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DavidSF said:
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STRADALE said:
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DavidSF said:
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nberry said:
David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.
Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.
Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.
Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.
A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.
My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.
I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.
David
David - What sports cars do you own/have you owned? Doesn't matter if you haven't owned any, you still have as good a right to post here as any. The reason I ask is I just want to have an idea about where you're getting some of your opinion's from because honestly I'm beginning to think you're kind of a knucklehead. (meant in a playful way) No offense it's just that some of your positions are...well they just seem like personal assumptions than based on reality. Here's what I mean:
"However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" "
First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? If they cared so much about getting more CGT's into the hands of customers and not about making money off their customers why would they have CUT at the last minute the amount of CGT's to be produced from 1500 to 1250? Why not just make those 1500 cars and let more people afford them?
"Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value"
????? Unless you're a Saudi prince I'm betting you care about what happens to your half a million dollar purchase, whether it be a car, real estate or anything else that costs half a million dollars, the people that can afford a car at that price didn't get wealthy by not caring about what happens to their money.
"It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things"
First off whatever your prejudice is, it's a shame you're continuing it here on a sports car forum. As P-car/ F-Car owners we already have enough clueless people making judgements about why we love these cars. Second off I don't own a gold diamond encrusted Rolex and if someone does good for you. But where do you get this analogy from anyway? I can honestly say that in the last few years of attending dozens of Ferrari events and rally's I've yet to see a single F-car owner wearing a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". Do you often attend Ferrari rallye's where everyone is wearing diamond encrusted Rolex's or is it just something you decided that you've seen in your mind, kinda like the "vulgar" comment ? It's weird but according to you the Gallardo Spyder is a fantastic looking car but the 430 Spider is like a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". The cars are very, very similair, it's not like you're comparing a 430 vs a Ford Taurus. Come on, honestly what's your REAL beef w/ Ferrari? Did you get treated badly by a dealer or something?
RE: Your next post : "I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."
Yeah, Ferrari customers are really being spit on by Ferrari, the best Ferrari customers those Enzo owners really got the shaft and sucks owning a F430, I feel like I just got ripped off.... The whole Ferrari experience from driving the heck out of my CS and then trading it in 2 years later, making money in the process, to visiting the factory with my wife for a free tour and then picking up my bee spoke, customized 430, the Ferrari dealer/sales experience was just horrible, including the personalized service, wish I was treated more like when I pick up my P-cars. Even my Ferrari dealer's charity rally events that they organize twice a year, where the Police close down traffic on Long Island highways for us to drive on, it's a terrible thing, the balls of them to ask me to participate. Spit! And the icing on the cake - there's the horrible performance of the 430, I mean it's just a terrible car to drive, no fun at all, how can Ferrari even offer this car to it's customers they should be ashamed... Yeah, I feel like Ferrari is spitting at the owners, it's been just terrible. lol! ridiculous.
I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster. Previously I owned a Toyota MR-2 turbo. I am a fan of mid-engine sports cars. My next car will be a Cayman S when it gets the HP bump to past 300hp and with PDK. I paid cash for my new Boxster. Resale value isn't that important to me. What was important to me was I got my custom ordered car with only a 3 month wait. That is why I say Porsche cares about its customers more than Ferrari. Porsche's business model is more about the customer, less on the "brand and image" crowd. I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" because of these 3 reasons: 1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari. 2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP. 3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars. How can you resolve the above 3 points with customer satisfaction? How is that customer focused? Rather it seems to me Ferrari is trying to manipulate the market for their cars instead of being more accountable and taking responsibility for the quality of the cars they produce. Contrast with Porsche. New Porsches have less than a year wait. Often just 3 months for custom ordered cars. New Porsches can readily be found for under MSRP. Porsches look great. Isn't that very customer focused? If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired? I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar. I felt it was an appropriate comparision since I consider those wathces vulgar too, yet there are buyers and admirers of such things that I can't understand. Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions. I am making a statement more about the car, and its vulgarities, and not the owners. I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch. Both are flashy, no doubt. One is elegant, classy, and beautfiul. The other is not.
David
So then Toyota cares about their customers more than Porsche because they can get the car to you faster? Come on.
"I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster" - But your biggest gripe about the 430 Spider is it's roll hoops. okay.
"I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" - Not trying to tell you what to do but in the BIGGER PICTURE we're on the same side as car guys, wish you wouldn't use this tone and imho kinda makes you sound very immature but whatever. Same for the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" comment's. There's better ways to make your point.
"1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari" - Not always true. And in some cases can be true of Porsche.
"2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP."- Not true. Dealers cannot sell New Ferrrai's for more than MSRP but owners of almost new Ferrari's can sell their cars for more than MSRP, not a bad deal for F-car owners if you ask me.
"3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars" - Yeah okay, terrible..
"I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar." - I posted the article where you said the "vulgar" comment was printed and the comment wasn't there.
"Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions." - Still don't get your analogy but okay. And the 430 Spider is "vulgar" but you love the way the Gallardo Spyder looks and would drive that car. okay, I see the big difference.
btw: for the Ferrari, it's "Spider".
"I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch." - You sure do hate that watch eh? Okay doke.
"If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired?" - Again your making your own personal assumptions. Dun no maybe he had Halatoses.
Let me ask you something - Have you ever driven a F430 or F430 Spider? How about a Gallardo?