Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500 - Page1

Jun 29, 2007 2:47:51 PM

95jersey: Senior; Loc: US; Posts: 578, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2006

Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Lots of our favorite cars...

The Players...

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/download/0708_lightninglap_players.pdf

The Rules...

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/download/0708_lightninglap_rules.pdf

The Results

http://www.caranddriver.com/assets/download/0708_lightninglap_theresult.pdf

Full Article...

http://www.caranddriver.com/features/13173/the-lightning-lap-2007.html

/uploads/361541-0708_lightninglap_theresult.pdf

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Jun 29, 2007 2:58:18 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: 95jersey

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

335i faster then Z4M and RS4...

997TT 8s slower then Z06

This C&D test is pure CRAP.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:03:42 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: 95jersey

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

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Jun 29, 2007 3:06:37 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

And thus the Thorsen AWD conversion for the 997TT, offered by Manthey

.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:07:29 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

And thus the Thorsen AWD conversion for the 997TT, offered by Manthey .

Doesn't that interfere with PSM and PTM?

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Jun 29, 2007 3:09:12 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

And thus the Thorsen AWD conversion for the 997TT, offered by Manthey .

Doesn't that interfere with PSM and PTM?

Not sure. They probably just reprogram it. They are a racing team after all.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:10:04 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

Grant,
These results are very, very strange...
For example 335i was way slower on every European track then RS4(Bedford-EVO, Hockenheim, Oscherleben, Nordshleife, Monza etc.). Same thing is with some other cars as well. Z06 is slower then 997GT3 as well on every European track...

It seems to me that some C&D journalist know how to drive only US made cars

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Jun 29, 2007 3:12:30 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

And thus the Thorsen AWD conversion for the 997TT, offered by Manthey .

Are you absolutely sure about Torsen? Torsen is much more heavy then current PTM 997tt Awd setup...
And which Torsen, B or C?

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Jun 29, 2007 3:24:46 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

And thus the Thorsen AWD conversion for the 997TT, offered by Manthey .

Are you absolutely sure about Torsen? Torsen is much more heavy then current PTM 997tt Awd setup...
And which Torsen, B or C?

Kreso, I have no idea. Gnil talked about it, so these questions would be better directed at him.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:50:35 PM

tony2006: Co-Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 229, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 26, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
335i faster then Z4M and RS4...
997TT 8s slower then Z06

This C&D test is pure CRAP.

Kreso - I disagree. C & D is one of few US magazines willing to give honest opinion, openly critize vehicles, and not afraid of pissing off car manufacturers. Second comes Motortrend. You will however never hear anything bad from Road and Track or Automobile.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:53:31 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

Grant,
These results are very, very strange...
For example 335i was way slower on every European track then RS4(Bedford-EVO, Hockenheim, Oscherleben, Nordshleife, Monza etc.). Same thing is with some other cars as well. Z06 is slower then 997GT3 as well on every European track...

It seems to me that some C&D journalist know how to drive only US made cars

Different tracks suit different cars. The assumption that cars closely related in performance will always perform the same on all tracks is not true. There are just too many variables.

In other words, these tests are entertaining and sell magazines but are of litle value.

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Jun 29, 2007 3:53:58 PM

trip: Expert; Loc: Bay Area California , United States; Posts: 1691, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 11, 2006; Reply to: tony2006

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

That may be true but they cannot drive for sh!t. There is no way a 335i is faster than an RS4 around a track. Also, they keep talking about mid corner "lift throttle oversteer" on the 911s. Why are they lifting mid corner? Everyone knows that you have to keep your foot planted in a 911!

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Jun 29, 2007 4:16:46 PM

DamienR8: Junior; Loc: New York, New York / Shelton, CT; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 12, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
335i faster then Z4M and RS4...
997TT 8s slower then Z06

This C&D test is pure CRAP.

+1 Kreso. Car and Drive again FAILS. Jesus, NOTHING is consistent in these comparisons. Well its all to sell magazines.

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Jun 29, 2007 5:59:15 PM

997GT3RS: Senior; Loc: Germany; Posts: 637, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

Agree, no improvement and just the look.

