Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS - Page2

Apr 13, 2007 11:15:13 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005

Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Here is the measurements...

TIP
0-100km/h: 3.6s
0-200km/h:12.2s

manual
0-100km/h: 3.8s
0-200km/h:13.0s

Article end conclusion is TIP for autobahn and manual for the track... IMHO article is pure crap...

BUT...! TIP really faster...!?

What about first test of manual 997 turbo is AMS then?!

Look at those numbers...(manual-licence S-GO501 AMS 13/2006)

0-100km/h: 3.7s
0-200km/h:12.3s

Interesting, isn't it

...and few issues later AMS measured 997 turbo manual again(Slate Grey S-GO518) in high speed test at VW test track.

Look at those numbers...

0-100km/h: 3.7s
0-200km/h:12.3s
0-250km/h:20.7s
0-300km/h:40.7s

Well...

I know also numbers about TIP car in 0-250 and 0-300 but, I will not post them here...

Just a clue-slower then manual...

Comments and opinions are welcome!

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Apr 13, 2007 11:17:26 AM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Oh yeah...

I forget little clue about track times(Klein Kurs Hockenheim)... Manual with LSD is around 1s faster then TIP with same tires(Michelin Cups)...

Nordschleife...? Well, do the math...

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Apr 13, 2007 11:50:18 AM

andrea: Rennteam Master; Loc: Italy, Pordenone , Italy; Posts: 3569, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 24, 2003; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

thanks!!

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Apr 13, 2007 12:30:28 PM

SciFrog: Rennteam VIP; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 9870, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2005; Reply to: andrea

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Porsche magic influencing AMS

Nick where are you?

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Apr 13, 2007 12:51:33 PM

LoranTw: Senior; Loc: Canada; Posts: 569, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 14, 2006; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

He's busy optioning the order for his new 997tt

whilst eating a big feed of Canadian fish

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Apr 13, 2007 2:36:01 PM

eclou: Veteran; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 1182, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 4, 2006; Reply to: LoranTw

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Please please please the Nordschleife numbers!

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Apr 14, 2007 4:08:27 AM

tortesq1: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island, NY; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Bottom line is that for a daily driver the tip gets around quite nicely and can hold its own.

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Apr 14, 2007 8:03:44 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Article end conclusion is TIP for autobahn and manual for the track... IMHO article is pure crap...

I agree on your sentiments regarding the AMS article...

From my perspective, this recent article highlights (again) a very unfortunate fact:

Porsche has not a single convincing product in the >450hp class

Why? Simple answer: Even if you accept that competing products like F430, Gallardo, Z06 are as fast (or faster...) than the 997TT (acceleration and/or track performance) you still have another obstacle to surmount before being a happy owner of a 997TT.

You can either buy a Tip version which might be a tad faster up to a certain speed level than Manual - voiding lots of driving pleasure. Or you can buy a Manual version which is slower than the boring Tip version.

Sorry Porsche, not with me. This is the crappiest product strategy I could imagine.

BTW: Still no news on PK, GT2 etc. Zuffenhausen is at sleep, I guess

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Apr 14, 2007 8:08:59 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Here is the measurements...

TIP
0-100km/h: 3.6s
0-200km/h:12.2s

manual
0-100km/h: 3.8s
0-200km/h:13.0s

Article end conclusion is TIP for autobahn and manual for the track... IMHO article is pure crap...

BUT...! TIP really faster...!?

What about first test of manual 997 turbo is AMS then?!

Look at those numbers...(manual-licence S-GO501 AMS 13/2006)

0-100km/h: 3.7s
0-200km/h:12.3s

Interesting, isn't it

...and few issues later AMS measured 997 turbo manual again(Slate Grey S-GO518) in high speed test at VW test track.

Look at those numbers...

0-100km/h: 3.7s
0-200km/h:12.3s
0-250km/h:20.7s
0-300km/h:40.7s

Well...

I know also numbers about TIP car in 0-250 and 0-300 but, I will not post them here...
Just a clue-slower then manual...

Comments and opinions are welcome!

