Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!! - Page2

Mar 23, 2007 1:19:29 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: mp

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
mp said:
Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
KresoF1 said:
BTW, clutch will last only up to 10 or so LC starts...
So, after that go figure...

LC is actually intended to save the clutch. It allows wheel spin and hence is not efficient at all but impressive and harmless on the clutch.
I tried it last weekend on a 599 and it was rather fun, bar utterly pointless.

There is a launch technique that consists in engaging 1st gear then holding left paddle until it blips, then foot on brakes, apply full throttle and release brake.

Canonball departure but that would definitely destroy the clutch quite rapidly.

Sorry Fanch, but you have this backwards. LC is brutal on the clutch. The concept of LC is to allow the clutch to slip which would increase wear and tear. Allowing the clutch to slip would reduce wheel spin. Less wheel spin = better traction.

Incorrect.
Tried it no later than last weekend.
LC allows wheel spin, and hence, no clutch wear.
Try it, you will see.
I believe LC is not availabe for US cars.
Also see EVO roadtest of the 599 where they mention that same case.
www.evo.co.uk

I wish more emphasis would be paid to rolling starts, which IMO are more indicative of real-world performance - ie. 5-160kph, 50-160kph, 50-200kph etc, rather than standing starts, such as 0-100kph (0-60mph) or 1/4 mile acceleration. US car magazines seem to particularly focus on 0-60mph acceleration, even when testing Supercars - why?

How many owners would "trash" their beloved cars in this manner?

We all know that standing starts are tricky affairs, which are very much driver dependent. Tire type, tire pressure, track conditions etc, all play a very important role. I've heard of GT3s, C2S being revved to 5000-6000rpm before dropping the clutch, inducing severe axle-hop - I find this almost ridiculous. Drivetrains and clutches don't last long with this type of abuse.

Getting back on topic, the 599 should never be able to out-accelerate the Enzo, given its added weight, smaller tires, less favourable weight transfer characteristics and less hp. Can't imagine it would win a rolling start contest, such as 50-250kph or 50-300kph. No way!

Agree rolling starts/N-ring times (on street tires) are far more relevant....but ricers/rappers/bench racers seem to favor 0-xxx times....

But would also argue track is fairly irrelevant to prob 95%+ of actual 599 buyers.....those who are interested in tracks can easily get FXX/430C for track-only duty.....

And given F's anemic sales of FXX, reality is very few w/resources are particularly interested in tracks...

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Mar 23, 2007 4:09:31 AM

CarreraGtRacer: Veteran; Loc: Houston, TX; Posts: 1181, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 1, 2004; Reply to: Jean

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
Jean said:
Quote:
CarreraGtRacer said:
haha this basically means

Carrera GT > 599 > Enzo

Wow

I like your logic.

Thanks I like my logic too

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Mar 23, 2007 4:12:32 AM

CarreraGtRacer: Veteran; Loc: Houston, TX; Posts: 1181, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 1, 2004; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Jean said:
Quote:
CarreraGtRacer said:
haha this basically means

Carrera GT > 599 > Enzo

Wow

I like your logic.

What logic?

This Logic <--click

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Mar 23, 2007 4:45:44 AM

SSNISTR: Senior; Loc: Florida; Posts: 611, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2004; Reply to: CarreraGtRacer

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

LC IS very hard on the clutch....

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Mar 23, 2007 9:03:38 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: SSNISTR

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
BluCamSS said:
LC IS very hard on the clutch....

Sorry but incorrect.
Maybe the LC system has been redesigned for the 599.

Please refer to EVO very informative road test as well as my own experience of course:

Quote from magazine:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/205671/ferrari_599_gtb.html

"We make a few steady 100mph runs to bring the 599's vitals up to temperature. These involve tyre-warming zigzags that would impress Alonso, each steering input so obediently and immediately translated into a direction change that I'm slammed into alternate bolsters on my seat. Satisfied that all is primed, we line up with the simple perspective of the mile straight in front of us and Michele talks me through the start procedure.

