Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    PCCB or NO PCCB??

    ok, you guys have been terrific. I ordered a very heavily optioned TTCab for October build. I opted NOT to get the ceramic brakes becuase I do not drive hard and will NEVER take the car to the track. Am I wrong?? Will I be sorry? Why?

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    nope, you wont need it

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    No need. They're nice if you have the money. Believe it or not some of us guys always seem to have an extra 8000 dollars to simply blow on something cool but self-indulgent. PCCBs for me? Nah, I decided to stop blowing money on the car.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    Goodness no, you don't need them. Smart move for a street car. Get a little more leather.

    You won't be sorry.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    They're really nice. They have the best feel to them, and I don't have to spent an extra minute even to clean the wheels,--ever!

    Dan

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    PCCB is a must!

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    Oh, I forgot..., what the braking distance differences between yellow and red?

    I might revise my opinion (worth two cents) because significant _safety_ improvement would make PCCB significantly more desireable.

    Safety _and_ ease of cleaning are about equal factors in getting PCCBs (kidding).

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    you can always repaint your brake caliber into yellow, and if you don't track or drive your car hard enough, you will never feel the difference (you will smile when you pay for brake pad replacement)...

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    These are the *supposed* benefits: Light weight, GREAT initial bite that allows one to brake later into corners, less brake fade, min. brake dust (very important! ), looks pretty (very very important ), lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use.

    These are the disadvantages: Terrible cost/benefit ratio, not good for the abuse of track, each rotor costs 5000 to replace, despite of better initial bite, there is no improvement in stopping distance, probably because tire adherence is the limiting factor.

    This one was a tough decision for me as well. To this day I am STILL 50/50.

    I read all the posts I could find, pm'ed all the people who have both brakes on 2 Porsche cars at the same time on a long term basis (no one-day tester), one answer stood out in my mind: "IT'S A WONDERFUL LUXURY THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNNECCESSARY. I **WILL** have it in all my future cars." LOL.

    BTW, when I asked multiple-car owners who have both PCCB and iron, the answer is universally in favor of PCCB in my huge sample of 4 people.

    Re. some of the pro's and con's:
    There is a significant 35 lbs. unsprung weight saving. The performance gain (not acceleration, but suspension related) could be felt easily even in street drivig, if you are to believe one of the people I asked who tests brake for a living
    The problem with PCCB is the terrible cost/benefit ratio. That is, there is a benefit, whether the cost is justified depends on how much $ you have AND what you think 9k should bring in braking.
    The paradox: By most "experts," the system is not recommended for track. It lasts longer for normal wear and tear, but it probably won't stand the abuse of tracking.
    Braking distances: Same because tire adherence is limit here. That's the explanation I've read, not fact. There IS a difference with "initial bite," in favor of PCCB.


    Does anyone have objective data showing probably the most popular and "best" upgrade alternative, Brembo GT, showing better stopping distance than stock or PCCB please?

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    You state a disadvantage of "Terrible cost/benefit ratio..." yet you don't cite the longevity of the PCCBs compared to iron brakes. How have you calculated the Cost Benefit ? It's mere conjecture on your part.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    Anybody know how much better the stopping distances are for PCCB?

    IOW, are yellow significantly _safer_ than red?

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    >>>>you don't cite the longevity of the PCCBs compared to iron

    I did:

    >>>>lasts longer for normal use, perhaps 100k between rotor change, perfectly reliable for street use

    But your point is well taken, perhaps I should change it to "high." BTW, as of now my September built Turbo has the $9000 box checked. I actually am about 51% in favor of PCCB.

    **Assuming** one wants to upgrade from Big Red (iself an excellent brake), the problem re. cost/benefit ratio of PCCB is also the alternative, Brembo GT. If Porsche offered Brembo as the upgrade path, I believe the cost would/should be considerably less than 9k, for arguably the same or better braking performance than PCCB, and for a system that is more "track safe." Any brake expert here would like to comment on this?

    Quote:
    Dan L said:
    You state a disadvantage of "Terrible cost/benefit ratio..." yet you don't cite the longevity of the PCCBs compared to iron brakes. How have you calculated the Cost Benefit ? It's mere conjecture on your part.


