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Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
shin said:Quote:
Rossi said:Quote:
shin said:
The F430 is to F360 what the F355 is to F348, and the F355 (the revised F348) lasted for 5 years.
Yes of course, but who says it always has to be like this?
And who says it doesn't?
The necessities of an ever developing market
.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introducti
Quote:
Just like Ferrari constantly denying a new 'small' or 'cheap' Ferrari simply because the Dino will not be small or cheap, the same twisting of words could also apply to the F430's replacement/successor situation.
I could be wrong, but I could also be right, couldn't I..?
But I think my theory could explain why there has been two versions of when the F430's 'replacement' is coming. One version always mentions end 2008/early 2009 and the other always mentions end 2009/early 2010.
I believe 2008/2009 will see the Dino (new 8-cylinder model) and 2009/2010 will see the F142.
You've made some good points here, Shin.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
shin said:Quote:
Rossi said:Quote:
shin said:
The F430 is to F360 what the F355 is to F348, and the F355 (the revised F348) lasted for 5 years.
Yes of course, but who says it always has to be like this?
And who says it doesn't?
Nick.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
How is it that the top executives of Ferrari at recent press conferences can claim unequivically that there will not be a Dino or lesser Ferrari? Are you claiming there are going to build two similar cars call them different names at about the same price point? 
Why would they do that? If the argument is that they want to sell more cars and not dilute the brand as Porsche has, I think that is a huge mistake. I thought that having Maserati within the same showroom created some problems for Ferrari.
To add another car which is close in appearance and performance is the Porsche formula but will not work. Porsche has a much wider audience at a substantially lower price point. In the US any middle class wager earner can afford and buy a Porsche. That is no the case with Ferrari.
Why would they do that? If the argument is that they want to sell more cars and not dilute the brand as Porsche has, I think that is a huge mistake. I thought that having Maserati within the same showroom created some problems for Ferrari.
To add another car which is close in appearance and performance is the Porsche formula but will not work. Porsche has a much wider audience at a substantially lower price point. In the US any middle class wager earner can afford and buy a Porsche. That is no the case with Ferrari.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Simply because the new 'Dino' will not be named Dino, and it will not be a 'lesser' Ferrari in every sense. It will not be small like the original Dino, and it will not be cheap, only a fraction cheaper than today's F430.
Ferrari would like it to be seen as the fourth model in their lineup, and since the F142 will move up a class in price and performance, they're going to need a new entry level model. Enter the new Ferrari. If it uses the 4.7L V8 from the Alfa 8C (in fact, the Alfa 8C is like the prototype of the new Ferrari), Ferrari could call it F470 and most people (not us enthusiasts) will easily see it as an F430's replacement.
The F142 will NOT have performance near the new 'Dino', in fact it would have to perform better than the upcoming F430 Pista. I'm guessing 550-600 bhp and not any less as the Gallardo will have the 550 bhp 5.2L V10 with direct injection.
And then the F142 could be priced closer to the 599 GTB for even nicer profit margin...
Another thing. While the new front-engined Ferrari V8 will likely to have a folding hardtop (based on the cancelled Maserati Spider folding hardtop CC), I believe the F142 will not be available as a berlinetta/spider but as one bodystle combining the two, probably like a targa (back to the old days) with a folding/retracting glass electrochromic roof previewed with the 575 Superamerica. I heard that Ferrari is very excited about the new bodystyle and that is also why they need a higher price for the F142 as the production cost will be higher as well.
And the Dino is coming, too much evidence already. They have even begun preparing the production line.
Ferrari would like it to be seen as the fourth model in their lineup, and since the F142 will move up a class in price and performance, they're going to need a new entry level model. Enter the new Ferrari. If it uses the 4.7L V8 from the Alfa 8C (in fact, the Alfa 8C is like the prototype of the new Ferrari), Ferrari could call it F470 and most people (not us enthusiasts) will easily see it as an F430's replacement.