This does not involve the button marked LC. Instead the process is this: set the wheel-mounted 'manettino' switch to 'race' mode and then, with your left foot on the brake, select first with the 'up' paddle, then pull back and hold the 'down' paddle for a couple of seconds. There's a beep which is the signal to mash the throttle. The revs build quickly but not as if the gearbox is in neutral, and as the tacho needle gets to 4000rpm you jump off the brake pedal.
"

And to clarify things, whether LC is hard on the clutch or not, I think standing starts are pointless, so LC function on the 599, which allows wheelspin and hence more about show than go, is also pretty pathetic if you ask me.

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Mar 23, 2007 9:05:51 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Left out the important bit from the article, sorry:

Quote from EVO:

This does not involve the button marked LC. Launch control is designed to save the clutch and transmission by spinning the rear tyres, which is spectacular but not fast.

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Mar 23, 2007 10:16:15 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: CarreraGtRacer

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
CarreraGtRacer said:
Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Jean said:
Quote:
CarreraGtRacer said:
haha this basically means

Carrera GT > 599 > Enzo

Wow

I like your logic.

What logic?

This Logic <--click

Wrong logic. Correct it would be: Enzo > Carrera GT > 599.

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Mar 23, 2007 11:12:27 AM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Stefan Roser, the RUF test driver said about 599 thatit`s the best supercar on the market today from all points of view.

Also he said that with all the efforts of W Rohrl, the Enzo is a better car.

He said those things to a RT 12 owner.

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Mar 23, 2007 7:21:22 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
Stefan Roser, the RUF test driver said about 599 thatit`s the best supercar on the market today from all points of view.

Also he said that with all the efforts of W Rohrl, the Enzo is a better car.

He said those things to a RT 12 owner.

Of course the Enzo is a better supercar. The RT12 is derived from a standard 997 - that it can even be compared to the Enzo is pretty good IMO.

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Mar 24, 2007 12:05:09 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
BluCamSS said:
LC IS very hard on the clutch....

Sorry but incorrect.
Maybe the LC system has been redesigned for the 599.

Please refer to EVO very informative road test as well as my own experience of course:

Quote from magazine:

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/205671/ferrari_599_gtb.html

"We make a few steady 100mph runs to bring the 599's vitals up to temperature. These involve tyre-warming zigzags that would impress Alonso, each steering input so obediently and immediately translated into a direction change that I'm slammed into alternate bolsters on my seat. Satisfied that all is primed, we line up with the simple perspective of the mile straight in front of us and Michele talks me through the start procedure.

This does not involve the button marked LC. Instead the process is this: set the wheel-mounted 'manettino' switch to 'race' mode and then, with your left foot on the brake, select first with the 'up' paddle, then pull back and hold the 'down' paddle for a couple of seconds. There's a beep which is the signal to mash the throttle. The revs build quickly but not as if the gearbox is in neutral, and as the tacho needle gets to 4000rpm you jump off the brake pedal.
"

And to clarify things, whether LC is hard on the clutch or not, I think standing starts are pointless, so LC function on the 599, which allows wheelspin and hence more about show than go, is also pretty pathetic if you ask me.

I understand you're getting a 599, so, I think you should check with your dealer about LC. Or a Ferrari mechanic. Better yet, check with Ferrari. EVO is wrong about LC.

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Mar 26, 2007 7:05:47 AM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
enzomikael said:
Stefan Roser, the RUF test driver said about 599 thatit`s the best supercar on the market today from all points of view.

Also he said that with all the efforts of W Rohrl, the Enzo is a better car.

He said those things to a RT 12 owner.

Of course the Enzo is a better supercar. The RT12 is derived from a standard 997 - that it can even be compared to the Enzo is pretty good IMO.

I wasn`t clear enough but I was reffering to the CGT, that Stefan Roser said with all Rohrl`s efforts the Enzo it`s better

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Mar 26, 2007 7:20:28 AM

assman!!!: Pilot; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 446, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2004; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
enzomikael said:
Stefan Roser, the RUF test driver said about 599 thatit`s the best supercar on the market today from all points of view.

Also he said that with all the efforts of W Rohrl, the Enzo is a better car.

He said those things to a RT 12 owner.

Of course the Enzo is a better supercar. The RT12 is derived from a standard 997 - that it can even be compared to the Enzo is pretty good IMO.

I wasn`t clear enough but I was reffering to the CGT, that Stefan Roser said with all Rohrl`s efforts the Enzo it`s better

Where did you hear this? Also, what are his reasons for preferring the Enzo?

