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Mar 27, 2007 7:32:11 PM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: Le Chef
Re: Natural Leather
Interesting, I checked the US Ordering Guide too after reading your post.
In my view, it's just loosely worded (probably because it's been written by PCNA rather than PAG itself).
AFAIK terracotta and cocoa are 'special order colours' not 'special quality' leathers like natural brown and dark grey are.
I think the prices also reflect this:
Standard full leather: US$3365
Natural brown or dark grey: US$4875
Special colour terracotta/cocoa: US$3675
In my view, it's just loosely worded (probably because it's been written by PCNA rather than PAG itself).
AFAIK terracotta and cocoa are 'special order colours' not 'special quality' leathers like natural brown and dark grey are.
I think the prices also reflect this:
Standard full leather: US$3365
Natural brown or dark grey: US$4875
Special colour terracotta/cocoa: US$3675
Mar 28, 2007 12:35:53 AM
- cannga
- Expert
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- Loc: Los Angeles's "twisties" :-) , United States
- Posts: 1940, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 6, 2005
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Natural Leather
I thought too that only natural leather brown and NL grey exist, but am about 99% sure I have seen cars with both "NL terracota" and "NL cocoa" at dealers in Los Angeles. (The NL terracota was at Auto Gallery I believe.) I did not ask how they were ordered though (code, etc.).
BTW, "easy_rider," I've come across a few of your old posts during various searches on options for my upcoming TT. They have been accurate and helpful.Thank you.
BTW, "easy_rider," I've come across a few of your old posts during various searches on options for my upcoming TT. They have been accurate and helpful.Thank you.
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Interesting, I checked the US Ordering Guide too after reading your post.
In my view, it's just loosely worded (probably because it's been written by PCNA rather than PAG itself).
AFAIK terracotta and cocoa are 'special order colours' not 'special quality' leathers like natural brown and dark grey are.
I think the prices also reflect this:
Standard full leather: US$3365
Natural brown or dark grey: US$4875
Special colour terracotta/cocoa: US$3675
Mar 28, 2007 2:23:22 AM
- Rossi
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: Home , Germany
- Posts: 12680, Gallery
- Registered on: Apr 11, 2002
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Natural Leather
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
AFAIK terracotta and cocoa are 'special order colours' not 'special quality' leathers like natural brown and dark grey are.
I think the prices also reflect this:
Standard full leather: US$3365
Natural brown or dark grey: US$4875
Special colour terracotta/cocoa: US$3675
That's right, cocoa/terrarcotta are the special colours, natural brown (=light brown) and dark grey are so called natural leather.
Anybody can explain the difference in feel at "natural" leather versus "unnatural"
leather? 
Re: Except...
Quote:
Le Chef said:
In the official order guide all four colors are denoted as "Natural". Can some one explain the $1000 difference between "Natural Terracotta" and "Natural Brown"?
MTIA
It must have something to do with the quality of the leather. If I remember correctly the dearer natural leather is treated with less chemical substances, which results to a less artifical look and feel, but also makes it more delicate to handle.
But don't nail me down to that!
Re: Natural Leather
What little I know of this (i.e. Please don't hold me to this explanation ): Natural leather is the top quality leather that is selected because it has no scar/blemish/wrinkles from the cow's tummy 
/etc. I believe the term is "aniline leather," i.e. the leather is dyed for color but not pigmented.
The lower quality leather is pigmented to hide the blemishes, and I think the grain is embossed onto the leather surface to hide the defects. It is therefore not considered "natural."
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
): Natural leather is the top quality leather that is selected because it has no scar/blemish/wrinkles from the cow's tummy /etc. I believe the term is "aniline leather," i.e. the leather is dyed for color but not pigmented.The lower quality leather is pigmented to hide the blemishes, and I think the grain is embossed onto the leather surface to hide the defects. It is therefore not considered "natural."
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
Quote:
Rossi said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
AFAIK terracotta and cocoa are 'special order colours' not 'special quality' leathers like natural brown and dark grey are.
I think the prices also reflect this:
Standard full leather: US$3365
Natural brown or dark grey: US$4875
Special colour terracotta/cocoa: US$3675
That's right, cocoa/terrarcotta are the special colours, natural brown (=light brown) and dark grey are so called natural leather.