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Jun 29, 2007 6:18:58 PM

01Box06Z06: Pilot; Loc: Pennsylvania, USA; Posts: 300, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2006; Reply to: 997GT3RS

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

This was a very long track they tested these cars on. I think this track would favor HP over handling. The Z06 wasn't a slouch in the corners if you look at the sector data, but the outright hp advantage of the Z06 will allow it to pull on the long straights (look at the max speeds on the straights). On a tigter, lower speed course, I would definetly think it would be to the GT3s advantage.
There's a member on the Corvetteforum who owns both a Z06 and a 997 GT3 and he said on a long track the Z06 will be more forgiving because you don't have to worry so much about being in the correct gear or if you mess-up with an entry and have to lift that you can make up for it with the massive hp. He said you need to be sure you keep the revs up on the 997 to make the most of the lap.

I agree completely with 335 vs. RS4. It doesn't make much sense at all. The RS4 is supposed to be rock solid in the turns and build more and more confidence as you push the car. Not quite sure what they did there.

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Jun 29, 2007 6:30:32 PM

95jersey: Senior; Loc: US; Posts: 578, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2006; Reply to: 01Box06Z06

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Here are the video's.

http://www.caranddriver.com/carvideos/?bcpid=627028702&bclid=663505567&bctid=1076674601

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Jun 29, 2007 6:41:24 PM

elysium: Senior; Loc: Oslo; Posts: 553, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 26, 2004; Reply to: 01Box06Z06

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Quote:
01Box06Z06 said:
This was a very long track they tested these cars on. I think this track would favor HP over handling.

....

I agree completely with 335 vs. RS4. It doesn't make much sense at all. The RS4 is supposed to be rock solid in the turns and build more and more confidence as you push the car. Not quite sure what they did there.

This is especially strange if the track favor hp, as the RS4 has a 120 hp advantage on the 335i. Thats 40% more than the BMW, and still..

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Jun 29, 2007 7:11:48 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: elysium

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Quote:
elysium said:I agree completely with 335 vs. RS4. It doesn't make much sense at all. The RS4 is supposed to be rock solid in the turns and build more and more confidence as you push the car. Not quite sure what they did there.

This is especially strange if the track favor hp, as the RS4 has a 120 hp advantage on the 335i. Thats 40% more than the BMW, and still..

The 335i is underrated at 300hp (has closer to 330hp) and has a big fat torque curve and less weight than the Audi...

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Jun 29, 2007 7:24:10 PM

95jersey: Senior; Loc: US; Posts: 578, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2006; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Hey, the lotus beat the standard corvette by a 10th of second, so I can see how the 335 could pull it off. Isn't the RS4 a pretty heavy car? Also what kind of tires? The Lotus for example came with real R compounds.

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Jun 29, 2007 7:24:21 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Grant,
RS4 is 16s faster on the Nordschleife then 335i Coupe... RS4 time is 8.09min, 335i Coupe 8.25min. Difference on pretty short Hockenheim is over 2s(again, RS4 faster)...

C&D in this case is even not good for toilet paper.

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Jun 29, 2007 8:14:37 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

VIR times from 2 different C&D articles:

1 - Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 2:58.2
2 - Ford GT: 3:00.7
3 - Dodge Viper: 3:01.6
4 - Porsche 911 GT3 -3:01.8
5 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 3:03.6
6 - Lotus Exige S - 3:04.5
7 - Audi R8 - 3:04.6
8 - Porsche 911 Turbo - 3:05.8
9 - Shelby GT500- 3:05.9
10 - Lotus Elise: 3:09.2
11 - Porsche Cayman S: 3:09.5
12 - BMW M6: 3:10.0
13 - BMW 335i - 3:10.5
14 - Audi RS4- 3:11.2
15 - BMW Z4M - 3:11.7
16 - Nissan 350Z: 3:12.5
17 - Mitsubishi Evo MR: 3:13.5
18 - Pontiac Solstice GXP - 3:15.7
19 - Mazda Speed 3 - 3:16.0
20 - Dodge Charger SRT8: 3:18.2
21 - Mazda RX-8: 3:19.0
22 - Chevy Cobalt SS: 3:20.6
23 - Ford Mustang GT: 3:20.9
24 - Mini Cooper S - 3:22.9
25/26 - VW GTI and Honda Civic Si: 3:24.6
27 - Mazda MX-5: 3:29.3

My comment on results is

and we should treat them as

!

