Apr 22, 2007 2:00:23 AM
- RossoCorsa
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
MMD said:
I think they are great.ANYthing to reduce the clutter and visual confusion outside and inside these cars would be greatly appreciated by me, for one.
Here's a comp, FYI.
Comparing the two silver cars, I think the standard lights(top car) look MUCH better .
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
MMD you're always throwing around the term "form follows functions", well the standard lights are form follows function. The clear is for the turn signals and backup lights, and the rest are for brakes and markers. The all reds looks like its trying to hide the different functions under one color. I'd rather have honest design.
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
GA997S said:
Hey MMD...I'm glad you don't work for the Porsche design team.
I think there's alot of people who are glad they don't work for Porsche design/stylists. They talked about the 997 getting back to the spirit of the original 911. Looks like a failure to me. Marketing supresses inspired design; look at the new Subaru-esque Cayenne.
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
MMD said:Quote:
GA997S said:
Hey MMD...I'm glad you don't work for the Porsche design team.
I think there's alot of people who are glad they don't work for Porsche design/stylists. They talked about the 997 getting back to the spirit of the original 911. Looks like a failure to me. Marketing supresses inspired design; look at the new Subaru-esque Cayenne.
Why do you think going back to earlier Porsche design is a failure?
I think the interior of the 997 looks much better than that of the 996 for example.
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Do you think people would buy an $80K + car with the interior like the one in a 1967 911? Welcome to the 21st Century. Compare it to any new Ferrari interior and the 911 interior is pretty mild in comparison. And before anyone posts it, the 911 does not compete with the Lotus Elise.
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
Rossi said:
Why do you think going back to earlier Porsche design is a failure?
I think the interior of the 997 looks much better than that of the 996 for example.
BTW, The 996 was called the "loaf of bread" interior since all the shapes in it were that.
As far as 997 failure to "honor" or pay homage to the original 911?
Looking at this comparison of the two doors, if The Boss of Porsche said "This new door isn't simple enough, _keep_it_modern_ but make it simpler since the original 911 was the epitome of the company's philosophy of simplicity, efficiency and minimal stylistic frills...," if he said that you can bet our 997 doors would look alot different.
Do this same "Boss of Porsche" sending the design team back to the drawing board thought experiment for the comparison I posted above of the dash interiors of original 911 and current car. IMAGINE how the interior would change! Right now it looks bloated, busy and "looks like a car made to sell to the general public should look."
Most telling is the absence of the continuous line or band in the old dash (about four inches wide where the ignition key hole and the glove box cover reside), it's completely gone. The FUGLY PCM has kidnapped and held hostage this classic interior element and prevented it from coming to fruition.
That's why it "failed," IMO. (BTW, I'm just an amateur hobby-ist)
No big deal: just chatting... .
Apr 24, 2007 3:23:08 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Mmmmm.... I think you may be getting a bit too nostalgic and misty-eyed to see clearly MMD...
The old door, in retrospective comparison, has less flare, less style, little emotion, at face value... Of course once you mix in your own nostalgia for the car, it takes on more meaning than is really there, point-blank... But if you block out your nostalgia, it's a rather uninspired, style-deficient, door.. Probably the weakest area of the otherwise clean, classic and attractive original 911 interior. But simple alone DOES NOT equate to good or pleasing design, and I think that door is just a door....
Furthermore, there's really no more visual complexity in the 997 door panel than there is in the old 60's 911. It looks more modern, it's got much more rakish styling, but is no more busy really.
I love good sculpture (and the exterior styling of our 997's certainly qualify as good sculpture), and the interior of my 997 pleases me. The only thing that's overtly "busy" is the center-stack, which could certainly use some cleaning up and fixing up with regard to intuitive operation.
Good retro design should be evolutionary, not regressive for the sake of being stubborn and old-fashioned... I think the 911 has evolved beautifully over time, with a few hiccups here and there. But for the big picture, it's succeeded in evolving its simple and lovely style, inside and out, over 40 years, where all other classic marques have fallen off the tightrope completely at one time or another..
If you really love the simple and spartan early 911 styling, then buy one... They aren't that hard to find!!