    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    This topic has been beaten to death and Cannga's post is the best I have read to date. Go for it if: (1)You will only use the car for steet use or limited track use(2) You can afford the extra cost. (3) You like the color yellow (4) You hate to clean brake dust (5) The extra weight savings is a big factor for you and (6) Your the type of guy that wants the latest and greatest and won't settle for less. Don't load up the car with a ton of options that are not performance oriented and then add the PCCB to save weight because that would be redundant? On a GT3 I would definately get them because weight reduction on that car is more critical. I say this because even on the gen 2 PCCB brakes hardcore track guys have taken their cars in to my Porsche dealership with issues relating to heat, excessive wear, and rotors that aren't holding up to excessive abuse (premature wear and fractures). The warranty does not cover this if you track your car. Thats why I don't recomend them for hardcore track use at least at this point in time.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    Quote:
    Bluehinder said:
    Goodness no, you don't need them. Smart move for a street car. Get a little more leather.

    You won't be sorry.



    With all the extra leather I got I could of easily traded it for the PCCB's and if i had to do it again I wouldn't change a thing. To each his own, thats the beauty of owning a Porsche. I love leather and appreciate the quality and handmade feel it gives this expensive car. Unfortunately I had to keep the price of the car at a certain level or I would have gone for more leather options!LOL!

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    PCCB's are the great cure for a problem that doesn't exist. There is nothing wrong with steel brakes, esp at the track they have the upper hand re reliability and cost to replace. If you track your car and have never had to replace your rotors(c4s/tt) you're probably not tracking it hard enough!
    That being said, if they weren't a 9k option I probably would have considered them more.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    PCCBs simply look a lot better with most exterior colors. For most people apperance as well a performance is important.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    PCCB's are no doubt an expensive option but I love mine. I elected to check that box instead of all the leather goodies. I had steel brakes on another Porsche model and must say they are great brakes, however that don't feel as "confident" as the PCCB's. I prefer the way they look, the way the fill up the space behind the wheel, the way they feel, and the fact that they operate much cleaner than steel brakes. The car stays much cleaner with the PCCB's. The steel brakes make a dusty mess on one good drive. Do you need PCCB's.....absolutely not, but they are great to have.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    gradyex,

    Thanks and .
    What a controversial topic!

    Quote:
    gradyex said:
    This topic has been beaten to death and Cannga's post is the best I have read to date. ...snip...


    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    Quote:
    Uber-porker said:
    PCCBs simply look a lot better with most exterior colors. For most people apperance as well a performance is important.



    With all due respect to everybody (no kidding) BUT:

    How could an ugly, lumpy, chunky casting (caliper) when painted a distractingly bright red or bright yellow EVER LOOK GOOD?

    Are you guys nuts?

    They're hideous!

    Don't you see Porsche painted them to create "my-brakes-are better-than-yours" BS and one-upsmanship competiton between Porsche owners? This tactic certainly works in _Porsche's_ favor!

    Stoooopidest thing I EVER saw to paint the calipers in annoyingly loud colors! Second stuuupidest would be fake quads on the 997S.

    Does anybody care about letting really nice wheels have the stage to themselves and not have to share it with a freeking brightly-colored _tumor_?

    Sorry..., rant over... .

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    Will never, ever buy another Porsche w/ out PCCB's. The steel brakes suck the big one...The ONLY thing I really hate about my 997 is the steel brakes & the complete mess they create and rob me of my time. When it takes longer to clean the wheels/calipers then it does to clean the entire rest of the car something is wrong. I'm about the 'throw in the towel' and give up trying to keep the wheels & brake calipers clean entirely. After 6 months, a year or this bs it was just kinda annoying but now after 2 yrs I can honestly say I've recently avoided washing my car because I didn't want to deal w/ the mess of the brakes. For a guy that usually enjoys detailing his cars, not good. There's also the looks of course. The PCCB's/rotors look much more high-tech especially the larger rotors & the rotors dont stay looking rusty & cruddy like steel. Guess my point to end my rant is - Even if the PCCB's didn't offer all the performance gains, less weight, less fade and weren't less money to maintain then steel (w/ the steel system needing rotor changes w/ every/every other pad change) I'd buy them just on their ease of cleaning benefits alone! If I had plans to keep my 997 I'd probably be kicking myself right now for comprimising & ordering steel when I probably ordered $7 or $8k in do dad leather & other options. The Carbon Ceramic's on my F430 were worth every bit of the $18k they cost, Porsche's PCCB's are a bargain.