BTW, Kreso: also agree 100% that this "Tip is soooo fast" story has been put up by the marketing department of Porsche alone. Also, I agree that chances are high that the most recent test results were staged by Porsche.

My personal expectation would be that Tip is faster by .1-.4s up to 200kph. Up to 300kph Tip might lose a second or so (just guessing...)

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Apr 14, 2007 8:10:31 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Oh yeah...

I forget little clue about track times(Klein Kurs Hockenheim)... Manual with LSD is around 1s faster then TIP with same tires(Michelin Cups)...

Nordschleife...? Well, do the math...

1s is quite a lot

P.S.: That would imply that at least the 997TT Manual is as fast as the old 996TT (with comparable tires) on HHR

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Apr 14, 2007 2:12:41 PM

tortesq1: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island, NY; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2006; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

MKSGR,

How often do you track your turbo ? I ask only because ALL owners I know in the LI/NY area do NOT track their cars. The races are won and lost on the Long Island Expressway, Seaford- Oyster Bay Expressway, Jericho Turnpike, etc. I know you don't know these roads (probably not) but it seems to me that almost all of the races with the big 4 (997TT,F430,Gallardo,ZO6) that I have seen come down to one thing alone - driver skill. Your one second per lap difference may be huge on a track (it IS huge on a real track in a real race), BUT in the real world, on MY streets, your one second difference is, with all due respect, meaningless. IMHO, whether a car is easy to drive fast is MUCH more important than a .5 second difference in 0-60, 0-100, 0-200. Again, I don't diagree with your analysis, only the end result. For example, one blown shift, no one sloppy shift and a slower Gallardo will spank a Z06. The tip 997TT IS less engaging/fun than a 6 speed, but when you really want to drop the hammer, me with less skill than my adversary, has a shot to win....why.....the tip launches fairly easily and more importantly maintains boost b/w shifts. Anyway, if I was rich (and I'm not) I would have 5 cars - all of the big 4 and tt in both tip and stick. One can dream. Maybe if I married rich/won the lottery I'd have a Veyron to boot.

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Apr 14, 2007 4:06:49 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

I find it very interesting how some people who post on this and other boards, who clearly have not driven a Tip 997TT long enough to know how to drive with this transmission, post opinions about the Tip as if they were experts???

Again, I had a 709 hp, 718 ft-lbs of torque 996/TT

that was a MANUAL. It was faster than my 610 hp 997TT Tip is ... no questions asked. And yes, I tracked my 996TT and in fact I even let the driver who holds the track record track my 996TT. It was a beast and in the right hands almost unbeatable!

Bottom line is when ones learns to drive the Tip, it is very fast. IMHO, only someone with "far above average" driving skills

will be able to shift a manual 'consistently' enough to stay up with the Tip,

I loved my manual 996TT and I love my 997TT Tip. I am not 'let down, disappointed or bored' by any stretch of the imagination going from such a fast manual to my Tip, period! How could anyone posibbly argue that you won't get better at braking and picking your lines when you no longer have to worry about heel/toe and shifting to match RPM to speed to gear.

If it were not so, then pray tell, why do the 'PROS' no longer use manual transmissions?

I wonder if the driver who drove the 997TT Tip one second slower than the manual around the Hockenheim would describe the Tip as MKSGR did as "boring Tip version"?

IMHO, there is now way one laps the Hockenheim in those kind of times in a 'boring' car!

RC appears to be one of the better drivers who USED to frequent this board (yes I know he started and runs the board!) My money says that few 'if any' people arguing the merits of manual over Tip could beat RC on the road or track when he is driving his 'boring' Tip.

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Apr 14, 2007 4:23:24 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: SciFrog

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

There is a vast difference between Tiptronic and F1 type transmission. I know I own both. If the Tip can stay with manual imagine what a F1 can do.

99% of the drivers in this forum will be faster on a track or otherwise with a F1 tranny. The other one percentage just do not know how to use a F1.

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Apr 14, 2007 4:30:09 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Nick,

I agree that there is a big difference between a F1 and a Tiprronic transmission. However, I would also point out that there is a big difference between the 2007 997TT tiptronic transmission and all other (older) tiptronic transmissions!

