Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: What Does Our Black Box Do? - Page1

Apr 8, 2007 7:50:06 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004

What Does Our Black Box Do?

Was driving "frisky" and my passenger asked about the data recorder. I completely forgot about the black box recording all that data soooooo handy for the cops to use after a major accident.

What does it do again?

Have they been enhanced for our 2006 and beyond cars?

Kind of a queasy thought huh? I don't feel so good... .

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Apr 9, 2007 1:25:01 PM

jcs: Pilot; Loc: nj; Posts: 308, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

I'm not sure what it all does, but it DEFINITELY records all engine over revvs .

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Apr 9, 2007 3:26:14 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: jcs

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Last I heard, if there's an serious accident the cops run in and grab the black box from under the seat. There is/was some controversy over who owns the data and who can use it (or not) in court: the individual or the state.

The thing supposedly has at least pertinent speed and deceleration info on it.

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Apr 9, 2007 3:43:10 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

There have been other discussions about the data belonging to the car owner and not the courts. Clearly, once the courts begin to use the data against automobile owners the black boxes will magically have a memory loss. (At least mine will).

dan

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Apr 9, 2007 4:31:50 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Quote:
Dan L said:
There have been other discussions about the data belonging to the car owner and not the courts. Clearly, once the courts begin to use the data against automobile owners the black boxes will magically have a memory loss. (At least mine will).

dan

LOL. Oh yeah! There would be a nice aftermarket for a kill switch. Better: have an "autofry" feature if it's not disarmed twenty seconds after impact.

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Apr 9, 2007 4:48:53 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Have there been any documented cases of this information being used by either law enforcement or for legal action not involving Porsche itself (e.g. where they decline a warrenty claim)? After all, the government has had average speed data for years for any toll highway which uses either an old punch card system or the newer RFID systems, and I'm not aware that they've ever used it to issue speeding tickets.

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Apr 9, 2007 6:25:51 PM

MBW_UK: Junior; Loc: Surrey, UK; Posts: 134, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

One thing my OPC said to be aware of was that the state of PSM (on/off ) is recorded and could be retrieved in the case of an accident.

I couldn't comment on legal side of data ownership/ contributary negligence etc. arising from this, but the one conclusion I do draw from this is that the state of any manual override is probably recorded too, e.g. sports mode, spoiler etc.

As most things are now electronic I wouldn't bet against it being possible to log a whole range of things, throttle position, braking etc.

It would be interesting to know how/ where it's stored, and things like capacity, memory type how often the data is overwritten?

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Apr 9, 2007 7:36:46 PM

Jim48: Senior; Loc: Virginia, USA; Posts: 639, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2005; Reply to: MBW_UK

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Quote:
MBW_UK said:
One thing my OPC said to be aware of was that the state of PSM (on/off ) is recorded and could be retrieved in the case of an accident.

I couldn't comment on legal side of data ownership/ contributary negligence etc. arising from this, but the one conclusion I do draw from this is that the state of any manual override is probably recorded too, e.g. sports mode, spoiler etc.

As most things are now electronic I wouldn't bet against it being possible to log a whole range of things, throttle position, braking etc.

It would be interesting to know how/ where it's stored, and things like capacity, memory type how often the data is overwritten?

It sounds similar to the flight data recorders they have on commercial aircraft. I bet it stores, at most, the last 15 - 30 minutes of data at most, and that depends upon how much data is stored and how much memory there is.

Big Brother is tightening his grip on us all!!!!

Jim

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Apr 10, 2007 12:03:36 AM

jamesaug: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 414, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2005; Reply to: Jim48

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Sounds like as porsche owners (of both the box and the information it creates) we have a right to know both what the box does and to view and erase the data at out leisure.

Furthermore, since when has turning off traction control been a crime? My other car doesn't even have it?!

Fight the power!!

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Apr 10, 2007 1:17:17 AM

SurferDude: Newbie; Loc: Virginia; Posts: 40, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: jamesaug

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

At the risk of being totally wrong here, I believe I read somewhere that, in most auto insurance policies,the policyholder (read "you") agrees to make the contents of the box available to the insurer.