    So guess I'd say yes, order them unless it really hurts financially to do so.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    Porsche Christophorus Magazine April/May 2001

    "In the test program, the ceramic disks and Brembo calipers have withstood
    twenty such hard braking cycles from 250 km/h (155 mph) to 100 km/h (62 mph)
    without any decrease in braking effectiveness. And with somewhat more
    sensible use, the silicon-carbide discs should last 300,000 kilometers
    (185,000 miles)."

    Porsche Cars North America, Inc. 2000 911 Turbo Literature:

    "Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes: Strong enough to stop time. (Or, at
    least, wear and tear)

    Once again, Porsche has stopped conventional thinking in its tracks by being
    the first to offer a revolutionary new ceramic brake disc as an option on
    the new 911 Turbo. Called Porsche Ceramic Composite Brakes (PCCB), this new
    technology shatters benchmarks in every respect.

    While it's dimensions are similar, a ceramic brake disc weighs 50 percent
    less than its cast-iron counterpart, reducing unsprung weight by 44lts for
    improved handling. Armed with new composite metal linings, ceramic brakes
    maintain their frictional coefficient regardless of temperature for the
    ultimate in fade-free stopping power. Cross-drilled discs and water
    resistant brake linings ensure equally superior performance in wet weather.

    PCCB technology achieves immediate emergency braking without having to stomp
    on the brake pedal. It's service life is every bit as effortless: the
    ceramic's hard surface and corrosion-free properties allow a brake disc to
    last as long as the car itself. Which, for a Porsche, is a long time
    indeed."

    Porsche Panorama, April 2001

    "In use, these are brakes with no sense of humor, and somewhere in the
    owner's manual it better say "don't put your foot on the brakes unless you
    look in the rear view mirror first." There might also need to be a word
    about having enough air in your lungs to go without breathing for a while
    during operation of the ceramic seizers. They are nevertheless quite linear
    and controllable, with sometimes a little pad squeak, but surprising little
    dust. They are reported to be very durable - as in forever - but be prepared
    to buy pads a bit more often."

    Suncoast Motors - on their website:

    "The 911 GT2 comes with the most effective braking system ever featured on a
    production Porsche: the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). This is a
    powerful new technology designed to cope with even the most extreme
    conditions on racetrack and road.
    At the heart of the new technology is a ceramic brake disc made of specially
    treated carbon fibre silicated in a high-vacuum process at approximately
    1,700 *C. The PCCB disc is cross-drilled and internally vented, and is
    approximately 50% lighter than conventional alternatives. Since this weight
    is unsprung, i.e., not supported by the suspension, PCCB automatically
    improves agility and handling. Another feature of the system is the
    innovative new composite brake pad, which combines with the ceramic disc to
    deliver extremely high and constant levels of friction under braking. By
    replacing conventional metal components with composite pads and discs,
    temperature is no longer a factor in brake performance. This configuration
    not only helps minimise braking distances - particularly under heavy use -
    it also ensures safer deceleration from high speed thanks to improved fade
    resistance.
    In an emergency stop, PCCB immediately delivers maximum stopping power to
    the road. Abrasion is extremely low compared with metal discs, with each
    PCCB disc offering a service life of approximately 300,000 km. The new
    composite brake pads also last around twice as long as conventional ones.
    What's more, the new PCCB pads do not absorb water, making for outstanding
    performance in the wet.

    Re: PPCB or NO PCCB??

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Quote:
    Uber-porker said:
    PCCBs simply look a lot better with most exterior colors. For most people apperance as well a performance is important.



    With all due respect to everybody (no kidding) BUT:

    How could an ugly, lumpy, chunky casting (caliper) when painted a distractingly bright red or bright yellow EVER LOOK GOOD?

    Are you guys nuts?

    They're hideous!

    Don't you see Porsche painted them to create "my-brakes-are better-than-yours" BS and one-upsmanship competiton between Porsche owners? This tactic certainly works in _Porsche's_ favor!

    Stoooopidest thing I EVER saw to paint the calipers in annoyingly loud colors! Second stuuupidest would be fake quads on the 997S.