Anybody can explain the difference in feel at "natural" leather versus "unnatural"
Re: Except...
Quote:
Le Chef said:
In the official order guide all four colors are denoted as "Natural". Can some one explain the $1000 difference between "Natural Terracotta" and "Natural Brown"?
MTIA
The difference is: "They can get it".
Porsche has a habit of changing which of their colors are upcharges from year to year.
Re: Except...
I did some research on this some time back when I ordered my natural brown interior. The natural leathers are sourced from the top 5-10% of the leather out there available for interiors. That's top of the quality pile. They are aniline dyed (vat) and the noteworthy part is thay they are not 'embellished' in any way. The vast majority of the leathers are treated to a series of processes to make them look better than they are. They are frequently sanded, embossed, and even painted to get the look they're are shooting for. One of the easiest tests is the smell test. Go find a coupe with natural leather,--and open the door and stick your head in. Then do that with a cocoa. Big difference. Now do the tactile test. Feel the two leathers. The natural feels more like a high quality Coach purse or handbag. The other really does give away that its been doctored. Frankly, I have been surprised at the durability of the natural. I thought it might be more susceptible to damage. It's not.
Dan
Dan
Re: Except...
Your explanation highlights the difference between the first two and all the other standard leathers, but are Terracota and Cocoa "natural" as you define them, or only by Porsche's definition? It would be interesting to hear Porsche's definition.
It's all just a little too easy to be confused...
It's all just a little too easy to be confused...
Mar 29, 2007 12:19:26 AM
- Stan-the-man
- Newbie
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- Loc: ca, usa
- Posts: 3, Gallery
- Registered on: Aug 7, 2006
- Reply to: Le Chef
Re: Except...
I think the leather terms are "full grain" for uncorrected surface and "top grain" for corrected surface.
The smell difference also maybe contributed by tanning (chrome tanned or veg(oak) tanned).
I have terracotta leather and it looks like semi-aniline dyed to me (i.e. aniline dyed and protective(pigment) coated surface).
The smell difference also maybe contributed by tanning (chrome tanned or veg(oak) tanned).
I have terracotta leather and it looks like semi-aniline dyed to me (i.e. aniline dyed and protective(pigment) coated surface).
Re: Except...
Cocoa and Terracotta have never been considered as "natural leather" by Porsche Germany. If you read "Natural Leather Cocoa" somewhere, it must have been a mistake by PCNA. If you heard it from your dealer, he is either clueless or untrustworthy.
By the way, I just checked out the 2007 Porsche 997 Ordering Guide and the 2007 997 Turbo Product Information Guide, and never once did they call Cocoa or Terracotta "Natural Leathers". The US customer brochure did not address this particular issue, whereas the German customer brochure called it "Special leather" just like the others.
By the way, I just checked out the 2007 Porsche 997 Ordering Guide and the 2007 997 Turbo Product Information Guide, and never once did they call Cocoa or Terracotta "Natural Leathers". The US customer brochure did not address this particular issue, whereas the German customer brochure called it "Special leather" just like the others.
Pages 8 & 9
Of the official 07 997 Cab Order Guide on Renntech, dated October 06 clearly calls Terracotta, Cocoa, Brown, and Gray "Natural Leather".
So either PCNA were happy with this description, or they didn't have it checked by legal before it went out. It could be that this version has been superceded but I would have expected Renntech to have the most up-to-date version on the site.
So either PCNA were happy with this description, or they didn't have it checked by legal before it went out. It could be that this version has been superceded but I would have expected Renntech to have the most up-to-date version on the site.
Re: Except...
Quote:
Dan L said:
I did some research on this some time back when I ordered my natural brown interior. The natural leathers are sourced from the top 5-10% of the leather out there available for interiors. That's top of the quality pile. They are aniline dyed (vat) and the noteworthy part is thay they are not 'embellished' in any way. The vast majority of the leathers are treated to a series of processes to make them look better than they are. They are frequently sanded, embossed, and even painted to get the look they're are shooting for. One of the easiest tests is the smell test. Go find a coupe with natural leather,--and open the door and stick your head in. Then do that with a cocoa. Big difference. Now do the tactile test. Feel the two leathers. The natural feels more like a high quality Coach purse or handbag. The other really does give away that its been doctored. Frankly, I have been surprised at the durability of the natural. I thought it might be more susceptible to damage. It's not.
