Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: C2S or C4S? - Page1

Jul 12, 2007 7:56:46 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007

C2S or C4S?

I know this had been discussed many times but I would still like to know more about the 2 models in terms of the actual performances. For the extra 6k we're paying, does the AWD justify for that cost? Is it more than just the AWD we're getting? :P

As far as i know about the 2 models:
Pros:
-Better handling in wet/snowy conditions/weather.(how much better? I'm not too sure yet)
-wider rear body (44mm, and yes it does looks hella good!)

Cons:
-Less storage area due to the more complicated front axle of the AWD system.
-Harder to find tires as the rear wheels are bigger and wider than the C2S.
-the feel to the car is not as smooth and involving as the 2WD.

Anyways, are there anymore differences between the 2 models? I heard the brakes are better on the C4S, can somebody clear things out a bit for me here? thanks

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Jul 12, 2007 7:59:26 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

For you living in Canada, go with the C4S. For me in Los Angeles, a C2S would be a better choice.

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Jul 12, 2007 8:17:18 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: vtrader

Re: C2S or C4S?

but with the PSM standard on the RWDs, does the 4WD really justify for the extra cost? I'm asking this question because many supercars (veyron, murcielago, 997 turbo etc) are all AWD. Does it mean that AWD are really that much better for sports car? i'm confused.

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Jul 12, 2007 8:19:07 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

Jeremy from topgear also said once, only the AWD can handle the 1k bhp on the veyron. But to my knowledge, ferrari never made any AWD or at least their current model line does not include one single AWD cars. However, I had witnessed how the ferrari drives on icy/slippery roads.. it's awful ><

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Jul 12, 2007 9:10:25 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

IMHO, one should pick C4S only if there is absolutely no option except to go for AWD. It's more important to get winter tyres in snow/cold conditions (below about 7C). In very icy conditions, AWD may help with greater traction.

A more 'positive' reason for getting the C4S is the wider body. But you will struggle to notice 22mm on each side unless you are actively looking out for it.

However, what's the price one pays? IMHO, the steering of the C2S is much, much better. It's light which makes the car feel so much more agile and nimble. In a C2S, 100% of the power is behind you. 62% of the weight is on or behind the rear wheels. Only 38% is in front of the rear wheels. In a C4S, between 5%-40% of the power goes to the front wheels. I love the RWD sensation. Like a Tonka toy. Bigger wheels behind thrusting the whole car forward. The front end going light. Using the rear weight in a different way through high speed bends. It's a rare pleasure. The AWD C4S loses that appeal for me. It handles like other cars would handle. I love the sensation of being pushed through bends from behind. I prefer that to being pushed partly from behind and also partly being pulled though bends by the nose like a buffalo with a ring and rope though its nostril!

With all the power going to the back wheels, the traction out of corners is amazing. With a rear LSD, like I have on the -20mm, it helps even more.

People mistakenly argue that the 911 isn't a special enough experience. They couldn't be more wrong. The RWD experience in a 911 is a sensation which very few cars offer today.

The C4S has the same red caliper brakes, same discs etc except, on top of what the C2S has, it has an additional feature: a system which pre-prepares the brakes to be operated. I can't remember the exact detail but you can easily read about it in the 997 brochure. It's all in there.

I have a C2S. I'm biased in the sense that I made a conscious choice between C4S and C2S and went for the latter. Would I do it the same again? 100% for sure I would. But I live in London so all we get is rain. It hardly ever snows here and even then, it hardly ever settles. Yes, it gets icy in winter but careful driving is fine. I don't even have to put winter tyres on so you can realise from that how mild our winters are.

My advice to you is that in poor conditions, use winter tyres in winter and always exercise extra caution. That will help you more than enough.

It goes without saying that I voted for the C2S.

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Jul 12, 2007 9:44:18 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: C2S or C4S?

Nicely said rider!!!
I hope this helps me in making up my decision. =]
Btw, i live in Toronto and the weather here can sometimes get out of hand. However, I'm keeping it in mind that the RR engine layout will greatly increase the traction of the car during the heavy winter. And with more boot space, the C2S is more tempting for me as a daily driver.
Anyways, can somebody compare the driving experience of the RR to a FWD car during heavy snow winters? I drive a front-engine RWD MB Eclass and also a FWD honda civic. The MB is horrible but the honda gives me enough traction for the heavy winter that we got here in Toronto.
If the RR engine layout can be as good as the FWD on snow, I think the verdict has been made. =]

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Jul 12, 2007 2:23:24 PM

1st997: Co-Pilot; Loc: CT; Posts: 272, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 21, 2005; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

easy_rider911 said "It's more important to get winter tyres in snow/cold conditions (below about 7C). In very icy conditions, AWD may help with greater traction."

