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    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Ive said it before and ill say again now... I do not believe that the power increase will be anything like 25bhp. It would push the carrera way too close to the current carrera S and so on with the carrera S X51 becoming too close to the current GT3.


    I believe the power increase will be a maximum of 15bhp, probably more like 10bhp.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    Adam2S said:
    I believe the power increase will be a maximum of 15bhp, probably more like 10bhp.



    Agreed. Would fit much better to the Porsche philosophy as we all know it.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    I find it rather surprising when people still talk about tradition when it comes to sales, why did Porsche increase the engine capacity of the cayenne from 4.5 to 4.8 was that tradition. When sales are down tradition is left on the backburner and whatever it takes for sales to go up will be done.You guys are saying that if the increase is 25hp it would be too close to the X51 have you ever thought that the X51 would push the hp to 400hp. I know what you are thinking too close to the GT3 correct ! Do you know the reason why the new lights are not going to be on the GT3 correct there is ging to be a facelift with more power later, same for the turbo, expect a turboS with facelift lights, GT2 same thing in due course. Was the Cayennes ever more powerful than a 911 (cayenneS -340 up 385, CarreaS 355 up o at least 25 - 380, powerkit 400hp) Because of the lightweight of the GT3 porsche are not bothered about having a 400hp powerkit next to the GT3 obviously the drive will be different. So as earlier reiterated, facelift sept 07, power up by 20 -25hp. (Can you feel the difference if the power is upgraded by 10hp ? come on lets be realistic

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Best marketing strategy is the "one step at the time" one. this way they keep the product "fresh" in the eyes of the public for a longer time. So, why not cosmetic facelift first, new engines second and PDK third?

    At least such a schedule could explain why we have so many different rumors.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    ITALOKOKO said:
    I find it rather surprising when people still talk about tradition when it comes to sales, why did Porsche increase the engine capacity of the cayenne from 4.5 to 4.8 was that tradition. When sales are down tradition is left on the backburner and whatever it takes for sales to go up will be done.You guys are saying that if the increase is 25hp it would be too close to the X51 have you ever thought that the X51 would push the hp to 400hp. I know what you are thinking too close to the GT3 correct ! Do you know the reason why the new lights are not going to be on the GT3 correct there is ging to be a facelift with more power later, same for the turbo, expect a turboS with facelift lights, GT2 same thing in due course. Was the Cayennes ever more powerful than a 911 (cayenneS -340 up 385, CarreaS 355 up o at least 25 - 380, powerkit 400hp) Because of the lightweight of the GT3 porsche are not bothered about having a 400hp powerkit next to the GT3 obviously the drive will be different. So as earlier reiterated, facelift sept 07, power up by 20 -25hp. (Can you feel the difference if the power is upgraded by 10hp ? come on lets be realistic



    I think that you have made some very good points. I, too, believe that the facelift and power boost will occur sometime in Sept. I hope that you are correct in the 20-25 hp assumption. If Porsche bumps the 997S to 380, with DI and a facelift, I'll jump back in! I don't have any "insider" info, but past experience and my gut, tell me 10-15; I hope that I am wrong.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    I think you have kinda misunderstood the point I was trying to make - I will try to explain more clearly.

    The cars (TT not included) all have around 30BHP between them to distinguish the models in performance terms currently. To add 25BHP will mean that a current carrera S will suddenly be no faster than a new DFI carrera, and so on. This will hurt residuals across the whole range. If residuals are hurt then many customers will be very dissapointed - Porsche have a reputation in having strong residuals, wiping the cost difference of a whole model off the lineup would have disasterous effects on used values, which would of course have an impact upon new car sales. As well off as somebody needs to be to afford a porsche, many people myself included, buy a porsche not only for the performance and brand but also knowing its a relativly safe place to put your money - in terms of cars at this price.

    For instance, why would anybody pay for a used carrera S when they could have a brand new carrera with the same power? Therefore all pre-DFI shape cars will loose around Pounds6k-8k (UK prices) overnight. I do not believe Porsche would be silly enough to overlook the huge impact upon the used car market and therefore the likely impact on future sales.

    Lets assume its 25BHP and look at the figures and compare. (All prices used here are UK rounded to the nearest Pounds1,000)

    Model............Pre DFI.......With DFI........Price
    Carrera............325...........350..........Pounds59,000
    Carrera S.........355...........380..........Pounds66,000
    Carrera S X51..381...........406...........Pounds74,000
    GT3.................415...........440...........Pounds80,000

    Now lets look at prices compared by power before and after DFI.

