have not experienced both cars NA/turbo under those conditions. 996 cars are fine too.

    Jul 30, 2007 7:01:19 PM

    bluelines
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    I went from a 997 Carrera S manual with Sport Suspension (-20mm) and LSD to a 997 Turbo manual with LSD. My personal opinion is that that the Turbo feels safer at high speed through long curves and bends, but it also feels less involving.

    For example, the Carrera you could really balance with the throttle through a curve, but if you quickly let off the throttle the rear immediately felt nervous and you had to compensate with the steering... otherwise it would end in trouble

    The Turbo does not have this nervousness and you don't feel the rear weight distribution as much. I assume this is all due to the four wheel drive. Thus it feels safer.

    The turbos spool very quickly, especially in first gear, and the car really catapults forward. However, the tricky thing is to not get too much power. Once the boost is building it all comes very quickly and you have to be very light on the trottle to not get too much power and be prepared to throw next gear in. If you do this on a very twisty and curvy road you have to be careful not to suddently go too fast and miss the turn

    I think you will be faster in the Turbo, but you will have more fun in the Carrera...

    Having said that, I rather throw my Boxster S around sharp curves along a mountain pass than my Turbo. I guess that answers the question

    Jul 30, 2007 7:33:26 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Bluelines: interesting feedback.

    I'm curious. You say the S would easily be unsettled on a sharp turn. How fast were you making those turns? For instance a 120-degree turn with a slope change? How fast do you do that (and in what gear) to unsettle an S?

    I'm interested in open road fast safe driving, not rally reckless driving.

    Jul 30, 2007 7:39:04 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Once the boost is building it all comes very quickly and you have to be very light on the trottle to not get too much power and be prepared to throw next gear in. If you do this on a very twisty and curvy road you have to be careful not to suddently go too fast and miss the turn



    I may be misinformed but I bet this is where PDK will REALLY show it's stars: in the TT.

    Seems like all the Turbo's "point and shoot" capability would lend itself beautifully to the lightning fast and perfectly revmatched shifts of the PDK.

    WOW!


    Jul 30, 2007 7:43:46 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    I have to agree with Bluelines on every point made.

    I also found that creating the same scenario with the C2S in the twisties would get the back end nervous, sometimes very nervous. I know, at least one time, where I would have been in to the guardrail had it not been for the computer reeling the car back in line. I never had this issue with the turbo or my C4S. Ill equipped, very spirited driving (not rally type) could induce this type of behavior.

    It became more apparent to me, that, as much as I may think that I am a decently fast driver, a good driver's school certainly would help.

    The turbo was definately less invloving. I loved the planted feeling that the turbo gave me. So, in the handling dept., the turbo may have been a little more fun in a secure and can do no wrong way, but if I were more adept at driving a rear engine sports car, I might feel differently.

    Jul 30, 2007 7:43:56 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Once the boost is building it all comes very quickly and you have to be very light on the trottle to not get too much power and be prepared to throw next gear in. If you do this on a very twisty and curvy road you have to be careful not to suddently go too fast and miss the turn



    I may be misinformed but I bet this is where PDK will REALLY show it's stars: in the TT.

    Seems like all the Turbo's "point and shoot" capability would lend itself beautifully to the lightning fast and perfectly revmatched shifts of the PDK.

    WOW!



    Bluelines did not raise any issue with the transmission !?!

    BTW... the current tip already rev matches perfectly.

    Jul 30, 2007 7:46:16 PM

    chrisNY
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    I felt my '06 997S felt a bit more planted or "consistent" than the TT. Taking the same roads/exit ramps in both cars at the same speeds the rear of the TT will come out more easily than it did in the S. (and i'm NOT lifting off throttle in either case)

    Jul 30, 2007 8:10:24 PM

    bluelines
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Okay, real life example... on my way from work there is a long 90-degree bend going off one highway and onto the next highway... the limit is 100km/h and it is probably close to the limit for any "normal" car... most people drive slower through here. However, with the Carrera S, in 3rd gear, doing around 120km/h it felt like on rails. Perfectly balanced and planted on the road... until you let off the throttle too quickly half way through the turn, or changed the direction too quickly. Then it bit back right at you The same bend with the Turbo in 120km/h feels safer and I would not have an issue pushing even faster... it feels much more neutral. Quick changes on the throttle or direction does not seem to bother the Turbo as much as the Carrera. The same bend with the Boxster is another story... it is simply perfectly balanced and runs through the bend like nothing else.

