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    Jul 25, 2007 9:57:47 AM

    Alex_997TT
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    Alex_997TT
    Loc: Reading , United Kingdom
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    Heal and Toe

    Hi guys,

    Since my Porsche Experience days this year I have been trying to master heal and toe down shifts in my 997.

    I am slowly getting better but I am still not nailing it. I know the principals:

    Quote:

    1. Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.


    2. Push in the clutch with your left foot.


    3. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.


    4. Move the shifter down a gear.


    5. Release the clutch with your left foot.




    But can anyone give me some useful tips, especially on how to ideally position your right foot on a 997 for blipping the throttle at the same time as braking?

    Jul 25, 2007 10:16:50 AM

    Anis
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Heal and Toe

    I have been using heel and toe on and off for 3-4 years now. I did a couple of John Lyon's courses and he insisted on teaching it. The braking side of it makes a lot of sense to me and I tend to sometimes do it naturally. I tend to brake with the front of my foot/toes and position the back of my foot to blip the throttle. It's pretty easy on the 997 as they have positioned the pedals perfectly for it. I only ever really do it when I'm pushing on or driving hard and don't really do it in day to day driving, although I always have a blat before breaking for the left turn into my road so always practice then.

    John Lyon also insisted on heeling and toeing on changing up gears as well but I never really got the hang of it.

    Jul 25, 2007 11:28:02 AM

    Ferdie
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    Reply to: Anis

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Quote:
    Anis said:
    It's pretty easy on the 997 as they have positioned the pedals perfectly for it. I only ever really do it when I'm pushing on or driving hard [...]



    I find it rather hard to accomplish on the 997, there are a number of cars that are much easier to perform heal-and-toe in.
    I use to blip at downshifts quite often currently, to master the amount of throttle you need to perfectly match the revs to the selected gear.

    Jul 25, 2007 11:51:06 AM

    Leawood911
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    Reply to: Ferdie

    Re: Heal and Toe

    It would help if the pedals were on the correct side of the car!

    Jul 25, 2007 12:15:22 PM

    Over the Hill
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    Loc: Bellevue, Washington, USA
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Heal and Toe

    When all else fails you might try modifying your pedals. Look in the Porsche specific magazines for ads for these pedals. Some of these may help you "reach" both gas and brake easier.

    Jul 25, 2007 12:35:07 PM

    tubescreamerules
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    tubescreamerules
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    Reply to: Over the Hill

    Re: Heal and Toe

    instead of modifying the pedals, i suggest practice h&t with a less well setup car, i learned it with my first car, a 1.4 litre golf, it was extremly diffcult to h&t as the gas pedal is way too high, but once i master it on that little golf, i can pretty much h&t with almost every car i drive.

    the pedals postion on p-cars are very h&t friendly imo its really down to how ur right foot get used to the action, and never practice it on a public road!

    Jul 25, 2007 12:41:56 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: tubescreamerules

    Re: Heal and Toe

    - you need good driving shoes.
    - it is actually easier when you drive fast as you break harder (which makes the gas pedal easily reachable), and you are higher in the revs...
    I have no problem doing it now. First was doing on a Boxster...then 997 and now 996. A bit different everytime and even between same car models as breaks and gas react differently.
    I blip the throttle all the time on downshifts regardless of the speed, car make and shoes :-) Just makes a smoother driving...

    Jul 25, 2007 1:30:25 PM

    colonel
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    colonel
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: Heal and Toe

    yes, it's definitely a lot easier to do heel and toe on the track, with heavier braking and higher rpm. I used my heel to blip the throttle because my feet is not as wide, so I can't roll my feet to the right.

    Jul 25, 2007 3:02:51 PM

    AUM
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    Reply to: colonel

    Re: Heal and Toe

    I find it easier to use my heel on the track (when braking heavily) and the side of my foot on the street (when braking moderately).

    Jul 25, 2007 3:53:56 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Alex_997TT

    Re: Heal and Toe

    If you foot is not wide enough to roll toward the throttle then use the bottom half of your foot for braking and the upper part for the throttle. The critical part of heel and toe is the throttle which requires feel when you blip. Your toes are much more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous.

