Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds, - Page1

Mar 21, 2007 9:24:29 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005

Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

I am mildy disappointed at the car's sensitivity to side winds ----- passing rows of trees, and then not, and the car responds more than my estimed 1996 NSX. With that car the wind direction is irrelevant------ The downforce is so large in the NSX, that different damper valves are initiated as the car is pushed closer to the ground, and the ride quality at high speeds is extarordinarily good, and better then the PASM on normal.

We clearly have a downforce issue. I read that the 997 is much better then a 996, so I am glad I own a 997!
Does anyone have experience with adding a front spoiler below the bumper......there are quite a few on the market.? Of course if the problem is too little downforce at the back, this would be not be a wise move!

The problem is not due to tire pressure or alignment as with no or little wind, the tracking is excellent.

Thanks----

KiwiCanuck

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Mar 22, 2007 2:08:17 AM

Sharptt: Newbie; Loc: Rochester; Posts: 26, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 24, 2006; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Lowering the car will help a lot especially if you are driving a C2 and not a C2S. In this regard, the C4S is better yet. Just adding a front lip without balancing changes in the rear will probably have little if any positive effect and may even make things worse.

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Mar 22, 2007 3:42:22 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Sharptt

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

I have a plain 997 and have never had an issue with side winds. No sensitivity at all.

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Mar 22, 2007 6:17:51 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Sharptt

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Hello Sharptt,

I have PASM so there should not be any difference C2 to C2S, they are both -10mm.

vtrader says he has 'no sensitivity' in a 997, which is odd, as I do [and most cars do, unless they are sports cars], and I gather that the 997 is better than the 996 [but not 'insensitive'].

Mmmmh

Amazing on this thread ---- 72 read it and only 2 had comments ....... do we all drive our cars?

KiwiCanuck

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Mar 22, 2007 6:38:59 PM

Weasel: Junior; Loc: GA; Posts: 125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 5, 2006; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

I must admit I noticed the same thing recently (@ 85+ mph, PASM normal), but there were some unusually strong gusts in our area that day (as the Weather Channel had predicted) due to the leading edge an incoming storm. I attributed the car's response to that since I couldn't recall it behaving that way before or anytime since. I have a C4S Cab with stock suspension and no aftermarket or optional OEM aero parts.

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Mar 22, 2007 6:49:38 PM

catdog: Junior; Loc: United States; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2005; Reply to: Weasel

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

definitely sensitive to cross winds...
what to add though is not clear if it would help

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Mar 22, 2007 7:57:22 PM

JWW: Newbie; Loc: Connecticut, USA; Posts: 38, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2005; Reply to: catdog

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

There is quite a bit of wind sensitivity for sure. I was expecting it as a 911 'feature' so have no desire to try and fix it. For the the lightness of the front under certain conditions adds to the unique feel of a rear engine Porsche. Just my 2 cts

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Mar 22, 2007 8:02:01 PM

tkids: Co-Pilot; Loc: CO. USA. , United States; Posts: 198, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 15, 2005; Reply to: JWW

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

When I was driving the Autobahn at 120-130mph, I hit some crosswinds in the 997c4s and it was not very stable. However, back here in the US no problem with crosswinds at 80MPH

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Mar 22, 2007 8:53:18 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: tkids

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

What does sensitive to winds mean? If you have a side gust, of course you feel it, but if you hold the steering steady the car does not budge. And I do not meant counter-steer. Do you feel it? yes, and that is good, it's the car telling you conditions changed.

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Mar 22, 2007 9:01:12 PM

Weasel: Junior; Loc: GA; Posts: 125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 5, 2006; Reply to: tkids

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

I'm guessing the "right" aero parts would help a little but not cure the "problem" entirely. Lowering the ride height could help as well but doing so presents a wholly different set of issues (clearance, compliance, etc.). There's really no way around real-world physics. My dad's minivan very nearly changes lanes at highway speeds with strong crosswinds. I personally will NEVER own one of those, of course.

"Never say never" -- whatever!

Just in case you minivan owners/drivers want to unite and flame me, I'd like to state for the record that I have nuthin' against minivan drivers so long as they don't do 50 mph in the fast lane and check their blindspots before lane changes; actually, it's hard not to appreciate the utility of the damned things.

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Mar 23, 2007 3:05:15 AM

tkids: Co-Pilot; Loc: CO. USA. , United States; Posts: 198, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 15, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

What I felt at 120-130mph is a light front end. Had to slow down! Lack of down force. I found myself thinking at 150-170mph going around the long sweeping bends of the Autobahn that I would have liked the GT3 rear spoiler.

Quote:
ADias said:
What does sensitive to winds mean? If you have a side gust, of course you feel it, but if you hold the steering steady the car does not budge. And I do not meant counter-steer. Do you feel it? yes, and that is good, it's the car telling you conditions changed.