    I drove through some steep twisty mountain roads a while back and as long as you can stay in 2nd or 3rd gear the Turbo is brutally fast and the power is manageble. I found it hard to push it through sharper turns in 1st gear simply due to the enourmous power and how it is delivered... the Turbo is just too much for this.

    Thus, my dream car... please Porsche please... is a Boxster with a GT3 engine and LSD. That would be the perfect combination for a fast, safe and very fun car

    Jul 30, 2007 8:21:51 PM

    bluelines
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Bluelines did not raise any issue with the transmission !?!




    There is nothing wrong with the transmission, nothing at all... but full throttle in the Turbo in 1st gear and you better be prepared for redline and 2nd gear... it is almost instantaneous... and not really comfortable either. Almost feels like someone hit you in the back when if accelerates through 1st gear. That the car does not loose traction is a miracle...

    PDK for the Turbo will be interesting. I think it will make the car easier to drive at the limit, i.e. you can focus on power and steering... and the next bend

    Jul 30, 2007 9:20:50 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    I banged the rev limiter many times, pinning the throttle in first gear! I felt like I was aboard the Starship Enterprise and Capt. Kirk just asked Scottie for more power "man!"; and I got it. Warp speed eight, yeah baby!

    Sorry, I lost control for a minute.

    Jul 30, 2007 9:26:06 PM

    bluelines
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    devo said:
    I banged the rev limiter many times, pinning the throttle in first gear! I felt like I was aboard the Starship Enterprise and Capt. Kirk just asked Scottie for more power "man!"; and I got it. Warp speed eight, yeah baby!

    Sorry, I lost control for a minute.



    LOL! I hear you man

    Jul 30, 2007 9:34:54 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    I banged the rev limiter many times, pinning the throttle in first gear! I felt like I was aboard the Starship Enterprise and Capt. Kirk just asked Scottie for more power "man!"; and I got it. Warp speed eight, yeah baby!

    Sorry, I lost control for a minute.



    LOL! I hear you man




    When you see the cone-shape of moving white lines radiating out from a central point THEN you might start worrying.

    Jul 30, 2007 10:06:21 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    I banged the rev limiter many times, pinning the throttle in first gear! I felt like I was aboard the Starship Enterprise and Capt. Kirk just asked Scottie for more power "man!"; and I got it. Warp speed eight, yeah baby!

    Sorry, I lost control for a minute.



    LOL! I hear you man




    When you see the cone-shape of moving white lines radiating out from a central point THEN you might start worrying.




    Exactly.

    Jul 30, 2007 10:10:40 PM

    devo
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    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Hey Bluelines,
    What color interior did you go for? I might jump in again and go for a tt cab. I was wondering how you felt about the Meteor Grey, now that you've had it a bit. I think it's a beautiful color, although, I am torn between that and Slate Grey. With either, I may go with a Cocoa interior and painted seatbacks. Opinions? (Sorry, I am a little OT)

    Jul 30, 2007 10:15:58 PM

    bluelines
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    I am really happy with Meteor. I don't regret it and I would not change for another color. I went for black interior with Guards Red stitching.

    Jul 30, 2007 10:33:38 PM

    Ksurg
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    ADias said:

    Stradale started a thread to ask feedback from people who own(ed) 997S and own now 997TT. This thread is more specific. Is the Turbo superior over a NA 997S on short switch-backs on a mountain road? I'm talking about short straights 1/4 of mile on average, sharp corners and constant elevation changes.

    Do the turbos make a difference?
    Do they spool fast enough?
    What about car dynamics with constant spooling changes?