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Apr 10, 2007 4:35:48 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: SurferDude

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Quote:
SurferDude said:
the policyholder (read "you") agrees to make the contents of the box available to the insurer.

Actually, that sounds about right.

Information is power and they want to own every advantage they can get their hands on.

Why wouldn't they want to "trick" us into signing it over; or..., how could any red-blooded self-serving legislator resist sliping that one past us... .

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Apr 10, 2007 7:48:22 AM

U Boat Commander: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles, CA; Posts: 1250, Gallery; Registered on: May 8, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: What Does Our Black Box Do?

Here is an actual case where the EDR (Event Data Recorder) data resulted in a conviction:

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061209/NEWS/612090433/1134

Here's a link to a thread on 6Speed on which this issue was throughly discussed, including by your truly.

http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65173

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Apr 10, 2007 10:11:30 AM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: There is a bill pending

that specifically states the data belongs to the driver. The National Motorists Association recommends all drivers contact their represenatives to urge them to support HR 1015. That should include everyone in the U.S. on this board. The particulars:

Dear NMA supporter,

The National Motorists Association is working hard to protect motorists against the misuse of "black box" data. Whether you realize it or not, most new cars come equipped with these devices that record information just prior to accidents. This information has then been used to prosecute drivers, further lawsuits, and deny insurance claims.

Thanks to the NMA's efforts in Washington D.C., Congressman Michael Capuano has introduced HR 1015, a bill that addresses many of the concerns we have regarding the potential abuse of black boxes. You can read more about this bill at http://www.motorists.org/issues/edrs/bill/summary.html.

For this bill to succeed, we need your help. We ask that you contact your legislators and ask them to support this measure. You can find out who your representatives are at http://www.house.gov/. A sample letter that you can use for inspiration is available at http://www.motorists.org/issues/edrs/bill/CongressionalLetter.doc. You can also find additional talking points about this issue at http://www.motorists.org/issues/edrs/bill/points.html.

If possible, we encourage you to also contact the members of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Commerce, Trade, and Consumer Protections, which is where the bill currently is. Subcommittee members' names and contact information are available at http://energycommerce.house.gov/Subcommittees/ctcp.shtml.

Thanks so much for your help. Together, we can protect your privacy rights against this growing threat.

Regards,

Aaron Quinn
Communications Director

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Apr 10, 2007 2:56:54 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa

Re: There is a bill pending

At the risk sounding like I support Big Brother, I'm not sure that I think of the data in the BB as different than any other data evidence that might be available to help find the truth.

If the data is in fact 'owned' by the owner of the car (not the driver, as Jim_in_Iowas suggests), then courts would still have a right to subpeona it. After all, they can subpeona your DNA already, as well as your fingerprints, search your house, etc. And you can agree in a contract to provide it to a private party such as an insurance provider under certain circumstances, just as you agree to provide a lender with a credit report, copy of your tax returns, etc.

After all, if you're not doing something wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you are doing something wrong, like driving 100 mph after a night of drinking at 3.30am, then I want the full force of the law and all the available evidence to throw your a$$ in prison when you kill someone.

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Apr 10, 2007 4:47:01 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: There is a bill pending

Quote:
Scotty A said:

After all, if you're not doing something wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.

BTW, drive a Porsche and you're always doing something wrong; it sucks.

I should get about three moving violations everytime I drive my perf cars. Why? because though I think I drive "safely," because of the car's power I'm able use the passing lanes alot. If a cop were to see me I'm SURE he'd nail me for some "wreckless" driving cr*p because other drivers around here are brain dead by comparison in their habits formed by 150hp cars.

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Apr 10, 2007 5:14:32 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: There is a bill pending

First I was a long haired kid, so I was always doing something wrong.

Then I got married and was always doing something wrong.

Now I have a Porsche and I'm always doing something wrong.

If I worried too much about it, I would be crazy by now.

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Apr 10, 2007 5:41:06 PM

MBW_UK: Junior; Loc: Surrey, UK; Posts: 134, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: There is a bill pending

Quote:
Scotty A said:
First I was a long haired kid, so I was always doing something wrong.

