Crown
Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
Language: English
Region: Worldwide
Close
CloseForum - Thread
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Here are some samples:
"That's how it should work in theorie. In practice, the systems (PTM, suspension) do not function quite as harmonically as suggested by the theoretical perspective of the Porsche engineers."
"... suspension setup exhibits tumbling movements, switches between slight over and understeer..."
"... faster on HHR in softer suspension mode than in "sport"..."
"... feels strange in fast corners ... very demanding..."
Markus thank you. He pretty much confirms what other reviewers had to say. The car is a handle full at cornering speed.
For thoe of you that believe Porsche has lost its performance compass, I need not remind you that Porsche is laughing all the way to the bank. The 997TT could had ended last in every category compared to other performance cars and Porsche will still sell a ton of them.
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
VGA18 said:
The weight of the car was not mentioned also.
Suspicios btw comparison SLr did 7.40 and Lp640 did 7.40 also. Any possibility to challnege with these cars on 20km circuit.
My suspects crosses on a fly-by start
All Sport Auto Supertests are done with flying starts...
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
So the car is exactly like RC has said. Tougher to drive than the 996TT at the limit. I think there is a 996TT X50 somewhere in Germany with my name on it...
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
andrea said:
disappointing data
If you consider that the 997S clocked 8:05 on normal tires whereas the TT has been equipped with sports tires (which may provide an advantage of 5 sec) it's astonishing how close the laptimes are...
You know, it stupefies me to think that the new Turbo may be SLOWER than the 996TT on the Nring on standard tyres.
May? It is slower than the 996TT with standard street tires.
So, the 977tt is too focus on comfort to be track oriented. It's official Porsche has gone soft here.
They'll just have to try and redeem themselves will the GT2. God knows it won't make it on looks.
You know, I think the GT2 will actually be as fast as we hope for it to be. It just bothers me that the ultimate all-weather supercar has gone soft.
By now I believe that the GT2 will also be a BIG disappointment: GT3, GT3RS, TT - all these cars are slower or at least not faster than their predecessors. The GT2 will also be a screw up
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
So the car is exactly like RC has said. Tougher to drive than the 996TT at the limit. I think there is a 996TT X50 somewhere in Germany with my name on it...
Christian's first analysis of 997 turbo driving dynamics were right on the target!
After my own test drive I pretty much found the same opinion about manual version(even with LSD)...
Interesting thing is that most other owners here did not notice this things(or honestly said downsides of 997 turbo PTM setup/PASM chasis characteristics)
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
Here are some samples:
"That's how it should work in theorie. In practice, the systems (PTM, suspension) do not function quite as harmonically as suggested by the theoretical perspective of the Porsche engineers."
"... suspension setup exhibits tumbling movements, switches between slight over and understeer..."
"... faster on HHR in softer suspension mode than in "sport"..."
"... feels strange in fast corners ... very demanding..."
Markus thank you. He pretty much confirms what other reviewers had to say. The car is a handle full at cornering speed.
For thoe of you that believe Porsche has lost its performance compass, I need not remind you that Porsche is laughing all the way to the bank. The 997TT could had ended last in every category compared to other performance cars and Porsche will still sell a ton of them.
You are welcome
P.S.: Here in Europe there are plenty of used (low-mileage) 997TT on the market. Also, new 997TT are fairly easy to get from the dealers in the short-term. My guess is that the market will soon be flooded with 997TT. Following this supertest I hope that very few potential buyers will order a new 997TT.
We need to put pressure on Porsche. Only if their sales suffer they might change to the better
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
The problem is that the 997GT3 also exhibits rather poor performance compared to the 996GT3 Mk2. Thus, I would still continue to speculate that PASM is a key factor behind the underperformance recorded by sportauto
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
So the car is exactly like RC has said. Tougher to drive than the 996TT at the limit. I think there is a 996TT X50 somewhere in Germany with my name on it...
Christian's first analysis of 997 turbo driving dynamics were right on the target!
After my own test drive I pretty much found the same opinion about manual version(even with LSD)...
Interesting thing is that most other owners here did not notice this things(or honestly said downsides of 997 turbo PTM setup/PASM chasis characteristics)
Regarding owners' perception it is simply the case of most of the cars being owned by Americans and I would think that many don't really have the opportunity or the courage (think lawsuits) to exploit the car to its full potential. Christian, on the other hand, does seem to do it quite often. Not sure what he thinks of our reactions (which have been overwhelmingly negative) though, since he seems to be very pleased with the car.
Apr 20, 2007 8:40:58 PM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
-
- Loc: California , United States
- Posts: 896, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
-
Reply to:
MKSGR
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
The problem is that the 997GT3 also exhibits rather poor performance compared to the 996GT3 Mk2. Thus, I would still continue to speculate that PASM is a key factor behind the underperformance recorded by sportauto
I would speculate that its the magazine and a change in the way they time their laps.
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Hmm...
IMHO problem is not that much in PASM setup, but in new AWD setup called PTM.
This SOTA system is responsible for this 997tt dance between understeer and oversteer...
And one other thing that I noticed-almost all 997 turbo owners are not driving their car more then 7/10. This is also the reason that most of them said that car is perfectly stable, very safe and easy to drive.
BUT, if you drive it more then 7/10(say 8/10 or 9/10) then you realize that 997 turbo is not very friendly and that car is actually pretty demanding and requires focused and experienced driver(again nice German word-Kenner!)...
I agree with you 100%, the TT is more than a handfull at over 8/10th, but until that point it is deceptively stable and manageable. I still don't have the balls to turn psm off over 7/10th which brings me to your last sentence about experience: sorry for the ignorance, but could this Saurma fellow be less turbo inclined than NA inclined? just wondering because different driving techniques/experiences are required, I would think
.