    I'm not talking about high altitude roads where the turbos would have an advantage. I'm talking about coastal ranges between 0 and 2000 feet - like the Santa Cruz Mountains in the SF Bay Area. Example roads - La Honda Rd., Alpine Rd., Pescadero Creek Rd., to name a few - note that I'm referring to the curved switch-back sections of these roads, not the long straights that you can find in some of those towards the Pacific where the Turbo would have an advantage (some of the time).

    I'm interested in true experienced replies. Please refrain to reply if you have not experienced both cars NA/turbo under those conditions. 996 cars are fine too.


    I haven't owned a 997S or turbo yet but having had both a 996 and 997 C4S I think that part of the equation here has to do with comparing rear wheel to all wheel drive. I haven't found any of the nervousness in the rear end of the C4S described above. With the C4 or C4S you get a bit more understeer but it's easily compensated. Also it sounds like the turbo needs to be driven with a judicious right foot and an eye on the turbo boost. Both the C2S and C4S are pretty linear and in my experience predictable giving the confidence to push hard. I hate surprises! If all I was planning to do was drive the twisties then I'd stick with the C4( or a Ruf conversion of the Cayman S). Real life, however, will have me spending more time in turbo territory.

    Jul 30, 2007 11:05:14 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Very nice interior.

    Jul 30, 2007 11:33:39 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Ksurg

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    Ksurg said:
    I haven't owned a 997S or turbo yet but having had both a 996 and 997 C4S I think that part of the equation here has to do with comparing rear wheel to all wheel drive. I haven't found any of the nervousness in the rear end of the C4S described above. With the C4 or C4S you get a bit more understeer but it's easily compensated. Also it sounds like the turbo needs to be driven with a judicious right foot and an eye on the turbo boost. Both the C2S and C4S are pretty linear and in my experience predictable giving the confidence to push hard. I hate surprises! If all I was planning to do was drive the twisties then I'd stick with the C4( or a Ruf conversion of the Cayman S). Real life, however, will have me spending more time in turbo territory.



    Ksurg: I drive a C4 and know the diff to a C2/C2S. I'm really more interested in the behavior of an engine turbo surge on mountain driving. (i) is it a positive or (ii) it is irrelevant as a NA is linear and is torquey enough?
    Flatland, straight line acceleration is of no interest to me.

    Jul 31, 2007 12:02:48 AM

    Ksurg
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Ksurg said:
    I haven't owned a 997S or turbo yet but having had both a 996 and 997 C4S I think that part of the equation here has to do with comparing rear wheel to all wheel drive. I haven't found any of the nervousness in the rear end of the C4S described above. With the C4 or C4S you get a bit more understeer but it's easily compensated. Also it sounds like the turbo needs to be driven with a judicious right foot and an eye on the turbo boost. Both the C2S and C4S are pretty linear and in my experience predictable giving the confidence to push hard. I hate surprises! If all I was planning to do was drive the twisties then I'd stick with the C4( or a Ruf conversion of the Cayman S). Real life, however, will have me spending more time in turbo territory.



    Ksurg: I drive a C4 and know the diff to a C2/C2S. I'm really more interested in the behavior of an engine turbo surge on mountain driving. (i) is it a positive or (ii) it is irrelevant as a NA is linear and is torquey enough?
    Flatland, straight line acceleration is of no interest to me.


    ADias,
    Understood. Just seemed like everyone was focusing on the C2S rear end "nervousness" and not on turbo spool or power issues. In STRADALE's original thread there were comments like "anemic" in regards to the throttle on the C4S Cab. But again I suspect they were referring to straight line or freeway performance...not the twisties.

    Jul 31, 2007 5:59:21 AM

    WBH
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Drive Woodside/LaHondaRd twisties prob twice every wkend that I'm in SF...great roads that I know well.

    Had 997S Tip/steel brakes (back at launch in ?Fall04). 997TT Tip/PCCB (Fall06). Drove 997S perhaps 6K mis; 997TT some 3K mis....many mis enjoyed in those Woodside twisties (and on 280).