    BHP Range...Pre DFI.......With DFI....Instant Depreciation
    325.............Pounds59,000..........n/a............n/a
    350-355......Pounds66,000.......Pounds59,000.......Pounds7,000
    380-381......Pounds74,000.......Pounds66,000.......Pounds8,000
    406-415......Pounds80,000.......Pounds74,000.......Pounds6,000

    Do you see what Im getting at???? 25BHP is too much, it moves each car into the band above and therefore damages used values which in turn will damage brand values and therfore new car sales.

    For this reason I believe porsche would not be silly enough to allow DFI to up power by more than 10-15BHP max. This range would keep customers happy and not move up each model into the range of the previous model above it and trigger the used price crash. If the DFI technology does naturally add more than that then I would expect Porsche to reconfigure the ECP to limit the upgrade back to 10-15BHP.


    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Here's what I don't get: why didn't the 997 have LED lights when it was introduced in 2005?

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Here in the states, Porsche's residuals are terrible.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Sad thing, people only expect a 25hp increase. Thus it will be only 15 in line with P tradition's of underwhelming people. The 997S needs 380hp and the base needs 350 right now.

    No LED, iPod hookup or bluetooth? This is 2007. All these are available on $20,000 cars right now, but not on $80k+ cars? What is the point of P making 2bio EUR a year if not to introduce new technologies faster? They have to wake up quick, because soon, outside of the US with subsidized prices, they are going to loose massive sales.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Sad thing, people only expect a 25hp increase. Thus it will be only 15 in line with P tradition's of underwhelming people. The 997S needs 380hp and the base needs 350 right now.

    No LED, iPod hookup or bluetooth? This is 2007. All these are available on $20,000 cars right now, but not on $80k+ cars? What is the point of P making 2bio EUR a year if not to introduce new technologies faster? They have to wake up quick, because soon, outside of the US with subsidized prices, they are going to loose massive sales.



    That is so true. The only reason I even considered a Porsche was due to the 997. Agreed, the minimum should be 380 for the S. Pretty much anything less, and I'll keep looking for a used one. Which IS what I'll be doing because we're getting 370 tops; probably 365! Porsche really stepped up with the 997, albiet very briefly...but they dropped the ball shorty thereafter.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Here in the states, Porsche's residuals are terrible.



    Compered with what? 911 residuals are actually pretty strong in the market.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Sad thing, people only expect a 25hp increase. Thus it will be only 15 in line with P tradition's of underwhelming people. The 997S needs 380hp and the base needs 350 right now.

    No LED, iPod hookup or bluetooth? This is 2007. All these are available on $20,000 cars right now, but not on $80k+ cars? What is the point of P making 2bio EUR a year if not to introduce new technologies faster? They have to wake up quick, because soon, outside of the US with subsidized prices, they are going to loose massive sales.



    I think people buying 911 don't care much about LED, iPod hookup or bluetooth. It is a 911 and kind of like buying a Ferrari, I don't see much people complain about that.

    About the HP, again it is a RR Flat 6, it is very different than any other cars. So you can't compared it with FR, MR V8.

    Seriously, I am tired about the HP war. And I think the HP is more than enough in real life.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    ITALOKOKO said:
    Are you ready to bet on this 911 for 911. The facelift is this year I can assure you



    Has everybody done the vote on page 26 of this threat?

    Greetings

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Remember I said between 20-25 hp, the power increase in the new Carrera will be 20hp hence 345 still 10hp less than the present carrera S, and carrera S will have 25hp - 380hp. I'm sure you were aware of the Boxster and Boxster S upgrades 5 and 15hp resp.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Well I wait to be convinced...

    25BHP for the S will wipe out the Pounds8000 paid for X51 by all owners overnight. Furthmore new DFI carrera S's with X51 will now have within 9BHP of an old GT3 with a lot more luxury. Bad news for GT3-lux owners too, again wiping off Pounds6000 overnight on all used GT3 values.

    Note that the Boxster got 5BHP so that it did not come anywhere close to the old Boxster S. The Boxster S was allowed 15BHP as it was still short of the Carrera's 325BHP. Any more would have spelt trouble. I think your examples further illustrate my arguement not go against it.

    As I stated above in my longer post - I just cant see Porsche damaging their brand in the way that 20-25BHP on any carrera except the TT would do. They are the masters of marketing and surely would see this.