Dan
Thanks, Dan, for this definition. I have been a fan of natural leather for a long time and when I have mentioned that I was considering ordering it (dark grey) a chorus of "not worth the extra money," "looks too much like black," etc. has greeted me from well-meaning Porsche friends. To me, the natural leathers are extemely elegant and the qualitative difference between them and the standard and even special leathers is subtle but palpable. Especially the muted charcoal-colored carpet of the natural grey interior pleases me more than straight black. But, hey, I understand that most people don't buy Porsches for their interiors. And that natural leather is a very expensive option that one probably does not get back on resale. Nonetheless, I have ordered it on my GT3, and even thrown in a leather covered console, hatch cover, and shift level trim. Can't wait to see what it looks like.
Re: Except...
When you opt for a full leather interior the tiny step up to natural leather is not really that far. The comments from others on the interior in natural leather are alone worth the price of admission. I suspect that an error was made in calling the Terracotta and the Cocoa "natural." Special leather, perhaps, but not natural,--especially the cocoa which is doctored significantly to get that marbled rye look...
dan
dan
Mar 29, 2007 3:27:48 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
- Posts: 4856, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 27, 2005
- Reply to: Dan L
Re: Except...
Quote:
Dan L said:
When you opt for a full leather interior the tiny step up to natural leather is not really that far.
I agree - and IMO you definitely can feel the difference.
If I wouldn't have chosen the Cocoa for it's special appearance I would have picked the Natural Leather.
In the German order guide they distinct:
1. Leder (standard colours)
2. Sonderleder (Special Leather Cocoa + Terracotta, though I don't believe that there is a difference compared to "Leder" in terms of quality)
3. Naturleder (Natural Leather) - better quality (like explained in your earlier post)
Mar 29, 2007 3:32:49 PM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
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- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Mar 29, 2007 4:24:48 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
- Posts: 4856, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 27, 2005
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Thanks PJ!
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
So when PCNA calls cocoa "natural leather cocoa", that's plain wrong and an example of lazy, inaccurate translation.
Exactly - they should do their homework better
BTW you also may have a look at the car configurator on the P-website
I guess Porsche-speak is not for everybody
Just found out yesterday that on Sportauto's website there is a new nice feature (list of all HHR/NBR laptimes from their Supertests) and guess what - they only had Boxters
listed instead of Boxsters I typed a nice e-mail and they fixed it within hours
Mar 29, 2007 4:40:18 PM
- Le Chef
- Veteran
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- Loc: Chicago , United States
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- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Mar 29, 2007 5:05:34 PM
- easy_rider911
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: London , United Kingdom
- Posts: 22190, Gallery
- Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
- Reply to: Porsche-Jeck
Re: Thanks PJ!
Yep - it really annoys me when people spell it "Boxter". 
I try very hard not to make typos, even here on rennteam where these are just casual posts between petrolheads like us, but in anything formal or published, typos are just plain sloppy and careless. It reflects badly on us. Like wearing a crumpled shirt to the office.
What annoys me even more is poor grammar. It seems people care far less than they used to about speaking in an articulate manner. I think emails and text messaging haven't helped with this either nor does the fact that so many people get their information from watching TV rather than reading the written word.
Nowadays people just don't seem to care about using tenses (like the pluperfect) correctly anymore. Also people don't differentiate between the indicative and subjunctive moods properly. One hardly hears people using third person singular sentences anymore. Instead of "If one did X", we hear "If you did X". It's just not correct. All this grammatical rigour went when Latin was no longer taught in state schools. I am so glad I was lucky enough to learn Latin.
I am also tired of listening to people who use the word "like" as a space filler as in "It was like soooo gross man". Please could today's youth stop massacring the English language. Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton and Chaucer are no doubt turning in their graves. Thank goodness they never had to watch MTV!