    From recall, turbo lag is a major, annoying issue in Woodside twisties (and a primary reason why I traded-in 997TT early, even before using it as my winter, rainy-season AWD SUV commuter car ); 997S' lack of tq is annoying in twisties (esp for those accustomed to 63/65/599 motors); have never bothered w/Tip buttons (ergonomics are worthless for me vs F paddleshifters); and would observe that PASM in either 997S/997TT is not well-sorted vs bumpy stretches, sudden road elevation/camber changes, etc....found traction of both 997S/997TT to be excellent in damp spots/leaves in twisties.

    Suspect pace of advances in chassis hardware/software in past 1-2 yrs is remarkably fast; need to expce the new tech for self on own favorite, familiar challenging roads (esp bumpy, sometimes wet, mtn twisties) to really appreciate the advances....

    Those who currently drive 599 marvel re: advances in chassis tech, stab ctrls, gearbox, etc (and the myriad of computerized interlinks) expcd in mtn twisties driving vs their prior 430s....and F is struggling to build 599s w/Luddite 6-speeds that effectively interlink w/the various chassis computers.....raising the question of whether a paddleshifter tranny w/human input will be as fast/smooth/stable as a fully computerized/networked gearbox within next 1-2 yrs as various drivetrain/chassis/stab ctrls computers become faster/smarter/more interlinked....

    Perhaps P will quietly advance PASM software in '08 models (sort of what F continually does w/F1 trannies)....quietly, to avoid angering prior buyers.....but not sure P R&D is quite as productive/leading-edge as F R&D in chassis/gearbox/NA engine tech....P clearly wins in passive safety tech (rather important, given how many errant, oncoming cars one faces in Woodside twisties), but is lagging in many other areas of dynamics tech advances

    Jul 31, 2007 7:33:46 AM

    Porsche-Jeck
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    Thus, my dream car... please Porsche please... is a Boxster with a GT3 engine and LSD. That would be the perfect combination for a fast, safe and very fun car



    It seems that we share the same dream Of course Porsche won't listen
    Thanks for your very interesting real life comparo of C2S/TT/987S in the twisties Once you've tested a GT3 in the Swiss mountains the comparo will be complete

    Jul 31, 2007 1:39:36 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Check out that majorly tuned Boxster with lots of HP in Excellence a while ago (Ruf?). The article wasn't totally hot on it.

    Jul 31, 2007 1:51:35 PM

    atomic80
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Well, I haven't owned a C2S but I have driven one on a number of occasions at the Porsche Driving School on a race track. I also went on an extended road trip driving down to Santa Barbara, CA from Seattle, WA with my Turbo last spring. From those two experiences, I can definitely say that the Turbo felt like it was almost too easy to drive hard in the twisties. For me, I felt it was a bit more of a challenge driving the C2S because of the increased steering/road feel in the C2S on the track. I'd have to say that there was more "drama" involved. In the Turbo, with the AWD, slightly lessened steering feel, I felt invincible driving in the twisties. That can easily lull those inexperienced in such matters into getting themselves into trouble quite easily. According to Larry who at the time was following me closely with his then M3 mentioned that the Turbo seemed to "hop" its way around the corners whereas I had absolutely no indication at all that it was doing that from within. The Turbo is a monster in the twisties especially when in the right gear with its immense torque. I felt as if all I had to do was hang tight while pointing the way through the twisties while hammering the brakes and applying gas coming out of those corners. I can say that it was a HOOT doing that! I was really flying through those corners! Oh btw, this was going through the Northernmost section of Hwy 1 through the forest and some other sections of the most insane twisties imaginable. I can't remember ever having this much fun with any other car I've driven. One thing however is that I overheated my ceramic brakes that day! The PCCBs or even the OEM steel brakes are definitely NOT designed for constant use of hard braking in a situation like that. I overheated the brake fluids and I'm thinking of flushing the system out with something with a much higher boiling temperature than the stock fluids. I do think that the PCCB rotors held out better than the steel rotors would have.

    Bottom line for me is the C2S would be much more dramatic in those twisties while the Turbo would be almost drama-free in situations like that. (except for the braking situation that is).

    Jul 31, 2007 3:32:34 PM

    pride355 Offline
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    I went from a 997 Carrera S manual with Sport Suspension (-20mm) and LSD to a 997 Turbo manual with LSD. My personal opinion is that that the Turbo feels safer at high speed through long curves and bends, but it also feels less involving.

