Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph - Page1

Jul 3, 2007 3:58:12 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005

New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/pr/670/670834/670834en.pdf

Para 22

22. Insists therefore, that from 31 December 2012, unless specially licensed for law enforcement, emergency or military purposes, no new passenger car model be allowed
onto the EU market if over-engineered to be capable of reaching speeds in excess of 162km/hour (101 mph), this being 25% more than the highest speed limit authorised in the vast majority of Member States;

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Jul 3, 2007 4:01:04 PM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

and commentary

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1026192007

[Sorry ed I forgot to put this in the right place as I was so incensed.]

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Jul 3, 2007 4:06:32 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Madness again....

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Jul 3, 2007 4:32:16 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
Jeannot said:
Madness again....

Here we go again....what do these guys smoke ? It's a madhouse

Ironically the proposal comes from a British politician (I was under the impression, that our British friends hate EU bureaucracy more than others - and I completely agree with them).

BTW the former German federal government (during the era of the former "red-green" coalition) analysed the effect on Co2 emissions in case of a general speedlimit on the Autobahn. The result: 1% less car-emissions (mind you, car emissions account for only 15% or so of the total emissions).
Hence even one of the most harcore greens (former federal minister for the environment, Mr. Trittin, kind of green Ayatollah) admitted in an TV interview, that a speedlimit would do nothing to really save emissions - therefore he would be against it

I guess this proposal is just another attempt from an unknown politician to get his 15 minutes fame though - it won't become law (just as the crazy attempt to restrict the Co2 Emissions of all cars to 130 g/km fortunatley failed)

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Jul 3, 2007 4:36:11 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
22. Insists therefore, that from 31 December 2012,

991/981 will be launched before 2012

Get ready to pre-order the next GT3 before it's too late

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Jul 3, 2007 5:47:37 PM

ResB: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Yorkshire, where roads are twisty... , United Kingdom; Posts: 2858, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 19, 2006; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

So, the EU is going to cripple the car industry with one clause. Won't happen, can't happen shouldn't be allowed to happen. In fact it's ludicrous.

Oh yeah, what on earth made you read that.

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Jul 3, 2007 6:18:37 PM

Alex_997TT: Rennteam Master; Loc: Reading , United Kingdom; Posts: 3320, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2005; Reply to: ResB

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

If this ever came in I would immigrate straight to the US without blinking. A '1984 state' is already way closer than it should be in the UK. This concept is beyond a joke.

I still think the CO2 'issue' is a huge political scam anyway. Given the total human contribution to the greenhouse effect is 0.28%. 0.117% in CO2 (a relatively weak greenhouse gas) and 0.163% of NOX, methane and other misc gases. It's almost hard to reason that the sun is not the real influencing in our global warming 'crisis'. I really don't believe that if we took every car off the planet right now it would make the slightest difference to global warming.

If they really want to stop people speeding then introduce electronic limiters to all new cars for the public roads (removable for track fun). Not decimate the car industry. That's just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

What's next; eating meat being made illegal by vegetarian politicians?!

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Jul 3, 2007 6:55:45 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

There are so many Big Brother things they can do it's ridiculous.

Have a nightmare dreaming them up.

How about speed and GPS uplink to "Law Enforcement" satellite which automatically knows you are speeding and isues a ticket or disables your car?

Sensors in the bumper report and ticket if you're tailgating.

My bet is the global economy will fall apart first making all these concerns (e.g. EU cars max at 100mph) seem quaint.

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Jul 3, 2007 7:09:27 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

It used to be that Europeans frowned on the US 55mph speed limit... Now many US roads have a 75mph limit and in many places it is possible to drive much faster. No car is speed limited in this country by law. It seems that the EU is becoming a police state. Too bad.

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Jul 3, 2007 8:09:53 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:

What's next; eating meat being made illegal by vegetarian politicians?!

+++ Yes. Meat is murder.

No to all speed limits. Instead drive at a safe speed considering the prevailing conditions, driver skill and car capacity.

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Jul 3, 2007 8:48:55 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
Jeannot said:
Madness again....

Here we go again....what do these guys smoke ? It's a madhouse Ironically the proposal comes from a British politician (I was under the impression, that our British friends hate EU bureaucracy more than others - and I completely agree with them).