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Apr 14, 2007 4:37:02 PM

turbo'S': Junior; Loc: Scotland; Posts: 132, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 12, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

I have driven both Tip and manual and F1 gearboxed Ferrari and Aston Martin and prefer the Tip over them all.

I found the gearing for smaller roads/twistys of the manual 997TT was such (IMO) that you were stirring the box constantly which took your concentration off the boil(and the road ahead)that it slowed down rapid progress.
The F1 box I had in my 575 Maranello was the harshest thing ever even when feathering the throttle, the Aston Vanquish S was much smoother but regularily got caught out on down shifts between gears etc.Admittedley these cars are more GT than Sports car but I am comparing the gearboxes.

Tip every time for me until DSG comes out and then I will change only if it is better.

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Apr 14, 2007 4:40:56 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: turbo'S'

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Finally, we get someone talking from experience! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

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Apr 14, 2007 4:55:26 PM

tortesq1: Co-Pilot; Loc: Long Island, NY; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 1, 2006; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Tulsa Turbo,

Todd at EVO PMed me a few days ago and said they have found a solution for the step down problem. I'm waiting to hear back from him as to what specifically the solution is. He also told me that the new package "690R" should work in the tip as well. As soon as I hear I'll put it on the board. If you hear first please do the same. Seems like we "tipsters" gotta stick together.

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Apr 14, 2007 5:24:31 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Tulsa,

I did not want to write a response to your post but...

Here is MY opinion:
-you are true automatic gearbox fan, no matter who is faster TIP or manual
-you own TIP and for me that is all the things that I need to know

BTW, pros like TIP more... What pros? The one from USA you mean?
OK. What about W.Rohrl-his preference is manual in 997 turbo. Of course, he is without any knowledge I guess...

Hockenheim difference is measured by true professional, not by average driver... And according to this pro TIP version is simply awsome for city and autobahn driving, but for Nordschleife or Hockenheim it is crap(his words, not mine)... Manual with LSD offers much more control and better traction in curves...

My 997 turbo will be manual with LSD. Your is TIP.
So, what? 997 turbo is the only true sportscar in the world where you can choose type of connection between man and the machine! You like Borg style collective mind, me not(I like to control every gearchage by myself!).

My point is the difference between speed of both versions is very small indeed... It will depend more on driver(experience etc.) then on gearbox IMHO.
Of course, you may(or will) disagree here big time...

All in all 997 turbo is excellent car-manual or TIP. That is my HUMBLE opinion.

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Apr 14, 2007 6:55:10 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: tortesq1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
tortesq1 said:
MKSGR,

How often do you track your turbo ? I ask only because ALL owners I know in the LI/NY area do NOT track their cars. The races are won and lost on the Long Island Expressway, Seaford- Oyster Bay Expressway, Jericho Turnpike, etc. I know you don't know these roads (probably not) but it seems to me that almost all of the races with the big 4 (997TT,F430,Gallardo,ZO6) that I have seen come down to one thing alone - driver skill. Your one second per lap difference may be huge on a track (it IS huge on a real track in a real race), BUT in the real world, on MY streets, your one second difference is, with all due respect, meaningless. IMHO, whether a car is easy to drive fast is MUCH more important than a .5 second difference in 0-60, 0-100, 0-200. Again, I don't diagree with your analysis, only the end result. For example, one blown shift, no one sloppy shift and a slower Gallardo will spank a Z06. The tip 997TT IS less engaging/fun than a 6 speed, but when you really want to drop the hammer, me with less skill than my adversary, has a shot to win....why.....the tip launches fairly easily and more importantly maintains boost b/w shifts. Anyway, if I was rich (and I'm not) I would have 5 cars - all of the big 4 and tt in both tip and stick. One can dream. Maybe if I married rich/won the lottery I'd have a Veyron to boot.

I agree that the discussed performance differences are pretty meaningless in real life.

My point is that Porsche has failed in developing an appropriate product, a product (again) located at the top position in the performance sports car segment.

The 993TT had this top position. The 996TT had it. The 997TT has lost it.