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Mar 26, 2007 7:57:23 AM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: assman!!!

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

I read it here:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65897&page=2
scroll until you reach Hesperus post

As you`ll clearly see, its no BS, serious stuff

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Mar 26, 2007 9:30:43 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
I read it here:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65897&page=2
scroll until you reach Hesperus post

As you`ll clearly see, its no BS, serious stuff

Read the post. Yes, the Enzo is a better road-going supercar and that's what he was referring to. The Carrera GT was made for the track and it shines there. Aside from looking similar (low, wide and with 600+ bhp engines), the cars couldn't have been designed more differently.

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Mar 26, 2007 9:45:21 AM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

And how did you come to that conclusion ?

Where exactly Mr. Roser specified that around a track the CGT is better ?

Read it again :

one other thing he said which i couldn't forget-- "i'm a Porsche man... and I think Walter Rohrl tried his best... but I have to admit the Enzo is a better car than the Carrera GT

He said that it`s better, he didn`t specify track or street.
You love the CGT ? Good, i like too.
A respected driver, german, that knows what he`s talking and said that Enzo is better.

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Mar 26, 2007 10:05:00 AM

ha: Expert; Loc: Riyadh , Saudi Arabia; Posts: 1695, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 20, 2003; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

I think they are both an engineering marvel in their own ways.

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Mar 26, 2007 10:21:45 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
And how did you come to that conclusion ?

Where exactly Mr. Roser specified that around a track the CGT is better ?

Read it again :

one other thing he said which i couldn't forget-- "i'm a Porsche man... and I think Walter Rohrl tried his best... but I have to admit the Enzo is a better car than the Carrera GT

He said that it`s better, he didn`t specify track or street.
You love the CGT ? Good, i like too.
A respected driver, german, that knows what he`s talking and said that Enzo is better.

You didn't get the context, did you? He was referring to the cars' suitability for daily use. The Enzo wins there with its easier-to-launch tranny and height-adjustment, plus better straight-line performance.

The CGT is a track-oriented beast and it has beat the Enzo in every single head-to-head comparo. Then again, I'm unbiased when it comes to this issue (or rather, I'd love to have an Enzo for cruising), but don't act like you know everything because of what Stefan Rosener said. Nowadays he is an automotive journalist and judges cars by more than track performance. Why do you think Ferrari never allowed the Enzo to be tested on the Nring against the CGT?

Like I've said, different cars, built with a different purpose in mind.

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Mar 26, 2007 11:02:30 AM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

I see you can suck it up.

POINT OUT where do you get the conclusion ?
WHAT element makes you draw that conclusion ?

You`re forgetting that on Lotus`s ex test track (for you : TG track) in the hands of a racing driver beat your beloved CGT.

Grow up, face the facts.

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Mar 26, 2007 11:54:41 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
I see you can suck it up.

POINT OUT where do you get the conclusion ?
WHAT element makes you draw that conclusion ?

You`re forgetting that on Lotus`s ex test track (for you : TG track) in the hands of a racing driver beat your beloved CGT.

Grow up, face the facts.

Stop acting like a troll. Try Supercars.net for your kind of dialogue. In the meantime, consider that the tests on Top Gear aren't done on the same days.

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Mar 26, 2007 1:16:57 PM

enzomikael: Newbie; Loc: london; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 10, 2006; Reply to: Crash

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

ROTFLMAO, you have the problem buddy, not me.
I gave the best example, but you came up with childish unargumented explanations

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Mar 26, 2007 1:35:47 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

Quote:
enzomikael said:
ROTFLMAO, you have the problem buddy, not me.
I gave the best example, but you came up with childish unargumented explanations

Again, troll. As far as I'm concerned, the Enzo can be a million times better than the CGT, but it's narrow-minded folks such as yourself that really tarnish a good debate. I'll stop replying to you now. And if you ever want to make a good, argumented debate, I'm all ears. Just not on this level.

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Mar 26, 2007 2:06:44 PM

CGT1178: Co-Pilot; Loc: kuwait; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 26, 2006; Reply to: enzomikael

Re: 599 Beats the Enzo!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_F9Zfv1wBdM ..

Carrera GT > enzo in the street .. but in the numbers and magazines maby enzo is faster (all the ferraries like this ) !

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