Apr 21, 2007 3:35:28 AM
- Dock (Atlanta)
- Pilot
-
- Loc: Atlanta, Georgia
- Posts: 386, Gallery
- Registered on: May 1, 2002
- Reply to: AAHTT
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
aah986 said:... but could this Saurma fellow be less turbo inclined than NA inclined? just wondering because different driving techniques/experiences are required, I would think
Or were the suspension/tires not properly dialed in on this particular 997 Turbo?
Apr 21, 2007 4:08:44 AM
- SoCalHoosier
- Veteran
-
- Loc: California , United States
- Posts: 896, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 13, 2003
- Reply to: Dock (Atlanta)
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:Quote:
aah986 said:... but could this Saurma fellow be less turbo inclined than NA inclined? just wondering because different driving techniques/experiences are required, I would think
Or were the suspension/tires not properly dialed in on this particular 997 Turbo?
You honestly believe that these guys wouldn't know. Or is it the Porsche kool-aid speaking.
Come on... they've been testing these cars for years. In the past we always felt AMS was almost biased in Porsche's favor due to the sheer number of cars they were able to test.
Let the excuses begin... Where's the Porsche marketing cavalry when you need them.
Apr 21, 2007 5:47:13 AM
- AUM
- Veteran
-
- Loc: Germany
- Posts: 1203, Gallery
- Registered on: May 2, 2006
- Reply to: SoCalHoosier
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
So the car is exactly like RC has said. Tougher to drive than the 996TT at the limit. I think there is a 996TT X50 somewhere in Germany with my name on it...
+++ My X50 with H&R coilovers was completely predictable and trustworthy at the limit at the Ring. And it was faster than most GT3s and GT2s (certainly below 7.50).
But the weight of all turbos makes these cars unsuitable for more than a few hard laps.
Apr 21, 2007 7:56:12 PM
-
AAHTT
- Senior
-
- Loc: san diego , United States
- Posts: 654, Gallery
- Registered on: Jan 21, 2006
- Reply to: SoCalHoosier
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
SoCalHoosier said:Quote:
Dock (Atlanta) said:Quote:
aah986 said:... but could this Saurma fellow be less turbo inclined than NA inclined? just wondering because different driving techniques/experiences are required, I would think
Or were the suspension/tires not properly dialed in on this particular 997 Turbo?
You honestly believe that these guys wouldn't know. Or is it the Porsche kool-aid speaking.
Come on... they've been testing these cars for years. In the past we always felt AMS was almost biased in Porsche's favor due to the sheer number of cars they were able to test.
Let the excuses begin... Where's the Porsche marketing cavalry when you need them.
This ring number for the TT confirms one thing: Saurma is the slowest guy on this track when compared to previous numbers by other drivers. (the official number from porsche I found was 7.49 by Rohrl). btw, a regular 996TT needs 8 minutes.
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
...and von Saurma achieved 7.56min in 996tt!
Horst von Saurma is excellent driver and I trust him.
Do you know how many laps W.Rohrl needed to achive that 7.49min? Better not to ask...
Sure, your excellent driver achieved the same time in a car with less weight, 60 hp more and almost 100 ft/lb of torque more (that's 120 Nm for you), explain that to me, maybe he woke up on the wrong foot that day
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
aah986 said:
This ring number for the TT confirms one thing: Saurma is the slowest guy on this track when compared to previous numbers by other drivers. (the official number from porsche I found was 7.49 by Rohrl). btw, a regular 996TT needs 8 minutes.
Do you know the funny thing about your statement? Normally von Saurma's ring times are mistrusted only by the Ferrari crowd, when he repeatedly fails to achieve a time what they think their beloved Italian stallion should be capable of. But obviously the Porsche followers are as sceptical when it comes to their beloved piece of Zuffenhausen machinery.
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
aah986 said:Quote:
KresoF1 said:
...and von Saurma achieved 7.56min in 996tt!
Horst von Saurma is excellent driver and I trust him.
Do you know how many laps W.Rohrl needed to achive that 7.49min? Better not to ask...
Sure, your excellent driver achieved the same time in a car with less weight, 60 hp more and almost 100 ft/lb of torque more (that's 120 Nm for you), explain that to me, maybe he woke up on the wrong foot that day
You're in denial. Look at what Rossi has said. Von Saurma is as fast as Röhrl omn the Nring, given the same amount if laps performed. The 997TT just isn't designed with the Nring in mind anymore it would seem.
Re: 997 turbo Supertest in Sport Auto...
Quote:
Rossi said:Quote:
aah986 said:
This ring number for the TT confirms one thing: Saurma is the slowest guy on this track when compared to previous numbers by other drivers. (the official number from porsche I found was 7.49 by Rohrl). btw, a regular 996TT needs 8 minutes.
Do you know the funny thing about your statement? Normally von Saurma's ring times are mistrusted only by the Ferrari crowd, when he repeatedly fails to achieve a time what they think their beloved Italian stallion should be capable of. But obviously the Porsche followers are as sceptical when it comes to their beloved piece of Zuffenhausen machinery.
Well then, add me to the ferrari crowd
. but seriously, like I said before I am not that familiar with ring times or drivers, I just noticed the significant difference in times which has to be explained somehow. if Saurma is a driver with abilities beyond doubt, then either Rohrl's car was "fixed" , or Saurma was not feeling well that day The only thing I hope is that Porsche will be pissed enough to do something much better next time.
Forum
About Rennteam | Help | Terms of use | Privacy Policy | Support | Contact | Imprint | Archive
Powered by
Community
and