BTW the former German federal government (during the era of the former "red-green" coalition) analysed the effect on Co2 emissions in case of a general speedlimit on the Autobahn. The result: 1% less car-emissions (mind you, car emissions account for only 15% or so of the total emissions).
Hence even one of the most harcore greens (former federal minister for the environment, Mr. Trittin, kind of green Ayatollah) admitted in an TV interview, that a speedlimit would do nothing to really save emissions - therefore he would be against it

I guess this proposal is just another attempt from an unknown politician to get his 15 minutes fame though - it won't become law (just as the crazy attempt to restrict the Co2 Emissions of all cars to 130 g/km fortunatley failed)

The politicians are getting just as crazy in the U.S. Frankly, the global warming scare is being used to increase government control over our lives. IMHO, the limited freedoms we have are being gradually eliminated, all without any real proof that driving our cars causes global warming.

The whole global warming scare is based on the logical fallacy of "post hoc, ergo propter hoc," which translated from Latin means "after this, therefore because of this." These goofballs (politicians and the scientists who claim consensus for the notion that human activity causes global warming) just want to scare us into giving up our great performance cars.

Have any of these so-called scientists tried to get a good measurement of the amount of solar radiation hitting the earth? It does vary from day to day, month to month, and year to year. The earth has experienced such warming and cooling trends over the past thousands and millions upon millions of years, all without human activity. What makes them think this isn't happening again?

Well, NUTS TO THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim

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Jul 3, 2007 9:51:48 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph

Political posturing....

Two of EU's most critical exports/wealth generators are Germany's cars (and the derestricted ABs that are critical for R&D/testing/real-world crash data generation of cars w/latest-tech high-speed dynamics/safety)...and London's financial industry....

Many advantages of US/EU/RoW globalization....capital flows easily to where it is optimally invested/consumed; affluent people increasingly choose where to primarily reside/have wkend homes based upon quality-of-life considerations....and tax dollars of <<1% of population can easily change national/state tax revenues/budget deficits and political fundraising campaigns for major elections (consider tax revenue dynamics in CA/NY/NYC/CT and US Presidential campaign fundraising hurdles

)....

Some London car nuts already keep their more interesting cars at a Munich wkend house for more optimal use....and a few car nuts from NYC/Chicago have gotten LA wkend houses for optimal environment for their cars/driving....ability of affluent car nuts to arbitrage local inefficiencies/regulations is greater than ever before....and I suspect most politicians/regulators in economically-relevant global epicenters realize this phenomenon will likely intensify over next few yrs....

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Jul 3, 2007 10:02:46 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Porsche-Jeck

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Quote:
Jeannot said:
Madness again....

Here we go again....what do these guys smoke ? It's a madhouse Ironically the proposal comes from a British politician (I was under the impression, that our British friends hate EU bureaucracy more than others - and I completely agree with them).

BTW the former German federal government (during the era of the former "red-green" coalition) analysed the effect on Co2 emissions in case of a general speedlimit on the Autobahn. The result: 1% less car-emissions (mind you, car emissions account for only 15% or so of the total emissions).
Hence even one of the most harcore greens (former federal minister for the environment, Mr. Trittin, kind of green Ayatollah) admitted in an TV interview, that a speedlimit would do nothing to really save emissions - therefore he would be against it

I guess this proposal is just another attempt from an unknown politician to get his 15 minutes fame though - it won't become law (just as the crazy attempt to restrict the Co2 Emissions of all cars to 130 g/km fortunatley failed)

I was also surprised this came from a Brit...Those people have nothing else to do?
Anyway, I truly hope the German car industry+hopefully some reasonable citizens will oppose this madness.
And this Co2 thing is just ridiculous. What? Europe to have cars with 70g/km when many places don't even bother with catalytic exhausts?
This is just Europe at its worst.

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Jul 3, 2007 11:34:07 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: WBH

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph

Quote:
WBH said:
Political posturing....

Two of EU's most critical exports/wealth generators are Germany's cars (and the derestricted ABs that are critical for R&D/testing/real-world crash data generation of cars w/latest-tech high-speed dynamics/safety)...and London's financial industry....

Many advantages of US/EU/RoW globalization....capital flows easily to where it is optimally invested/consumed; affluent people increasingly choose where to primarily reside/have wkend homes based upon quality-of-life considerations....and tax dollars of <<1% of population can easily change national/state tax revenues/budget deficits and political fundraising campaigns for major elections (consider tax revenue dynamics in CA/NY/NYC/CT and US Presidential campaign fundraising hurdles )....

Some London car nuts already keep their more interesting cars at a Munich wkend house for more optimal use....and a few car nuts from NYC/Chicago have gotten LA wkend houses for optimal environment for their cars/driving....ability of affluent car nuts to arbitrage local inefficiencies/regulations is greater than ever before....and I suspect most politicians/regulators in economically-relevant global epicenters realize this phenomenon will likely intensify over next few yrs....

Your writing style is like VKSF's and some other alias who posts here frequently. The language, phrasing and examples used are quite characteristic. Are you all 3 the one and the same?