The F142 will NOT have performance near the new 'Dino', in fact it would have to perform better than the upcoming F430 Pista. I'm guessing 550-600 bhp and not any less as the Gallardo will have the 550 bhp 5.2L V10 with direct injection.
And then the F142 could be priced closer to the 599 GTB for even nicer profit margin...
Another thing. While the new front-engined Ferrari V8 will likely to have a folding hardtop (based on the cancelled Maserati Spider folding hardtop CC), I believe the F142 will not be available as a berlinetta/spider but as one bodystle combining the two, probably like a targa (back to the old days) with a folding/retracting glass electrochromic roof previewed with the 575 Superamerica. I heard that Ferrari is very excited about the new bodystyle and that is also why they need a higher price for the F142 as the production cost will be higher as well.
And the Dino is coming, too much evidence already. They have even begun preparing the production line.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Obviously you have more information than I do. But some of your conclusions seem at least to me a stretch.
To move the 430 into close competition with a recently introduced model (599) in price and performance is like betting against the house. Why pillage one model when you can sell to two different buyers? Also, by moving the 430 replacement into a much higher price category it certainly will turn many prospective buyers away from Ferrari and toward the Gallardo or even Porsche (I bite my tongue).
ALSO, the 430 Spider is the hottest car on the planet and Ferrari cannot make enough of them. They account for over 60% of the 430 sales if not more. Yet, Ferrari is going "dump" the Spider?
Your scenario may be correct but if so, I really believe Ferrari will put itself out of a growing market.
To move the 430 into close competition with a recently introduced model (599) in price and performance is like betting against the house. Why pillage one model when you can sell to two different buyers? Also, by moving the 430 replacement into a much higher price category it certainly will turn many prospective buyers away from Ferrari and toward the Gallardo or even Porsche (I bite my tongue)
.ALSO, the 430 Spider is the hottest car on the planet and Ferrari cannot make enough of them. They account for over 60% of the 430 sales if not more. Yet, Ferrari is going "dump" the Spider?
Your scenario may be correct but if so, I really believe Ferrari will put itself out of a growing market.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introducti
i agree and that would be sad losing the mid engine layout for the "430 replacement" in its position in the market
Quote:
nberry said:
by moving the 430 replacement into a much higher price category it certainly will turn many prospective buyers away from Ferrari and toward the Gallardo or even Porsche (I bite my tongue)
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introducti
Quote:
shin said:
Simply because the new 'Dino' will not be named Dino, and it will not be a 'lesser' Ferrari in every sense. It will not be small like the original Dino, and it will not be cheap, only a fraction cheaper than today's F430.
Another thing. While the new front-engined Ferrari V8 will likely to have a folding hardtop (based on the cancelled Maserati Spider folding hardtop CC)
I had reached the same conclusion while contemplating why there are still the short wheelbase (2-seat spider) Maserati mules being tested around Maranello.
Although nberry makes some good points, the quote from the exemption request, "the F430 will be replaced by a newly-designed 8-cylinder model", seems vague enough to suggest it might not be the 430 successor.
Apr 11, 2007 10:51:33 AM
- rosso nuvola
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Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
nberry said:
ALSO, the 430 Spider is the hottest car on the planet and Ferrari cannot make enough of them. They account for over 60% of the 430 sales if not more. Yet, Ferrari is going "dump" the Spider?
No, I was not saying that Ferrari is going to 'dump' the Spider, they're infact going to upgrade the Spider to a single coupe/spider bodystyle and it would only increase model's the attractiveness. It's no secret that the Mercedes SLK is selling so much better than the BMW Z4 and it's mostly caused by its folding hardtop.
We have seen so many cases where one is having a hard time deciding whether they should get a coupe or a spider, but with the new front-engined V8 and the F142, Ferrari will eliminate this dillema. I know that traditionalists prefer soft-tops than folding hardtops, but the advances in technology and lightweight material will prove that a folding hardtop can be done without any compromises.
Mind that while the 'Dino' will have a folding hardtop not unlike the SLK, I believe Ferrari is going a different, newer approach for the F142. I don't think it will be a coupe/spider but more like a coupe/targa, back to the old days of the 355..