    Jul 25, 2007 4:51:58 PM

    AE
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Blipping the throttle on every downshift allows for a very smooth downshift with no strain on the drivetrain when the clutch is released. If you can feel and hear a clunk when the clutch is released after downshifting, the engine speed and wheel speed are not matched.
    As posted by others, using an appropriate shoe helps alot with ideal foot position, being able to roll the foot properly, etc.
    The instructors at PDE in Birmingham, Alabama taught that braking rather than downshifting when slowing down put less strain on the drivetrain and is less expensive on long term and routine maintenance. Downshifting is required to increase engine revs for cornering, passing etc.
    It sure is fun to consistently get smooth downshifts.

    Jul 25, 2007 4:56:43 PM

    modenaboy
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Heal and Toe

    1. Get Piloti Prototipo shoes - amazing for the price, make a huge difference. Especially with the Porsche where the pedals are spaced far apart.

    2. If you have trouble reaching the accel, try twisting your foot pointing to the left, so you hit the brakes with the top (toes) and use the middle/back on the gas. I have to do this in my Porsche and Elise, but don't have to do it in a Ferrari or BMW (it depends on the spacing).

    Be careful if you twist your foot like this, it is easy to nail both the brakes and gas at the same time, so you might need to roll your knee towards the left to stay off the gas until you want to blip.

    3. It is definitely easier on the track when you are braking harder.

    The Pilotis made a huge difference for me, and they aren't all that bad for walking around (wore them for two days at the track without any other shoes)

    Jul 25, 2007 5:22:32 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: modenaboy

    Re: Heal and Toe

    The trouble with wider shoes is that, whilst they make H&T easier with the right foot, unfortunately the left foot is also wider. This can cause you to catch the foot-rest when depressing the clutch.

    Jul 25, 2007 5:31:52 PM

    John H Offline
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: Heal and Toe

    BTW - anyone know if Piloti shoes are available in the UK - at least they have a special right foot width, but I haven't been able to trace a UK stockist.

    Jul 25, 2007 7:14:29 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: John H

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Quote:
    John H said:
    The trouble with wider shoes is that, whilst they make H&T easier with the right foot, unfortunately the left foot is also wider. This can cause you to catch the foot-rest when depressing the clutch.



    Is their a rule the shoes should match?

    AE, I believe your agreeing with me. TO match revv's successfully, you need feel on the throttle.

    Jul 25, 2007 7:34:27 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: nberry

    Another (experienced) perspective...

    I have been driving all kinds of manual trannys for many, many years. Heel and toe is not necessary on modern cars driven on the road. I learned to drive in Europe when double clutching was still needed for some cars (am I dating myself? ). Trail braking is an art and it is a smooth process, not the on-off affair I see people doing on the road. I sometimes quickly blip the throttle when doing a deeper down shift, but see no need to brake and blip at the same time. I think heel and toe is one of those old age fetiches that does not go away. Very macho ego stroking, that is all.

    Jul 25, 2007 9:55:29 PM

    Heist
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    I do it one of two ways:

    - Cheap Heel & Toe Method:
    When coming to braking point, I simply - but rapidly - clutch in - blip throttle - cover brake with right foot - clutch out - fully apply brake

    - True Heel and Toe Method
    When coming to a braking point, I position my foot almost between the Gas and Brake. I begin light braking with left side of forefoot - clutch in - roll right side of forefoot on gas to blip while keeping trying to keep constant pressure on brake - clutch out - apply full braking force.

    Jul 25, 2007 10:56:15 PM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Heist

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    Heist said:- True Heel and Toe Method
    When coming to a braking point, I position my foot almost between the Gas and Brake. I begin light braking with left side of forefoot - clutch in - roll right side of forefoot on gas to blip while keeping trying to keep constant pressure on brake - clutch out - apply full braking force.



    You do this to brake? This is no longer advised. To brake, just brake and clutch at the end, per Walter Röhrl.