    Does anybody care about letting really nice wheels have the stage to themselves and not have to share it with a freeking brightly-colored _tumor_?

    Sorry..., rant over... .



    Like it or not the calipers are painted. I also think that this adds value. Must live with one or other. Part of the package. Therefore one's own taste should prevail if possible. Extensive Porsche experience and/or knowledge is irrelevant. Let's move on.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    I won't even start to argue regarding caliper paint, I leave it to those who care.
    To make it short: I would NEVER EVER order a Porsche sportscar again without PCCB. Period.

    I didn't like PCCB at the beginning when it showed up. Most reviews were pretty bad and even the second and third generation (which made their way to the customers without people even noticing it) weren't too good. With the introduction of the 997, things changed. I HAD to buy a 997 Carrera S with PCCB because I wanted one of the first cars out of a special batch with the non-PASM sport chassis and LSD. All these cars were equipped with PCCB, so there was no option NOT to go for it. What a luck, from this point on, I started to love PCCB. Very firm brake feel, very precise braking dosage, impressive performance during hot days, etc. The only thing which never really improved much was...squeaking. Even my current 997 Turbo PCCB has squeaking, it is VERY loud but fortunately, it comes and goes and it happens VERY seldom.

    Hope this helps.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    RC,

    I have approx. 1500 miles on my TT and the PCCB's only squeak AFTER a days drive when I'm pulling into my driveway ! Are they yelling out "Thank you G-D, I'm finally going home ?". Other than the loud squeaks, they ARE the best brakes I have ever used in a road car.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    Just wondering: can you shoot a spray of brake cleaner onto them and de-squeek-ify them?

    Probably too messy for routine use?

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    My PCCBs have never squeaked.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    There are many threads on the pros and cons of PCCB. This is one of the best.


    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=362137

    The short version: The main advantage of PCCB is reduction in unsprung weight. The main disadvantage is cost.

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    One personal factor that played a major role in not ordering the PCCB option for my 2008 TT is that I cannot use my 18" Carerra III wheels with my winter tires.

    I did not want to purchase another set of 19" wheels and use 19" winter tires and basically chuck my current winter wheel/tires. Essentially this makes the PCCB option, if I'm going to drive the TT in winter here in Chicago, a $14k option (9k PCCB + 5k winter wheels and tires). That said, if the PCCBs were 4k....hmmmm....

    Re: PCCB or NO PCCB??

    I agree that it is a very VERY good discussion and would also highly recommend reading it. Even though that "RC" wouldn't readily admit to it, as the "interrogator" I would like to add "great bite/feel" to your short summary, though.

    So if I have to a provide a 2 seconds summary on why I kept that 9k box checked and why I have second thought of upgrading to Brembo GT instead:

    (Supposed) Pro's: Great feel/bite, improved suspension related performance due to less unsprung weight that could be felt even with street driving, less brake dust.
    (Supposed) Con's: Cost, not necessarily recommended for aggressive track driving.

    I added "supposed" in hope someone doesn't jump in to disagree and start this thread all over again.



    Quote:
    AUM said:
    There are many threads on the pros and cons of PCCB. This is one of the best.

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=362137

    The short version: The main advantage of PCCB is reduction in unsprung weight. The main disadvantage is cost.


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 3/29/24 1:47 PM
    Enmanuel
    691173 1781
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 2/19/24 11:51 PM
    Wonderbar
    410246 564
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    256274 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    235434 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    65761 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    4747 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    858880 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    775201 3868
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/6/23 7:43 AM
    crayphile
    448692 1276
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    379774 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 2/22/24 5:16 AM
    tso
    366299 1424
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    361392 797
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    355369 2401
    Lambo Aventador and SV 3/30/23 1:59 PM
    CGX car nut
    280021 724
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 4/21/23 8:09 AM
    the-missile
    276377 550
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 3/14/24 8:55 PM
    blueflame
    273050 658
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    248457 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    225511 346
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    218297 488
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    197268 101
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    155596 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    127151 144
    Ferrari [2022] Ferrari Purosangue (SUV) 4/15/23 5:20 AM
    watt
    120724 141
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    106168 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    102640 685
    Others Valkyrie final design? 4/28/23 2:45 AM
    Rossi
    97785 219
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    81188 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    74462 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    52277 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    23118 237
    132 items found, displaying 1 to 30.