The old door, in retrospective comparison, has less flare, less style, little emotion, at face value... Of course once you mix in your own nostalgia for the car, it takes on more meaning than is really there, point-blank... But if you block out your nostalgia, it's a rather uninspired, style-deficient, door.. Probably the weakest area of the otherwise clean, classic and attractive original 911 interior. But simple alone DOES NOT equate to good or pleasing design, and I think that door is just a door....
Furthermore, there's really no more visual complexity in the 997 door panel than there is in the old 60's 911. It looks more modern, it's got much more rakish styling, but is no more busy really.
I love good sculpture (and the exterior styling of our 997's certainly qualify as good sculpture), and the interior of my 997 pleases me. The only thing that's overtly "busy" is the center-stack, which could certainly use some cleaning up and fixing up with regard to intuitive operation.
Good retro design should be evolutionary, not regressive for the sake of being stubborn and old-fashioned... I think the 911 has evolved beautifully over time, with a few hiccups here and there. But for the big picture, it's succeeded in evolving its simple and lovely style, inside and out, over 40 years, where all other classic marques have fallen off the tightrope completely at one time or another..
If you really love the simple and spartan early 911 styling, then buy one... They aren't that hard to find!!
Apr 24, 2007 3:29:49 PM
- 69bossnine
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Apr 24, 2007 4:28:26 PM
- Mid-Life Fun
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Apr 24, 2007 5:47:12 PM
- MMD
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Mmmmm.... I think you may be getting a bit too nostalgic and misty-eyed to see clearly MMD...
The old door, in retrospective comparison, has less flare, less style, little emotion, at face value... Of course once you mix in your own nostalgia for the car, it takes on more meaning than is really there, point-blank... But if you block out your nostalgia, it's a rather uninspired, style-deficient, door.. [edited]
My point was that the acclaimed homage to the original 911 - the 997 "getting back to it's roots" - is an empty claim made by Porsche.
My door example and indicates to me absolutely no synergistic or wholistic connection of the old and new and shows only a simple restatement of separate parts like the door handle and the compartment. As per the complexity of the new door: most of it is given, not by a reworking of old 911 shapes, lines, textures, configurations into modern styling, but rather by the new (non-classic) set of what turns out to be characteristically 997 design elements.
The dash is a big problem should anyone at Porsche claim there's an evolution and a homage to "classic-911" there. It's again, the restatement of a few disperate classic items along with a large set of new (non-original 911) design elements.
Too bad. Yes the new car is nice (interior is waaaay too busy for my tastes); but there's none of the original efficiency, functionality, simplicity. If Porsche just wants to pay lip service to a long-gone company ethos and verrrry compelling unique aesthetic resulting from those wonderfully German starting points..., well..., they did a good job of lip service.
Just blabbing: no big deal... .
Apr 24, 2007 6:21:27 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Methinks you're expecting too much when they claim to pay homage to past styling and form... Any designer worth his salt (and I know a few from DC and Ford) cringes at the thought of what you're suggesting... They look to capture the spirit, but from an artistic integrity standpoint, they refuse to bald-faced plagiarize.
To go too far with "the original themes" would be a cop-out, any teenage design-school flunkie could pull that off... Besides, I see heritage in every corner of the new interior. It's simply more removed than you'd like. But I applaud that, as it looks like it was styled for the first time yesterday. If they went too far, then it would have that obvious look of "cheesy re-hash of other people's ideas"
We'll have to agree to disagree probably on this one... The new interior, AND exterior, hits the right balance with me.. Any more retro back to the roots efforts, and the car would be too kitschy. And removing the arch in the rear would DESTROY the 997, that's where the springing-cat tension is at its apex. It's the reason the 993 and prior cars now look "old" and timid parked side-by-side... Beautiful as artifacts, but no longer valid in a new car showroom. Let good evolution happen...