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Jul 4, 2007 4:27:27 AM

SrfCity: Expert; Loc: Orange County, CA; Posts: 1339, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 21, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

I read this today and thought it summed it up nicely;

"The reality is that "Humans cause Global Warming" is just a device to give people something to fret about without having to stand up to the government. In other words, people worried about the wars but too afraid to defy the government gratefully accept Global Warming as their cause because it gives them something to take action against while staying safe.

Ultimately, every solution offered to solve Human-caused Global Warming amounts to submission to a central authority over what and how much fuels one is allowed to use, how ones lives their life, how the landscape their homes, etc."

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Jul 4, 2007 6:11:53 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Alex_997TT

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
Alex (UK) said:
I still think the CO2 'issue' is a huge political scam anyway. Given the total human contribution to the greenhouse effect is 0.28%. 0.117% in CO2 (a relatively weak greenhouse gas) and 0.163% of NOX, methane and other misc gases. It's almost hard to reason that the sun is not the real influencing in our global warming 'crisis'. I really don't believe that if we took every car off the planet right now it would make the slightest difference to global warming.

This statement is rational and logic. Today

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Jul 4, 2007 6:21:32 PM

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registered on: May 28, 2005; Reply to: AUM

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

I'm against this law because it's irrational and clearly comes from the envy syndrome. Going fast (i.e. having fun) should not be a crime; driving *badly* at whatever speed should be a crime (especially people who don't use their indicators - my bugbear).

I do believe that Global Warming exists because there is so much evidence for it - I have seen many computer models and they are remarkably good (they are tested to predict what has occured in the past to calibrate them so you have more confidence in their predictions of the future). We can't deny we have an impact on the environment - we're such a successful species it's illogical to believe otherwise. But I believe with a bit of science and care we can have fun *and* keep our thin smear of green on our plant healthy.

God I'm sounding really boring now aren't I?

SoS.

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Jul 4, 2007 8:58:42 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
SonOfStig said: I do believe that Global Warming exists because there is so much evidence for it - I have seen many computer models and they are remarkably good (they are tested to predict what has occured in the past to calibrate them so you have more confidence in their predictions of the future). We can't deny we have an impact on the environment - we're such a successful species

I understand computer modeling and prediction algorithms, and I also know that they are often prone to garbage-in-garbage-out - watch short term weather prediction, and think about long-term weather prediction. Those famous computer models have been proven to predict the past when tested against real data.

Think about a more reasonable physical model. Consider a 1000-person enclosed theater with poor ventilation, filled to capacity (and no air conditioning). After the second act it is hot inside, even when the max ventilation is open. Remove 3 people (0.28% of the human contribution to heating the theatre - see the pattern here). Do you think that removing that 0.28% is changing the temp inside much?

Let us be reasonable and move on.

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Jul 4, 2007 10:00:03 PM

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registered on: May 28, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Yes I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one; at least until we can thrash it out over a beer... Sometimes in SF will PM you when I'm around.

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Jul 5, 2007 8:38:55 AM

mv: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 519, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 8, 2004; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

A pathetic idea from the head of a very simple person.

Solution ?

Easy. Cars will not be electronically limited to 250 km/h from factory but to 160 km/h with dealers offering free ECU tweak.

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Jul 5, 2007 9:23:01 AM

wtsnet: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bath, UK; Posts: 2430, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
ADias said:Think about a more reasonable physical model. Consider a 1000-person enclosed theater with poor ventilation, filled to capacity (and no air conditioning). After the second act it is hot inside, even when the max ventilation is open. Remove 3 people (0.28% of the human contribution to heating the theatre - see the pattern here). Do you think that removing that 0.28% is changing the temp inside much?

It depends what the threshold of the ventilation system is, what the equilibrium point is. If the vents can cope with maintaining the temperature with 997 people, then you stick another 3 people in, gradually the temperature will rise. If you take it down to 994, it'll gradually fall. Saying that a small percentage can't hurt is bad reasoning. It's like saying that if I pushed your car down a hill, and it accellerated at a slow rate towards a wall at the bottom of the hill then you wouldn't care too much.

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Jul 5, 2007 9:54:39 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: wtsnet

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

All sorts of crackpots and lunatics are jumping on the environmental bandwagon right now. It's a collective mass hysteria afflicting politicians, environmentalists and journalists.

This idea is almost as bad as Sheryl Crow's idea that, when we go to the toilet, to save the environment, we should use "only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required".

Thanks, Sheryl, but I think I'll decide how I should wipe my own ass. The only time I think I'll let you have any say in that matter is if you volunteer to do it for me!