This is spot on. You MUST have winter tires for cold temperatures (below 45 F). Here in CT, there are issues of ground clearance (in the winter) that neither the C2S or C4S can address.

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Jul 12, 2007 2:57:33 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14183, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: 1st997

Re: C2S or C4S?

With the RWD you will get through the snow...
but with the AWD you will be able to drive through the snow, be on the fast lane when it is snowing and there is 20 cm of it on the road , pass all other cars exept other 4x4 SUV or Subaru, and feel totally in control of the car.

Am I satisfied with my C4S , yes !
Will my next one be a AWD, no ! ( I will gain pleasure on dry roads, but loose on snow or rain)

On track when it is raining I am faster then the GT3 !

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Jul 12, 2007 3:10:17 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: C2S or C4S?

I had a 997C2S which I absolutely loved and I was a 100% RWD fan..now I have to say I quite enjoy the 996C4 I have, and yes, the feeling is less direct, but you cannot compare the 2 cars anyway...but on the wet it makes such a difference...and I like to push also when it's wet, which with the C2S even LSD was more tricky in all honesty.
And also, since it is a daily driver for me...next will be 4WD again...
It's a matter of taste at the end of the day...

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Jul 12, 2007 3:11:52 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Gnil

Re: C2S or C4S?

I'm just going with the unquestioned, dominating and life-long prejudice that you buy the C4S if you live in Scandanavia or track it on rainy days.

Still, if it were on the lot and had everything else I wanted, I'd buy it instantly.

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Jul 12, 2007 3:39:14 PM

WR: Senior; Loc: Taipei , Taiwan; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 26, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: C2S or C4S?

Love the look = C4S and Love the driving feel = C2S

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Jul 12, 2007 3:47:15 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: C2S or C4S?

I've not voted because to me it's 50/50.

I'd choose the C2S for better steering feedback
I'd choose the C4S for the weightier steering, the sexier hips and because the nose bobs less.

For me the trade off is about equal.

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Jul 12, 2007 5:34:22 PM

Haku: Pilot; Loc: TN , United States; Posts: 481, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 6, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: C2S or C4S?

Total surefootedness would make me want to stay with the C4S. I've done the Tail of the Dragon a few times in it and I know that the extra grip even on a dry surface has saved me from a few white knuckle moments. The C4S is like driving on rails with little effort by an average driver and is incredibly forgiving. Love it's looks too.

BTW, it's also worth taking into account the difference in the braking system on the C4S. Here's a copy and paste from some magazine describing it:

The brake booster in the Porsche 997 Carrera 4 is more compact allowing for a larger fuel tank and it is also a more powerful brake booster. Porsche Stability Management (PSM) Plus is now exclusive on the 997 C4 & C4S models. The two special functions of this are brake assist and the pre-filling of the brake system . The pre-filling of the brake system causes light braking pressure to be applied to the wheel brakes by the PSM hydraulic unit in the event of a sudden release of the gas pedal (indicates imminent emergency braking). As a result, the brake pads are lightly applied to the brake discs and are thus optimally prepared for the imminent braking. The brake assist is triggered by strong pressure on the brake pedal, as occurs in emergency situations.

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Jul 12, 2007 7:09:48 PM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Haku

Re: C2S or C4S?

it's nice to hear all of your opinions on this debate.

I cannot decide which one still as I had no Porsche experience on wet roads. As of now, I am leaning towards the C2S mainly for it's extra boot space and better steering feedback. The extra cost is not a problem but if i can live with the RWD during the winter, I might as well save that 8k up and use it on the car insurance. =]

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Jul 12, 2007 7:10:58 PM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

but about the sexier hips... hmm, how much sexier?

(im tempted by the looks!)

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Jul 12, 2007 7:59:58 PM

dr.j: Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 375, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 10, 2006; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

Quote:
Bon said:
but about the sexier hips... hmm, how much sexier? (im tempted by the looks!)

1.732 inches, or = to having to choose between Jessica Alba or Halle Berry.

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Jul 13, 2007 4:56:56 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: dr.j

Re: C2S or C4S?

i need more inputs guys!!
which one is the better deal? =]
another 10k for me on the AWD is killing it.. from a C2 to C2S, I have to take that step because that sounded more like a bargain for the extra 16k I'm spending. but then is the AWD really that good? will you guys get the C4 or the C2S if budget is an issue?
Well right now, the most important question for me is that how does the C2S compare with any FWD cars on slippery/snowy roads? If the C2S can hold its grip as good as a FWD on snow then I think the decision has been made. =]
I never bought RR engine cars before, so i have no idea how it compares with ordinary RWD european cars like MB, BMW etc.