    For example, the Carrera you could really balance with the throttle through a curve, but if you quickly let off the throttle the rear immediately felt nervous and you had to compensate with the steering... otherwise it would end in trouble




    I agree with you about your Carrera S comment. I do have a 07 Carrera S with LSD; the car feels as it drives on the rails on fast bands, say 120-160 km/h, because of the very stiff chassie; BUT if you let go throttle suddenly a little, the rear end gets too nervous and starts to oversteer. You need to make,BOTH, steering correction + throttle input to correct the tail.

    However, at lower speeds; lets say 30-100 km/h, you can use this behaviour of the car on your benefit. If the car starts to understeer on a corner, just let off the throttle. It suddenly startes to oversteer and you can easily hold the car at sliding angle.

    I haven't driven 997TT, but when I attended Porsche Club track day at istanbul Park; official F1 Race Circuit in Turkey; I imagined that a Turbo and a Carrera 4S would be way faster than a Carrera S on turn 8 (where you have a combined 4 turns) and on the 30' right turn just before the final straight because of the 4WD (and because of the power of course).

    By the way, I loved your 997TT configuration; manuel with LSD; but this shows that we are coming from the same place; manuel Carrera S with LSD

    Enjoy it in good health.

    Jul 31, 2007 3:42:59 PM

    pride355 Offline
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    Reply to: bluelines

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    bluelines said:
    I am really happy with Meteor. I don't regret it and I would not change for another color. I went for black interior with Guards Red stitching.



    Actually, I saw the color of your car after my first post. Your TT is also the same color as mine, meteor grey

    I was thinking of getting black inteior with red stiching, but then decided on sand beige, at the final minute.

    Aug 3, 2007 11:39:55 PM

    Nickoz
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    Reply to: atomic80

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    According to Larry who at the time was following me closely with his then M3 mentioned that the Turbo seemed to "hop" its way around the corners whereas I had absolutely no indication at all that it was doing that from within.



    Is it possible that this is associated with the LSD or lack thereof? Do cars with LSD experience less of the handling issues some people report?

    Aug 4, 2007 3:24:27 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Nickoz

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Quote:
    Nickoz said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    According to Larry who at the time was following me closely with his then M3 mentioned that the Turbo seemed to "hop" its way around the corners whereas I had absolutely no indication at all that it was doing that from within.



    Is it possible that this is associated with the LSD or lack thereof? Do cars with LSD experience less of the handling issues some people report?



    I do not think it is "hop." I think it is a rotational slide of the rears. The rears are very wide and when the car turns quickly, even more so when it goes through a quick-S, they rotate visibly with some slight slippage, while tracking perfectly. It is fun to feel that, especially when the soft compound is properly warmed. These cars do that beautifully!

    Aug 4, 2007 3:01:48 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: 997S vs 997TT on the twisties...

    Haven't owned a 997 TT,,,yet...But since you included 996 cars I can reply, having owned a 996 Turbo & a 997 S Cab. I think the 'more planted' comments you're getting regarding the Turbo is not just based on the front wheels pulling which in the case of the 997 TT can be 100%, the 996 Turbo couldnt do that but the better weight distribution. The 997 Turbo has better/more even weight distribution than the 997 S obviously because of the front wheel drive components & drivetrain.

    More specific to your first set of questions, my answer would be a definite yes. But to what degree the Turbo has advantages is really dependant on the driving situation. IMO the more open the driving the better the N/A is. The greater % that you can keep the engine in the higher rpm range the better the N/A 997 S engine is. In other words if you're out on the road alone and you can keep the engine in the higher rpms, not having to brake,stop for traffic and having to start again in the very low rpms the better the N/A becomes. IMO that's where the Turbo has such an advantage, the more you're in both the lower and higher rpms where you can more easily use the increased HP/Torque the more evident the advantages of having the Twin Turbo's. That low-end grunt was something I always missed going from a Turbo to a 997 S. And although there's still Turbo Lag it's definitely improved vs the 996. For me I can already tell just from the drives I've taken in the Turbo it's a lot more fun to drive imo. A LOT more.
     
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