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Mar 23, 2007 12:46:28 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: tkids

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

It is an alignment issue/feature and PASM makes it more noticeable. The cars are set up to turn-in well so while they track straight when there is no cross wind, just a little wind seems to push the car though. Drive a big, slab sided truck or Van and it will not seem as sensitive because the toe in on these vehicles is much greater to 'MAKE' it track straight. Some may prefer this but, in fact, 'sailing' your Porsche is part of the charm when you want quick steering turn in. Next time you get an alignment you should be able to request a little more toe (at the expense of some tire and mileage).

Enjoy, it's all good.

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Mar 23, 2007 1:00:31 PM

Scotty A: Senior; Loc: New Jersey; Posts: 606, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

I haven't noticed any impact whatsoever from sidewinds, in fact, have positively noticed other vehicles bouncing in the wind while I felt nothing.

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Mar 23, 2007 9:14:11 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

Good comment Leawood911.............it is the case that now my body (shoulders and hands)is more sensitive to the 997's steering response and agility, I am automatically compensating to the wind force when it occurs i.e.in and out of the shadow of the wind due to rows of trees. And on the trip I habitually take, I am cruising near 100mph, so one expects more care to be needed.

I would not wish to cruise much above 100mph on a windy gusty day however as 'tkids' noted on the Autobahn.

Cheers KiwiCanuck

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Mar 23, 2007 9:57:36 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

The other day I was on a completely clear road driving to Narita Airport, I was late for a flight ( one of the most important meetings this year) and I hammered it all the way - got up to 150MPH most of the journey. The car was fine until I hit a strong crosswind over a bridge - I thought the damn thing was going to fly! Scared the life out of me! I slowed down to about 80mph and the car was fine.

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Mar 23, 2007 10:25:24 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:
Mmmmh

Amazing on this thread ---- 72 read it and only 2 had comments ....... do we all drive our cars?

Mmmmh.

Maybe the other 70 couldn't be bothered to try to explain that sensitivity to side winds has more to do with the relative positions of the center of gravity and the center of area of the side view of a car than its downforce - or lack of it - and decided to go out to drive their cars instead.

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Mar 24, 2007 12:02:41 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Fill the gas tank

The added weight solves the problem.

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Mar 24, 2007 11:06:14 PM

KiwiCanuck: Co-Pilot; Loc: Canada; Posts: 210, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 14, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Thanks for the mildy sarcastic bit of wisdom frotz------ if you had read my originl memo in the thread, you would have noted that I also drive a 1996 NSX. which has a very similar centre of mass, and centre of area [when the gas tank of the 911 is filled and the NSX is near empty, the mass distribution is almost identical]. The NSX is almost impervious to cross winds ------ sarcasm misplaced.

The memo from my referenced collague above, about front alignmnet, and responsive 911 steering, is a much more helful comment.

And, one suspects, the C2 and C2S need a front spoiler, giving some significant downforces, and a bit more wing! For those of us who can safely drive at 120 plus on chosen roads, extra stability would be nice------as our colleague from Tokyo found out. I have also zoomed over a few over- passes, and had to back off for safety.

Cheers KiwiCanuck

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Mar 25, 2007 11:48:05 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: fritz

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Quote:
fritz said:
Mmmmh.

Maybe the other 70 couldn't be bothered to try to explain that sensitivity to side winds has more to do with the relative positions of the center of gravity and the center of area of the side view of a car than its downforce - or lack of it - and decided to go out to drive their cars instead.

You are correct that these are factors but the contact to the moving road below is via the suspension.

You may agree (or not) that the alignment (toe-in, camber) can be set to make any car track almost straight as an arrow, regardless of crosswinds or cross section of the car. Trucks, Vans, etc. must use this technique since they are 'pushed' around a lot more.
The 911 trades that straight-line stability partly because it can, due to it's design, and for sake of steering response.

It may be altered to suit your taste to some extent, for instance if you drive a lot of highway miles at high speed and don't want to get blown around - but it will change the character of the car a little (maybe for the better).
(I wonder if Porsche uses the same alignment for all countries?)

For what it's worth the new cars, 993 and up, are a lot more stable at high speed than the older 911's. I recall many of my old cars were tricky to drive long highway streches, even without cross winds. Those cars were always moving around. Not in a bad way but in a manner which required constant attention.

At any rate, when it comes time for an alignment, speak to your dealer about adding a little high-speed, straight line stability. They will be able to make the change to the alignment within factory specs.

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Mar 26, 2007 5:45:06 AM

Pink Panther: Pilot; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 363, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 4, 2005; Reply to: KiwiCanuck

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Quote:
KiwiCanuck said:

Amazing on this thread ---- 72 read it and only 2 had comments ....... do we all drive our cars?