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Jul 13, 2007 5:00:06 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

I know the C2S will never be as good as the C4S on slippery roads and that's a fact. It's like hot vs hotter. so is the C2S still consider "hot" on the snow?

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Jul 13, 2007 8:02:27 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14183, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Bon

Re: C2S or C4S?

If it does not HAVE to be your daily driver, if you have the Honda for those really bad snowy days,and as the extra cost seem to matter, I would then take the C2S.

The best thing to do would be to go for a test drive on a rainy day, and try both. You will see the difference.

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Jul 13, 2007 8:22:18 AM

Porker: Rennteam VIP; Loc: SZ , Switzerland; Posts: 7065, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: C2S or C4S?

ALthough I don't have experience with any of them, I'm a C2S-man, so that one gets my vote!

I hope Porsche decides one day to give the C2S the widebody too (993 C2S), that's the only thing that attracting me to the C4S now...

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Jul 13, 2007 9:10:57 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Porker

Re: C2S or C4S?

I might as well get the turbo if I'm throwing away so much money already. for 60k CAD more, I get 125 more bhp, 0-60 in 3.7sec and the pride of owning the most expensive 911 on the 997 product line. Also, I get full leather interior with powered sport seats w/o spending an extra penny. The metallic color also comes free of charge on the turbo.
If it's a once in a lifetime thing, I think I'm seriously considering the turbo. =P
However, I can't agree more that all models on the 911 range are the most brilliant out there and are spectacularly good to drive!

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Jul 13, 2007 11:51:38 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Bon

Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

If you;re serious the dealer will let you drive both cars extensively. and if you;re smart you will agree to two sessions: one dry day and one wet day. then decide which you feel most comfortable with. It's easy to get sucked into everybody's personal preferences when the only one that counts is yours. Spend some time with the cars not here!

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Jul 13, 2007 1:07:01 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

Snow and rain problems? No problem get C4S. Case closed.

If no snow and rain problems then the following applies:

I may be crazy but once you actually buy a C2s _or_ a C4s, you'll be happy and you'll think you made the best decision for yourself.

IOW, I'm guessing nobody ever regrets getting either car.

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Jul 13, 2007 7:33:08 PM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: MMD

Re: Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

Seems like my spec for the facelift will be as follows:

997 Carrera S or Carrera 4S
-Metallic paint (Meteor grey/arctic silver/basalt black)
-Heated seats
-Floor mats
-Sport Chrono
-Short shifter
-Clear markers
-19" Classic wheels

Anymore must get option that I may need or that you guys recommend me to get? =]

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Jul 13, 2007 8:12:18 PM

tocho1: Newbie; Loc: New York; Posts: 29, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2006; Reply to: Bon

Re: Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

PCCBs

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Jul 13, 2007 10:21:29 PM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: tocho1

Re: Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

wouldn't the PCCBs overkills the C2S/C4S? And on a tighter budget.. i don't think i can afford the PCCBs as the C4S might already poses a problem for me. I'll see how both cars goes, a test drive in the winter sound like a good one. =]

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Jul 13, 2007 10:29:42 PM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: Bon

Re: Have you drive a C2S or C4S?

But when i consider PSM being standard on all the RWD models, i think the C2S will do just fine. First the RR engine gives more traction/grip to the road and snow tires will definitely improve handling on corners. So it's down to the sexy wider body. does that worth 10k? i will have to be on drugs to justify that. but again, both cars are very tempting. either one will satisfy my ambition to drive. =]

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Jul 14, 2007 3:24:05 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Bon

Forget PCCB's

Unless you have money to burn spend the $7K on track days and make a real difference to your performance. PCCB's don't stop you any shorter, so unless you're super sensititve to unsprung weight they're not worth it. And if you track a lot most track groupees seem to prefer steel discs anyway with harder pads and higher boiling point brake fluid.

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Jul 14, 2007 4:43:11 AM

cnc: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 197, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 21, 2003; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Forget PCCB's

And now for something completely different...

Get the PCCB option, it is the single best option out there. It inspires track confidence in rookies, wows the pros, and frustrates the guys who ride the brakes.

I will never buy another Porsche without them.

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Jul 14, 2007 9:35:01 AM

Bon: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 188, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2007; Reply to: cnc

Re: Forget PCCB's

the poll results are getting on my nerves! =P
it seems like wider body does compensate for the lost of the lighter and more involving feel of the RWD.

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