More importantly, Ferrari will be able to make its production lines much more efficient as they would only produce one model. With a separate coupe and spider model, the factory needs to constantly forecasting demand vs production and this is a cost Ferrari, I believe, is trying to eliminate.
Imagine if they have to have four new production lines for the Dino coupe, Dino spider, F142 coupe, F142 spider.
Lastly, I do not think there will be a problem with the F142 being positioned too close to the 599 GTB. Even as sporting as it is, the 599 will always be considered more of a GT, albeit a very sporting GT, than a mid-engined supercar like the F430/Gallardo/Murcielago. I know this is debatable but I'm not looking for an argument over this, please. Just saying that there will always be a market for the F142, even if it's priced closer than ever to the V12 models. In fact who ever confirms that the F142 will have a V8? It could have a V10 or even a V12, nothing is confirmed yet.
In closing, I just want to say that the F142 is the car I've been anticipating the most. Cheers
Apr 14, 2007 6:13:50 AM
- shin
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Re: We are less than 18 months from the introducti
Quote:
rosso nuvola said:
SOme people say that the Maserati "mules" are for a new spider CC , others say that the "mules" are for the new Ferrari F142 that will be also a CC.
I think it is very unlikely that they will use the new 4.7 from the 8C.
I believe it will have smaller displacement, 4.0 or 4.2L..
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
You make some good and interesting points particularly regarding increasing production which translates to more profit for Ferrari. However, as a buyer of Ferrari's for many years the scenario you set out would be very troubling to me.
A Spider with a retractable hard top will be heavy and totally compromise the mid engine configuration and performance. The styling of the car will also have to be compromised. Elimination of the glass engine bay. The retractable top will not be a big seller especially if it is going to be price close to the 599 and have less performance.
A targa approach might work with the CGT as an example. Remove and store the top either in the boot or elsewhere. Having been in the CGT many times I can tell you the removing and storing the top is a pain. If I am not mistaken initially the CGT was topless but later given a top. Admittedly, that would not prevent me from buying the car.
More importantly, to dilute the brand (by introducing a cheaper Ferrari) while at its zenith would be irresponsible and in my opinion financial insanity. Short term profit while sacrificing long term stability.
Ferrari is not Porsche and will never be. Porsche has a much wider customer base at a much lower price point. As I wrote earlier the lower middle class and the high middle class can afford Porsche's. Neither one can afford a Ferrari.
Your prediction may be accurate. However, I sincerely hope it is not.
A Spider with a retractable hard top will be heavy and totally compromise the mid engine configuration and performance. The styling of the car will also have to be compromised. Elimination of the glass engine bay. The retractable top will not be a big seller especially if it is going to be price close to the 599 and have less performance.
A targa approach might work with the CGT as an example. Remove and store the top either in the boot or elsewhere. Having been in the CGT many times I can tell you the removing and storing the top is a pain. If I am not mistaken initially the CGT was topless but later given a top. Admittedly, that would not prevent me from buying the car.
More importantly, to dilute the brand (by introducing a cheaper Ferrari) while at its zenith would be irresponsible and in my opinion financial insanity. Short term profit while sacrificing long term stability.
Ferrari is not Porsche and will never be. Porsche has a much wider customer base at a much lower price point. As I wrote earlier the lower middle class and the high middle class can afford Porsche's. Neither one can afford a Ferrari.
Your prediction may be accurate. However, I sincerely hope it is not.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
nberry said:
You make some good and interesting points particularly regarding increasing production which translates to more profit for Ferrari. However, as a buyer of Ferrari's for many years the scenario you set out would be very troubling to me.
A Spider with a retractable hard top will be heavy and totally compromise the mid engine configuration and performance. The styling of the car will also have to be compromised. Elimination of the glass engine bay. The retractable top will not be a big seller especially if it is going to be price close to the 599 and have less performance.