    All this talk of 20-25BHP is wishful thinking, Porsche will be more thoughtful I am sure.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Could you then explain to me why Porsche decided to upgrade the BoxsterS 987 from 3.2 to 3.4 nowing that there are a few customers that just bought the 3.2 S a few weeks ago. Look Porsche don't do tradition anymore, when did you ever see a long line up of different 911 models ? the competition out there is stiff, the Astons, M3's are eating at the Porsche mkt and Porsche will do whatever it takes to keep abreast with the rest. Note this today, there is going to be a 3.8 GT3 and a 3.8 turboS with more power, the GT3 will rise to 440hp while the turbo S will be 500hp, the GT2 will stick to the 520hp throughout its life so the talk of the power being too close won't come in then.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    ITALOKOKO, I agree with you.
    Sorry Adam25, your logic is just wishful thinking. You assume that the prices won't change when I guarantee they will increase. That is what keeps the depreciation from feeling impacted. Since the 997 model was introuced here in the states, the base price has gone from $67,000 to $72,000. Doesn't that account in your computations? According to you, why would you buy a new S if you could have a 3 year old one for $10,000 less and nothing has changed yet. Well, the answer is there is always someone who wants the latest and greatest and is willing to pay for it. Kepp your 997 and wait for the 998. And the last guy who buys a facelifted 997 with DI will bitch and moan about how he got screwed one week before the model changed.
    I say, increase the power to the competitions limit and then cross over it!

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Carreraman - I think you make a very valid point about the price increase, which for sure will come with any changes. However we are talking about 10% differential in models in terms of price which would be quashed by at 25bhp rise, and a facelift price rise is more likely to be 3-4% I believe, still leaving a significant impact upon used values and therefore core porsche brand values and thus new sales.

    Also on what basis do you also believe that DFI will bring a 7% improvement in engine output?

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    I didn't mean to suggest that direct fuel injection alone would increase output by any percentage at all. Rather, I meant GIVE ME MORE POWER, however it comes by!

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:

    No LED, iPod hookup or bluetooth? This is 2007. All these are available on $20,000 cars right now, but not on $80k+ cars? What is the point of P making 2bio EUR a year if not to introduce new technologies faster? They have to wake up quick, because soon, outside of the US with subsidized prices, they are going to loose massive sales.



    Agree that the lack of creature-comfort technologies in a 65k car is strange.

    Could it be the fact that the driving experience is so dominant that they don't think you'll need it?

    In any case, it doesn't look like Porsche is gonna do anything about that in the short term? No real (interior) change in the new Cayenne, don't expect any major interior changes in the face lift 997...hmmm. maybe in the Panamara?

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Well they are still telling me it will arrive late Sept early Oct.

    I'm in my 3rd 997S now briefly changed to a BMW 650, fantastic motor with all the mod cons....lasted 2 weeks.....you can't beat the P if you like driving.

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    FWIW my dealer just told me that there will be no facelift in 2007. He may not have a clue though...just meaningless 'dealer-speak' Just thought I'd pass it on though..

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    who is you dealer ?

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    I asked mine, he says they do not have any infos...

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    The Cayenne and 997 interiors are fine. They just need iPod and bluetooth... And more 20+ HP on the 997, 40+ on the TT (considering lame NBR lap times).

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Just spoken to my dealer again whole is fielding this question every other call according to him. They had Porsche Head office with them last week and were told categorically that the facelift wouldnt be available until end 2008. They may show it at Frankfurt but thats straight from Porsche. Ive been waiting to trade in my Nov 2004 997s for afacelift so guess waiting another year. Dealer is Porsche Centre Hatfield

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    boonermills1 said:
    Just spoken to my dealer again whole is fielding this question every other call according to him. They had Porsche Head office with them last week and were told categorically that the facelift wouldnt be available until end 2008. They may show it at Frankfurt but thats straight from Porsche. Ive been waiting to trade in my Nov 2004 997s for afacelift so guess waiting another year. Dealer is Porsche Centre Hatfield



    Why should they already show it in Frankfurt this year, when it won't be available before end of next year?

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    OPC East London

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    boonermills1 said:
    Just spoken to my dealer again whole is fielding this question every other call according to him. They had Porsche Head office with them last week and were told categorically that the facelift wouldnt be available until end 2008. They may show it at Frankfurt but thats straight from Porsche. Ive been waiting to trade in my Nov 2004 997s for afacelift so guess waiting another year. Dealer is Porsche Centre Hatfield




    I have been dealing with Hatfield for years and I have got a good relationship with them. The sales rep ( I won't want to mention names so I don't get him into trouble ) categorically told me that the facelift will be Sept 07 (MY08). Are we dealing with the same sales rep. ? Mine is a man wears glasses, 6'2" and has a good smile. Looks a bit like Chris Evans

    Re: HOT: Pictures of 997 Facelift!!!!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    OPC East London



    easy_rider911, I'm a bit surprised you go to OPC East London they are the most unfriendly P-car dealers I've ever been to. Guys what they do is that when you drive in they see you (sales guys) so that will determine the kind of response you get from them. The first time I went there I was kept waiting for a while before I was attended to. Parking is a big problem too, come to Hatfield and see the difference.

     
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