That is very frustrating to me

Hopefully, Porsche will suffer from slower sales of their model range. That might make them change their minds to the better. Only performance matters

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Apr 14, 2007 6:58:42 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
I wonder if the driver who drove the 997TT Tip one second slower than the manual around the Hockenheim would describe the Tip as MKSGR did as "boring Tip version"?

I am positive he would describe it as "boring" compared to the Manual

And I am also positive that I chose my words with intent

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Apr 14, 2007 7:00:45 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Finally, we get someone talking from experience! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Most of the talking on this board is based on experience.

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Apr 14, 2007 7:15:34 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Finally, we get someone talking from experience! Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Markus speaks from experience. Hundreds of thousands of kilometres on the Autobahn, many among them high-speed driving. I'd say the man knows what he is saying.

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Apr 14, 2007 7:22:19 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Hmm?

Experience driving a 997TT Tip?

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Apr 14, 2007 7:24:46 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Again, the experience I am talking about is experience driving a 997TT Tip? I would be shocked if most the talking on this board is from experienced 997TT Tip drivers!

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Apr 14, 2007 7:25:44 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: TulsaTurbo

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Hmm? Experience driving a 997TT Tip?

I believe he tested both, as did mumbasic, who found it utterly disappointing and thus ordered the manual.

As for Markus, the poor soul, he is now relegated to driving a Ferrari

.

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Apr 14, 2007 7:31:03 PM

KresoF1: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Croatia , Croatia; Posts: 7856, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 3, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Hmm? Experience driving a 997TT Tip?

I believe he tested both, as did mumbasic, who found it utterly disappointing and thus ordered the manual.

As for Markus, the poor soul, he is now relegated to driving a Ferrari .

...and you forgot Rami, Atomic80(Jason) and some other members who had a chance to drive both versions and ended with manual(with optional LSD).

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Apr 14, 2007 7:35:25 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
KresoF1 said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Hmm? Experience driving a 997TT Tip?

I believe he tested both, as did mumbasic, who found it utterly disappointing and thus ordered the manual.

As for Markus, the poor soul, he is now relegated to driving a Ferrari .

...and you forgot Rami, Atomic80(Jason) and some other members who had a chance to drive both versions and ended with manual(with optional LSD).

Need I add more?

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Apr 14, 2007 7:39:55 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
TulsaTurbo said:
Hmm? Experience driving a 997TT Tip?

As for Markus, the poor soul, he is now relegated to driving a Ferrari .

That you put very nicely

P.S.: I still like Porsche very much...

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Apr 14, 2007 7:46:18 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: KresoF1

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

KresoF1, MKSGR, Crash,

I feel like I am being painted into a corner of someone who is a pure Tip fan and not a manual transmission fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. If one will reread my past posts I consistently say 'I loved my 996TT manual!"

I enjoy the post from all three of you and have a commanding respect for your opinions.

My primary goal in my posts is to make sure that all the facts are on the table regarding the Tip. Again, in my previous posts, I was clear that I really disliked my Tip when I first got it. It took me a while, but once I learned to drive the car such that it was constantly in the meaty part of the powerban, I learned to like it a lot.

I like manual so much it was a very tough decision to get the Tip. I wouldn't hesitate one second to by a manual with LSD. They are great cars, every bit as good as mine with a Tip. I do not proclaim that one is better then the other. I do claim that both are great cars.

KresoF!: It was not my intent to imply that 'PROS' like Tip more. I was trying to say that the 'PROS' have moved away from manual transmission in many if not most race cars because manuals cannot be shifted (even by the PROS) as consistently perfect as computer can shift a car. My point was even a PRO would have a hard time not losing ground to a Tip during shifting. Finally, your last point is exactly the point I was truing to make. The performance of both cars is so close that the drivers will ultimately determine the winner in a heads-up battle! On this we whole-heartedly agree!

Cheers to all three of you!

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Apr 14, 2007 7:52:41 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

"...had a chance to drive both versions" and having enough experience to know how to drive the Tip well enough to maximize its potential are two entirely different things.

This is the point I have tried (with little to no success!) to make over and over again!

RC also tried to make this point. Do you not think RC knows what he is talking about?

Does his notable experience and opinion not mean anything?

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