A targa approach might work with the CGT as an example. Remove and store the top either in the boot or elsewhere. Having been in the CGT many times I can tell you the removing and storing the top is a pain. If I am not mistaken initially the CGT was topless but later given a top. Admittedly, that would not prevent me from buying the car.
More importantly, to dilute the brand (by introducing a cheaper Ferrari) while at its zenith would be irresponsible and in my opinion financial insanity. Short term profit while sacrificing long term stability.
Ferrari is not Porsche and will never be. Porsche has a much wider customer base at a much lower price point. As I wrote earlier the lower middle class and the high middle class can afford Porsche's. Neither one can afford a Ferrari.
Your prediction may be accurate. However, I sincerely hope it is not.
No Nick, I don't think the F142 will be a conventional folding hardtop CC like the SL (the 'Dino' will, though), nor will it be a 'targa' in Carrera GT's sense.
Also, the glass bonnet will not have to be eliminated, no, not at all. Firstly, I want you to remove the concept of a folding hardtop from your mind (which I think, it's something like a Mercedes SL). Now, picture the 355 targa, with flying butresses, and a glass bonnet like the F360/430's. Only the roof is missing. Now picture the roof, all glass (photochromic like the Superamerica), retracts or slides out from the engine compartment/glass bonnet area. If you can find pictures of Fioravanti's folding roof concepts, it would help picturing the whole thing out. A preliminary concept is used on the 575 Superamerica, but I believe we would see something more modern on the F142, should it have this roof system..
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Very interesting. 
Nevertheless, I remained troubled by Ferrari going to the Porsche formula. In my opinion, the jury is still out as to whether ultimately the Porsche marque has been tainted to the point where customers turn away from it.
We should know hopefully by the end of the year.
Nevertheless, I remained troubled by Ferrari going to the Porsche formula. In my opinion, the jury is still out as to whether ultimately the Porsche marque has been tainted to the point where customers turn away from it.
We should know hopefully by the end of the year.
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
nberry said:
Very interesting.
Nevertheless, I remained troubled by Ferrari going to the Porsche formula. In my opinion, the jury is still out as to whether ultimately the Porsche marque has been tainted to the point where customers turn away from it.
We should know hopefully by the end of the year.
believe me Nick, I don't want Ferrari going the Porsche route just as much as you do, and I don't think it will. More like Aston Martin, with the arrival of the V8 Vantage. Mind that the 'Dino' will still be somewhat more costly than the Vantage..
Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
nberry said:
Very interesting.
Nevertheless, I remained troubled by Ferrari going to the Porsche formula. In my opinion, the jury is still out as to whether ultimately the Porsche marque has been tainted to the point where customers turn away from it.
We should know hopefully by the end of the year.
I don't know about the older generation, but my contemporaries, many of which are potential Porsche customers for the future, are very vocal in voicing their distaste for what Porsche is turning into. The Cayenne should only have been built as the S and the Turbo, without the bottom-dwelling, VW-powered 250-bhp brick. Same goes for the base Boxster and Cayman, as well as the 325-bhp Carrera. Just offer the S versions as the base versions and be done with it.
Then again, the Turbo still gets massive respect from everybody, so the brand is not seriously diluted yet, just in a minor identity crisis, for now.
Apr 14, 2007 5:12:33 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: We are less than 18 months from the introduction
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
nberry said:
Very interesting.
Nevertheless, I remained troubled by Ferrari going to the Porsche formula. In my opinion, the jury is still out as to whether ultimately the Porsche marque has been tainted to the point where customers turn away from it.
We should know hopefully by the end of the year.
I don't know about the older generation, but my contemporaries, many of which are potential Porsche customers for the future, are very vocal in voicing their distaste for what Porsche is turning into. The Cayenne should only have been built as the S and the Turbo, without the bottom-dwelling, VW-powered 250-bhp brick. Same goes for the base Boxster and Cayman, as well as the 325-bhp Carrera. Just offer the S versions as the base versions and be done with it.
Then again, the Turbo still gets massive respect from everybody, so the brand is not seriously diluted yet, just in a minor identity crisis, for now.
I agree with this, also.
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