Today's youth in the UK can't even speak their own language properly let alone speak foreign languages. So many of them speak 'estuary English' or refer to the letter "H" as "haitch" rather than "aitch". It seems that the word "nothing" has been replaced by the word "nuthink".
Sorry for ranting - there's not a lot I rant about but language is one such topic very close to my heart. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned when it comes to these matters...
I try very hard not to make typos, even here on rennteam where these are just casual posts between petrolheads like us, but in anything formal or published, typos are just plain sloppy and careless. It reflects badly on us. Like wearing a crumpled shirt to the office.
What annoys me even more is poor grammar. It seems people care far less than they used to about speaking in an articulate manner. I think emails and text messaging haven't helped with this either nor does the fact that so many people get their information from watching TV rather than reading the written word.
Nowadays people just don't seem to care about using tenses (like the pluperfect) correctly anymore. Also people don't differentiate between the indicative and subjunctive moods properly. One hardly hears people using third person singular sentences anymore. Instead of "If one did X", we hear "If you did X". It's just not correct. All this grammatical rigour went when Latin was no longer taught in state schools. I am so glad I was lucky enough to learn Latin.
I am also tired of listening to people who use the word "like" as a space filler as in "It was like soooo gross man". Please could today's youth stop massacring the English language. Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton and Chaucer are no doubt turning in their graves. Thank goodness they never had to watch MTV!
Today's youth in the UK can't even speak their own language properly let alone speak foreign languages. So many of them speak 'estuary English' or refer to the letter "H" as "haitch" rather than "aitch". It seems that the word "nothing" has been replaced by the word "nuthink".
Sorry for ranting - there's not a lot I rant about but language is one such topic very close to my heart. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned when it comes to these matters...
Mar 29, 2007 5:21:17 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Rheinland , Germany
- Posts: 4856, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 27, 2005
- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Thanks PJ!
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Today's youth in the UK can't even speak their own language properly let alone speak foreign languages. So many of them speak 'estuary English' or refer to the letter "H" as "haitch" rather than "aitch". It seems that the word "nothing" has been replaced by the word "nuthink".
Sorry for ranting - there's not a lot I rant about but language is one such topic very close to my heart. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned when it comes to these matters...
LoL - I feel the same
Though I cannot contribute a lot in turning Rennteam into a place with proper English grammar 
I can assure you that we face the same problems in Germany (and it's not only uneducated people using this kind of New-Speak, it's even promoted in the TV news) Politicians also are serving as very bad examples
Maybe you should open a new thread in the OT Board - it's an interesting topic
Re: Except...
Hello,
So it's safe to assume the following is an error? (Taken from Auto Gallery, a dealer in Los Angeles.) Incidentally, does anyone happen to know who enters the data on these web sites? PCNA or the dealer?
http://autogallery.porschedealer.com/new_cars/info.php?inventoryid=287541
2007 Porsche Carrera C4S Cabriolet
VIN ***********776626
Stock ID
Transmission 6-Speed Manual
Exterior Arctic Silver Metallic / Cocoa Top
Interior Natural Leather Cocoa
So it's safe to assume the following is an error? (Taken from Auto Gallery, a dealer in Los Angeles.) Incidentally, does anyone happen to know who enters the data on these web sites? PCNA or the dealer?
http://autogallery.porschedealer.com/new_cars/info.php?inventoryid=287541
2007 Porsche Carrera C4S Cabriolet
VIN ***********776626
Stock ID
Transmission 6-Speed Manual
Exterior Arctic Silver Metallic / Cocoa Top
Interior Natural Leather Cocoa
Quote:
The Groom said:
Cocoa and Terracotta have never been considered as "natural leather" by Porsche Germany. If you read "Natural Leather Cocoa" somewhere, it must have been a mistake by PCNA. If you heard it from your dealer, he is either clueless or untrustworthy.
By the way, I just checked out the 2007 Porsche 997 Ordering Guide and the 2007 997 Turbo Product Information Guide, and never once did they call Cocoa or Terracotta "Natural Leathers". The US customer brochure did not address this particular issue, whereas the German customer brochure called it "Special leather" just like the others.
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