Here's the link. Read it and weep: Sheryl Crow finally went 'off her trolley' (as we say in the UK):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6583067.stm

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Jul 5, 2007 11:29:14 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
All sorts of crackpots and lunatics are jumping on the environmental bandwagon right now. It's a collective mass hysteria afflicting politicians, environmentalists and journalists.

This idea is almost as bad as Sheryl Crow's idea that, when we go to the toilet, to save the environment, we should use "only one square per restroom visit, except, of course, on those pesky occasions where two to three could be required".

Thanks, Sheryl, but I think I'll decide how I should wipe my own ass. The only time I think I'll let you have any say in that matter is if you volunteer to do it for me!

Here's the link. Read it and weep: Sheryl Crow finally went 'off her trolley' (as we say in the UK):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6583067.stm

If she can manage with one sheet per sh1t she must have a very small, very tight arse! Oh, and probably never eats curry.

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Jul 5, 2007 2:08:31 PM

stubenhocker: Pilot; Loc: PDX USA; Posts: 476, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2005; Reply to: mv

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

You guys will drive yourselves crazy using rational though to interpret irrational feelings!
Never let the facts stand in the way of a leftist's feelings.
A lot of German politicians, like Jurgen Trettin for example, have espoused these ridiculous ideas for years, now it seems Chancellorin Merkel has got the religion now as well with her support for the phasing out of nuclear power. It will be interesting to see these politicians wiggle and squirm when their desire to satisfy their feelings meets the reality of the damage that will be done to Germany's auto industry.

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Jul 5, 2007 10:47:27 PM

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registered on: May 28, 2005; Reply to: stubenhocker

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

OK, guys. In what seems a very irrational world right now, rationality is everything. Can we agree at least on that?

The only way to determine what is rational is to test it. Preferably with people who disagree. I just think, having spent a lot of time looking at the research, that it boils down to this: 1) with the exception of the sun and radiation into space, we live in a closed system. 2) We are getting increasingly good at turning stored carbon reserves into mechanical and electrical energy. 3) the lowest form of energy is heat which is the by-product of just about everything we do. 4) ergo, the world will get hotter.

That's fine. I'm not an "eco-mentalist" as clarkson says but it just seems dumb to think that we don't have an influence on our environment. Burning stored carbon is inevitably going to hot things up. Does that mean we're doomed? No, not as long as we are honest with ourselves and we deal with it.

That's all I ask. I think as P-car drivers, we are pretty clean b/c we use not so much fuel and our cars tend to go on forever. It's just I think we should be a bit conscious of the world around us and the consequenses of what we do. That's all I ask.

Sorry if this is a bit heavy....

SoS.

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Jul 5, 2007 11:29:26 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: AUM

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
AUM said:
Quote:
Alex (UK) said:

What's next; eating meat being made illegal by vegetarian politicians?!

+++ Yes. Meat is murder.

Not necessarily...what about harvesting a brain dead cow?

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Jul 6, 2007 12:20:15 AM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
SonOfStig said:
That's fine. I'm not an "eco-mentalist" as clarkson says but it just seems dumb to think that we don't have an influence on our environment. Burning stored carbon is inevitably going to hot things up. Does that mean we're doomed? No, not as long as we are honest with ourselves and we deal with it.

If there was proof that mankind's influence on warming is so significant that it has significant effects on temperature change and those temperature changes due to mankind's influence is significant enough to cause significant problems, then I agree that we should seek to limit that influence.

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Jul 6, 2007 9:17:00 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: AUM

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
AUM said:
Quote:
Alex (UK) said:

What's next; eating meat being made illegal by vegetarian politicians?!

+++ Yes. Meat is murder.

No country I know of considers killing animals for food or sport as "murder". That's reserved for intentionally killing humans unlawfully.

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Jul 7, 2007 12:09:20 AM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

What about all the other machinery in this planet, besides automobiles, that go unregulated and that contibute far more to noxious emmissions than our performance cars! Not to mention all the countries with archaic technology still around and the legacy left by the Soviet Empire all over Eastern Europe. Please, don't these politicians know that we are able to buy cars such as these because we are not morons?

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Jul 7, 2007 12:11:56 AM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Quote:
AUM said:
Quote:
Alex (UK) said:

What's next; eating meat being made illegal by vegetarian politicians?!

+++ Yes. Meat is murder.

No country I know of considers killing animals for food or sport as "murder". That's reserved for intentionally killing humans unlawfully.

If meat is murder, then I guess that makes me Joseph Stalin for I eat a lot of meat, red preferably!

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Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101mph

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

Re: New EU cars after 2012 to be incapable of 101m

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