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Jun 29, 2007 8:30:43 PM

edz: Rennteam Pro; Loc: South Orange County; Posts: 2022, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 11, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
335i faster then Z4M and RS4...
997TT 8s slower then Z06

This C&D test is pure CRAP.

I would 2nd that

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Jun 29, 2007 10:22:22 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: edz

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Yeah, unfortunately, most US mags are lame - Brits do it much better...

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Jun 29, 2007 11:45:17 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Quote:
Grant said:
Yeah, unfortunately, most US mags are lame - Brits do it much better...

Often these test are done in cooperation with other car magazines many European. To totally discount the results would be a mistake.

What I find interesting is if the 997TT came out on top, none of this discussion would be taking place. Anyway you cut it, there is a pro Porsche bias.

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Jun 30, 2007 1:27:04 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Quote:
Grant said:
Seems like the 997TT is a step backwards from the 996TT on the track (maybe the GT3 too?)...

Grant,

When my friend got one of the first 997TT in Houston I took a 15 to 20 minute ride with him in the car and, to me personally, didn't have the same feeling and the sharpness that I felt when 996TT came out

.

For some strange reason didn't make me feel like hey I need to get my 401k out and get this, yes I'm that crazy

.

Needless to say he sold it after 20 days, he also indicated that it didn't feel like a sports car to him they way the 996TT did.

In my opinion the only true sports car from Porsche at the present time is the GT3 and I hope this car won't turn out to be like the rest.

What really hurts is that I still love Porsche but seem to me they purposely are pushing the die hearts away

.

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Jun 30, 2007 3:20:19 PM

Duncan: Pilot; Loc: Driftland; Posts: 410, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 3, 2005; Reply to: 95jersey

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Very strange result..........

Auto, Balocco circuit
Lamborghini Gallardo SE 2'47"42
Porsche 997 GT3 2'48"66
Corvette Z06 2'50"30
Porsche 997 Turbo 2'51"64
Ford GT 2'52"20
BMW Z4 M Coupè 2'56"67
Porsche Boxster S 2'58"10
BMW M6 3'00"70
MB SLK 55 AMG 3'00"10
BMW 335i coupe 3'02"49
BMW Z4 3.0si coupè 3'02"66

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/9146/335zd7.jpg

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Jul 1, 2007 4:12:14 AM

bondmid003: Pilot; Loc: La Jolla, CA , United States; Posts: 378, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 10, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
VIR times from 2 different C&D articles:

1 - Chevrolet Corvette Z06 - 2:58.2
2 - Ford GT: 3:00.7
3 - Dodge Viper: 3:01.6
4 - Porsche 911 GT3 -3:01.8
5 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 - 3:03.6
6 - Lotus Exige S - 3:04.5
7 - Audi R8 - 3:04.6
8 - Porsche 911 Turbo - 3:05.8
9 - Shelby GT500- 3:05.9
10 - Lotus Elise: 3:09.2
11 - Porsche Cayman S: 3:09.5
12 - BMW M6: 3:10.0
13 - BMW 335i - 3:10.5
14 - Audi RS4- 3:11.2
15 - BMW Z4M - 3:11.7
16 - Nissan 350Z: 3:12.5
17 - Mitsubishi Evo MR: 3:13.5
18 - Pontiac Solstice GXP - 3:15.7
19 - Mazda Speed 3 - 3:16.0
20 - Dodge Charger SRT8: 3:18.2
21 - Mazda RX-8: 3:19.0
22 - Chevy Cobalt SS: 3:20.6
23 - Ford Mustang GT: 3:20.9
24 - Mini Cooper S - 3:22.9
25/26 - VW GTI and Honda Civic Si: 3:24.6
27 - Mazda MX-5: 3:29.3

My comment on results is and we should treat them as !

So because your car didn't come out on top you're upset? Seems kind of childish don't you think?

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Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus, 500

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

Re: Car & Driver Test-GT3, 911TT, R8, Z06, Lotus,

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