Then I got married and was always doing something wrong.

Now I have a Porsche and I'm always doing something wrong.

Yep, there's no telling some people.

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Apr 11, 2007 12:02:19 AM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: There is a bill pending

I'm not a lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, but I believe there's a significant difference between a subpoena and a court order. I'm thinking if this law existed, and they issued a subpoena, you wouldn't have to give the data up. A court order trumps everything, and you would have to give it up. Getting the former is easy, the latter very hard. Without something like HR 1015, you're SOL in any event, like the guy in FLA.

That's an extreme example, the FL case. How about in 2015 being pulled over. No, I wasn't speeding. The PD plugs their gizmo into, heck, scans it remotely, and the car says, oh yes he was. Or the extention of that, just like an emissions scan, once a year you have to go in to the insurance office to get the car scanned to see how you've been driving (of course it wouldn't take into account tailgating, etc.) and there go your rates for the faster than officially allowed but otherwise safe driver, which I think includes many Porsche folks.

That's why who owns the data is important in that bill, not so much now, but later. If there's a way for 3rd parties to make money off it, and it's clear to me there will be, then owning your own data will be essential, hence that bill. Who needs speed enforcement, photo radar, and red light cameras when they can get the car to do the work for them? Britain seems to be at the forefront of automated revenue capture. I'd think if politicians can pass congestion fees, they'd be ecstatic at having the car do the data collection on infractions.

Somewhere in the first hour of MINORITY REPORT, it occurred to me that rather than being a cautionary tale, there were authorities somewhere salavating at the idea of being able to do pre-crime enforcement.

Jim

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Apr 11, 2007 12:09:56 AM

s4to911: Newbie; Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA; Posts: 36, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: There is a bill pending

Note that in the story lined by a previous poster and to which you refer, the driver (wearing a seat belt) survived without much injury, where the passenger (not wearing a seat belt) was ejected from the car and died.

Black box or not, don't you think the passenger had some assumption of the risk here? Sure, nobody should be driving in excess of 100 mph at 3:30 AM in the morning (how many of us here have, BTW), but the guy should be wearing a seat belt if he's in a car going that speed.

The guy should hire himself another lawyer. I can't believe he didn't try to fight the vehicular homicide charges.

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Apr 11, 2007 12:11:51 AM

s4to911: Newbie; Loc: Pittsburgh, PA, USA; Posts: 36, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 1, 2005; Reply to: Scotty A

Re: There is a bill pending

Quote:
Scotty A said:
At the risk sounding like I support Big Brother, I'm not sure that I think of the data in the BB as different than any other data evidence that might be available to help find the truth.

If the data is in fact 'owned' by the owner of the car (not the driver, as Jim_in_Iowas suggests), then courts would still have a right to subpeona it. After all, they can subpeona your DNA already, as well as your fingerprints, search your house, etc. And you can agree in a contract to provide it to a private party such as an insurance provider under certain circumstances, just as you agree to provide a lender with a credit report, copy of your tax returns, etc.

After all, if you're not doing something wrong, then you have nothing to worry about.

If you are doing something wrong, like driving 100 mph after a night of drinking at 3.30am, then I want the full force of the law and all the available evidence to throw your a$$ in prison when you kill someone.

Note that in the story lined by a previous poster and to which you refer, the driver (wearing a seat belt) survived without much injury, where the passenger (not wearing a seat belt) was ejected from the car and died.

Black box or not, don't you think the passenger had some assumption of the risk here? Sure, nobody should be driving in excess of 100 mph at 3:30 AM in the morning (how many of us here have, BTW), but the guy should be wearing a seat belt if he's in a car going that speed.

The guy should hire himself another lawyer. I can't believe he didn't try to fight the vehicular homicide charges.

(Sorry about the previous post--I didn't quote first)

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Apr 11, 2007 12:18:15 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa

Re: There is a bill pending

Though this a tough call for me, I tend to agree with you. However I am not sure a Congressional bill will prevent acquring the information by 3rd parties. Is it in the interest of the public to know who is at fault in an accident, if someone was speeding or there was a mechanical failure which trumps individual privacy? Should we require a breath test before a car can be started in the interest of public safety?