    Jul 25, 2007 11:31:57 PM

    Heist
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Heist said:- True Heel and Toe Method
    When coming to a braking point, I position my foot almost between the Gas and Brake. I begin light braking with left side of forefoot - clutch in - roll right side of forefoot on gas to blip while keeping trying to keep constant pressure on brake - clutch out - apply full braking force.



    You do this to brake? This is no longer advised. To brake, just brake and clutch at the end, per Walter Röhrl.



    Remember, I'm trying to upset the balance of the car if I'm deep braking. Hence I settle the suspension and SQUAT the car with some light braking force - rev match with heel and toe - then apply full braking force.

    To not do this, I'd be full gas - clutch in which UNLOADS the suspension and send the weight forward - rev match and tthen brake - which sends the weight forward some more. Too many body motions for me.

    Again, the light braking pressure is to load, settle, and set the car.

    Jul 26, 2007 1:30:31 AM

    seattle_sun
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I have been driving all kinds of manual trannys for many, many years. Heel and toe is not necessary on modern cars driven on the road. I learned to drive in Europe when double clutching was still needed for some cars (am I dating myself? ). Trail braking is an art and it is a smooth process, not the on-off affair I see people doing on the road. I sometimes quickly blip the throttle when doing a deeper down shift, but see no need to brake and blip at the same time. I think heel and toe is one of those old age fetiches that does not go away. Very macho ego stroking, that is all.



    Maybe not on the road, but on the track its a necessity. Otherwise, you can really upset the car.

    Jul 26, 2007 3:32:08 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I have been driving all kinds of manual trannys for many, many years. Heel and toe is not necessary on modern cars driven on the road. I learned to drive in Europe when double clutching was still needed for some cars (am I dating myself? ). Trail braking is an art and it is a smooth process, not the on-off affair I see people doing on the road. I sometimes quickly blip the throttle when doing a deeper down shift, but see no need to brake and blip at the same time. I think heel and toe is one of those old age fetiches that does not go away. Very macho ego stroking, that is all.


    I think you many need to drive manual transmissions for a few more years

    With all due respect, this post is full of misinformation. Double clutching and heel-toe downshifting are not the same thing (though they can be combined). Any serious driver will heel-toe downshift when approaching a slow corner (with or without double clutching) in a manually shifted car if he/she is driving with any pace at all...

    I am sure you misunderstood Walter R's description. He may have said double-clutching is unnecessary with today's cars, but I'm fairly certain he would never say heel-toe is not needed with a manual gearbox.

    Not heel-toe downshifting into a slower corner will cause slower progress, much more strain on the car (clutch, gearbox, engine and tranny mounts, drive axles, etc.) and increases the risk of spinning.

    Jul 26, 2007 4:46:34 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    I know the diff between H&T and double clutching, thank you.

    My reference to WR's statement was not related to H&T. He stated that hard breaking should be done strictly with brakes and NOT using a downshift.

    Jul 26, 2007 4:47:14 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Anis

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Quote:
    Anis said:John Lyon also insisted on heeling and toeing on changing up gears as well but I never really got the hang of it.


    I think you misunderstood this. I can imagine rev matching on upshifts (blipping throttle to synchronize engine speed to road speed and newly selected gear), but heel-toe is totally inappropriate for upshifting.

    Heel-toe refers to operating brake and throttle simultaneously with the right foot. There is no need/desire to use the brake pedal when accelerating and upshifting. Heel toe is used when downshifting and braking together, usually in preparation for a turn that will require a lower gear on exit of the turn than is required on approach to the turn.

    Jul 26, 2007 4:49:53 AM

    Grant
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I know the diff between H&T and double clutching, thank you.

    My reference to WR's statement was not related to H&T. He stated that hard breaking should be done strictly with brakes and NOT using a downshift.


    I agree with that. What about your remark that heel-toe is totally unnecessary on the road with a modern car? That is not true if you live anywhere with sharp corners, and are driving at any speed other than very slowly...