To go too far with "the original themes" would be a cop-out, any teenage design-school flunkie could pull that off... Besides, I see heritage in every corner of the new interior. It's simply more removed than you'd like. But I applaud that, as it looks like it was styled for the first time yesterday. If they went too far, then it would have that obvious look of "cheesy re-hash of other people's ideas"
We'll have to agree to disagree probably on this one... The new interior, AND exterior, hits the right balance with me.. Any more retro back to the roots efforts, and the car would be too kitschy. And removing the arch in the rear would DESTROY the 997, that's where the springing-cat tension is at its apex. It's the reason the 993 and prior cars now look "old" and timid parked side-by-side... Beautiful as artifacts, but no longer valid in a new car showroom. Let good evolution happen...
Apr 24, 2007 7:14:47 PM
- MMD
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Let good evolution happen...
Would be nice.
I guess there's two kinds of "good" evolution:
one kind of good which comes with a sympathetic meddling of the marketing-research department.
one good which comes when designers are allowed to do what they want.
My claim is IF the designers were allowed to do what they wanted in reincarnating the old 911, we'd have probably a more beautiful car. A car made that way by more _evolved_ references to original. There'd be no quads, no PCM, no pointy tailights; probably no overly swirling, paneled, stitched, textured, (Americanized?!
) interior. Alas, we'll never know. Unless there's someone who will fund a campaign of espionage of the P-design department.
Apr 24, 2007 7:22:38 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
I've never known a designer who, deep down, wouldn't want to trashcan the entire original car, and design their OWN icon from scratch, that would always and forever be attributed to THEM.. LOL!!! They have egos, and they HATE being forced to diddle with something that was drawn on a blank sheet of paper 40 years ago by ANOTHER GUY who's name is now in the history books...
They desire that blank sheet... It's the marketing guys who keep these guys feet on the ground, in reality, keeping the heritage in the equation. The heritage is where the bean counters know they can get more beans... The designers may say they appreciate the heritage, but they dream about the day they are given enough leash to create their own new thing/revolution..
They desire that blank sheet... It's the marketing guys who keep these guys feet on the ground, in reality, keeping the heritage in the equation. The heritage is where the bean counters know they can get more beans... The designers may say they appreciate the heritage, but they dream about the day they are given enough leash to create their own new thing/revolution..
Apr 24, 2007 8:14:42 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Besides, you're assuming that all designers would be obsessively minimalist like you are.... That's not always going to be the case...
Furthermore, some of the most iconic, coveted and valued designs of all time are riddled with elements you might define as unnecessary and superfluous, as there can indeed be beauty and art within wretched excess, every ying has a yang... Is a pillar silly and worthless when it's not really holding anything up??? Not necessarily....
Great design does not necessarily mean that it will appeal to everyone. And don't fry an automaker because they are producing what the people want for a particular place and time. They've got to do business, not play Andy Warhol.
Furthermore, some of the most iconic, coveted and valued designs of all time are riddled with elements you might define as unnecessary and superfluous, as there can indeed be beauty and art within wretched excess, every ying has a yang... Is a pillar silly and worthless when it's not really holding anything up??? Not necessarily....
Great design does not necessarily mean that it will appeal to everyone. And don't fry an automaker because they are producing what the people want for a particular place and time. They've got to do business, not play Andy Warhol.
Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
Texas911 said:
Do you think people would buy an $80K + car with the interior like the one in a 1967 911? Welcome to the 21st Century. Compare it to any new Ferrari interior and the 911 interior is pretty mild in comparison. And before anyone posts it, the 911 does not compete with the Lotus Elise.
I would.
So yeah, bring back the auxilary hand throttle.
Porsche should spend a little more on interior door panels. The cars exterior color showing at the bottom edge of the too short inside door panel seems cheap to me. Even a 1966 912 didnt do that.
Apr 24, 2007 8:57:05 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: What do you think about new rear light option?
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsche should spend a little more on interior door panels. The cars exterior color showing at the bottom edge of the too short inside door panel seems cheap to me. Even a 1966 912 didnt do that.
That's not cheap or poor design, that's SUPERIOR design. You've got an outboard and inboard weatherstrip sealing your door to the body, both helping to reduce road-noise intrusion, and increasing air-tightness at high speeds.. That's why the panel stops short of the perimeter, is because the inner weatherstrip seals around there.
In 1966, they didn't weatherstrip the cars worth a damn compared to today..
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