KiwiCanuck

Not on windy days, no, not yet.

What I have noticed is that the front end being so light that it can lose traction momentarily at high speed due to surface imperfections/undulations. I have a stretch of undulating motorway that I use frequently with a long gradual left bend. I know from experience I need to keep below 90 to keep traction. You cant see the undulations by looking but you will certainly find them if you did this stretch over 100mph.

I have an order in for a GT3 and hope that front downforce will be better on this model.

Does anyone know if PCCB's improve or exacerbate this problem? Because the brakes are unsprung weight I am thinking that there will be an improvement. ie the front will be lighter and be more prone to bobbing but the wheels will have less vertical momentum to enable them to return to the road and regain traction.

As I understand it this is THE big issue around C2's. We love the delicacy of the steering but the cost is a bobbing front end. Some are prepared to trade some of this steering feel for less bobbing by getting a C4. Personally I am happy to keep the car below 100mph and enjoy the extra feel that this nervous car provides.

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Mar 26, 2007 9:07:28 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds

Quote:
Leawood911 said:
It is an alignment issue/feature and PASM makes it more noticeable. The cars are set up to turn-in well so while they track straight when there is no cross wind, just a little wind seems to push the car though. Drive a big, slab sided truck or Van and it will not seem as sensitive because the toe in on these vehicles is much greater to 'MAKE' it track straight. Some may prefer this but, in fact, 'sailing' your Porsche is part of the charm when you want quick steering turn in. Next time you get an alignment you should be able to request a little more toe (at the expense of some tire and mileage).

Enjoy, it's all good.

Exactly

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Mar 26, 2007 9:22:41 AM

john999s: Senior; Loc: Hessen, Germany , Germany; Posts: 630, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2005; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

I found on both my 911's that you can feel it but it doesn't actually move much.

I also think that the car actually gets better once you get over 100 mph and you use more power. Perhaps the centre of pressure moves.

With any rear engined (as opposed to mid-engined) car you'll get some sensitivity but I have been amazed how planted 2WD 911's feel even on a windy day on the autobahn.

The feedback and on centre sensitivity of the 997 seems a little less direct than the 996 but on the other hand the 997 seems less sensitive to crosswinds. You pays your money....etc

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Mar 26, 2007 9:29:52 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Pink Panther

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

Quote:
Pink Panther said:
Personally I am happy to keep the car below 100mph and enjoy the extra feel that this nervous car provides.

Yes - so true - I actually enjoy the wonderful steering feel at 60-90mph most of all. The pleasure I get is so good that I don't need to drive at over 120mph to have fun.

Yes, the -20mm sports suspension requires constant attention but I feel literally everything.

Yes, when going over undulations at high speed, the car feels airborne momentarily but I have total trust in the car. I just accept this knowing that there is no danger and that I am very far from the limits of the car.

As for cross winds, kiwicanuck, you certainly identified a noticeable characteristic in certain weather conditions but, IMHO, it's because our cars are so sensitive that we feel the buffeting by cross winds. Perhaps I can put it this way, IMHO, feeling buffetted by cross winds is fine just as long as the car itself isn't made to alter its direction by those winds.

Another issue I would throw into the equation is the sensation of speed. Other cars achieve the ability to mask high speed not by a superior set up to a 911 but by numbing the whole experience down. I am happy to accept a live-wire, nervousness which nonetheless ensures I feel everything. I don't want a car which hides how fast I'm going. In a 997S, I feel the speed and I can feel how the speed the car is travelling at interracts with the weather conditions around me.

Sorry if I digress gentlemen - I would also add that the 911 makes me feel like I can do anything - I just have to think of it and it's possible. The response, power, sensation of safety are all so confidence-inspiring.

On Sunday, I took the long way home from my parents' home after enjoying Sunday lunch with them. The roads weren't too busy, many cars were going along at 50-60mph. I was able to sprint past occasionally weaving through the traffic as if they were all stationary.

I am simply speechless at what this car can do. Perhaps it's the fact that I have a -20mm 997S that adds to this amazing experience...

Just my 2 cents...

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Mar 28, 2007 12:40:24 PM

AUM: Veteran; Loc: Germany; Posts: 1203, Gallery; Registered on: May 2, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Sensitivity of C2 to side/cross winds,

My 997 C2S was a fine road car (although a little unstable at 250+ kph in sidewinds and on bumpy autobahn sweepers). When I started to track the car, however, its limitations were immediately apparent.

So I changed to a 996 Turbo with H&R coilovers. After lowering, this car was stable at 310 kph and was great at everything except prolonged track use (too heavy).

My next car will be a CSL or a 997 GT3; these cars are stable at very high speeds and light enough for extended track use. But there are some reports of GT3s feeling unstable when encountering bumps in high-speed sweepers.

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