Like I said tough questions.

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Apr 11, 2007 10:28:05 AM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: s4to911

Re: Crashes and seatbelts

I always thought it was interesting in the most famous accident of recent years, the Diana crash in Paris, that the only guy who lived had his belt on, everyone else in the car who didn't, died. There was lots of anger over the paparazzi, a few fingers pointed at Mercedes safety, and concerns directed at the driver's alcohol level. It seemed pretty straighforward to me, no belts equal a much higher risk of serious injury or death. Auto safety isn't planned primarily around occupants flying about the cabin, the expectation is they'll be belted in.

Personal responsibility seems to be a disappearing realilty, especially in the U.S. There is lots of interest in passive safety systems, but where the biggest improvement can be made, driver training, well, we just couldn't have that, drivers being responsible for what they're doing. Every time I'm in expressway traffic, I always marvel at commuters in a NASCAR style pack, 8 feet off each other's bumpers at 60 MPH. Even an F1 car and driver can't stop with that short an interval, duh.

Jim

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Apr 11, 2007 7:39:29 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: s4to911

Re: There is a bill pending

s4to911:

Sure, the dead guy should be (in my view) guilty. We are all responsible for our own safety when we get in a car, and putting on a seatbelt is a big part of that. Only when and if we were reasonably careful and did whatever was possible to protect ourselves should society allow us to claim from another party to recoop any damages.

Note, however, my cautionary tail from above: of all the parties to the case, the U-Haul company had perhaps the least culpability but got virtually all the penalty. The Dude got virtually no financial penalty, although he's suffering in other ways, but in my mind he deserves all the blame: had he been driving with even a modicum of caution, the accident wouldn't have ever happened, and he was the last actor with a choice.

Unfortunately the system doesn't enforce any notion of strict accountability. Rather, it enforces a notion that "someone has to pay for my problem".

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Apr 11, 2007 10:14:41 PM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: There is a bill pending

Quote:
nberry said:
Though this a tough call for me, I tend to agree with you. However I am not sure a Congressional bill will prevent acquring the information by 3rd parties. Is it in the interest of the public to know who is at fault in an accident, if someone was speeding or there was a mechanical failure which trumps individual privacy? Should we require a breath test before a car can be started in the interest of public safety?

Like I said tough questions.

It may not concretely prevent it, but without it, what chance does a driver stand? The FL case is extreme, the guy was clearly at fault. That still doesn't mean the state is entitled to the data logged in his machine. They didn't need it. Would they really need it if sheet metal is bent? I think crash analysis is good enough to figure out what happened.

My concern is more with collection of the data when there is no damage. Minnesota, for example, has an automatic license suspension if one exceeds 100 MPH. So should the state be able to plug in and go, hey, here he went over 100, boom, done, no license, even when there's no harm done? If he hit something or someone, there's going to be other evidence.

If third parties can make a profit with that data (insurance premiums, traffic fines, etc.), then I believe we need something that says the car owner owns the data.

Jim

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Apr 12, 2007 3:08:06 PM

HWJunkie: Junior; Loc: Hollywood, CA; Posts: 87, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2007; Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa

Re: There is a bill pending

When I first got my (now sold) Mercedes back in 2002, after only a 1000 miles or so, the "see dealer" message came up, so I took it in and they hooked it up to the computer and told me "it shows you had (I don't remember exactly what they told me" on such and such a date".... So it seemed that everhting that went on with the car was being recorded and they could "replay" it at any time????

I'm not sure if I have heard a difinitive answer, does Porsche have this and is it in the 997? And if they do, can they plug into the computer and see if I over revved or something and at what time and mileage it happened?

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Apr 13, 2007 11:40:55 PM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: HWJunkie

Re: There is a bill pending

The next time you're to the dealer for service, in ask for a data printout. It'll be ~7 pages, and contain lots of data on how many ignitions it had, the number and type of overrevs, all sorts of things. At least on the 9x6 family, no speeds are included. If you've overreved it, they'll know when and how many times.

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