    Jul 26, 2007 5:46:06 AM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    I have been driving all kinds of manual trannys for many, many years. Heel and toe is not necessary on modern cars driven on the road. I learned to drive in Europe when double clutching was still needed for some cars (am I dating myself? ). Trail braking is an art and it is a smooth process, not the on-off affair I see people doing on the road. I sometimes quickly blip the throttle when doing a deeper down shift, but see no need to brake and blip at the same time. I think heel and toe is one of those old age fetiches that does not go away. Very macho ego stroking, that is all.



    This is not true!!! Nothing to do with double-declutching which was linked to (lack of) syncros in the gearboxes.
    H&T allows to exit corner with the right gear when entered on heavy breaking and downshifting without upsetting the transmission.

    Jul 26, 2007 6:02:21 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Jeannot

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:This is not true!!! Nothing to do with double-declutching which was linked to (lack of) syncros in the gearboxes.
    H&T allows to exit corner with the right gear when entered on heavy breaking and downshifting without upsetting the transmission.



    Read my posts in context, please.

    Jul 26, 2007 7:59:34 AM

    jerrygee
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If you foot is not wide enough to roll toward the throttle then use the bottom half of your foot for braking and the upper part for the throttle. The critical part of heel and toe is the throttle which requires feel when you blip. Your toes are much more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous.



    I agree that the toes are more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous and would likely lead to a nice heel and toe downshift but the most critical part of setting up for a turn taken at speed is the braking. I would rather be off a bit with my throttle during the downshift and smooth things with the clutch but be spot on with my braking. All things being equal there is no other single driver input the will affect lap speeds more than your braking technique.

    It would be next to impossible to threshold brake using your heel as it does not have the sensitivity of your upper foot to receive the feedback from the tires being transmitted through the brake pedal nor is there the dexterity to properly modulate the brake pedal to maintain the proper brake pressure. You can quickly articulate the upper part of your foot at the ankle but the heel would need to be articulated at the knee and hip which would be too slow and insensitive to maintain the proper brake pressure.

    But then again you could just mash hard on the brakes with your heel and let the ABS sort things out.

    Jul 26, 2007 2:43:19 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Another (experienced) perspective...

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:This is not true!!! Nothing to do with double-declutching which was linked to (lack of) syncros in the gearboxes.
    H&T allows to exit corner with the right gear when entered on heavy breaking and downshifting without upsetting the transmission.



    Read my posts in context, please.



    Sorry, but what is the context (that would change my reply)???
    Heel&Toe is not from the past. Nothing has changed on cars that prevents it from being an enhanced driving experience....

    Jul 26, 2007 4:26:34 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: jerrygee

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Quote:
    jerrygee said:I agree that the toes are more sensitive and the upper part of your foot more dexterous and would likely lead to a nice heel and toe downshift but the most critical part of setting up for a turn taken at speed is the braking. I would rather be off a bit with my throttle during the downshift and smooth things with the clutch but be spot on with my braking.


    My thoughts exactly. My throttle pedal extension provides an easy way to do this, since it extends right under the brake pedal so I can brake with toes and blip throttle with heel - works much better than other way around...

    Jul 26, 2007 7:57:46 PM

    john999s
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Heal and Toe

    Sport chrono makes the throttle more sensitive and thus I reckon its easier to heel and toe in a 997 with this option. But it's certainly easier to H&T in a 996 (closer pedals.)

    I learnt years ago when a certain Mr P Gethin told me I needed to learn it to go faster and then the advice was repeated at a Hethel sponsors day by Mr J Miles. 'Fast' was redefined for me that day by Mr Herbert who was driving for Lotus at that time and blasted me round the track in a factory development Esprit Turbo) so I set about learning.

    I tried Nick's alternative method but never managed to master it so I think toe on the brake and roll the foot so that the lower right part of you foot is angled on the accelerator works best in a 997.

    It took me ages to master the blip without adjusting pressure but if you do it often enough it comes (check your mirror before you start learning !!!:) )
     
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