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Danny G said:
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STRADALE said:
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DavidSF said:
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STRADALE said:
In my area as in most of the US the F430 will always have far greater re-sale %'s than the turbo. It was the same w/ the 996 turbo vs. the 360/Challenge_Stradale. Believe me I know, I took about a 25% re-sale hit on my turbo after 18 months and I MADE MONEY after owning my CS 2 years. Last week I was offered $35k over what I paid for my 430. No biggy though, it's not news; anyone in the US that's been an owner of both cars (turbo & CS, or 430) will basically tell you the same thing.
But what was the mileage on your CS? High mileage Ferraris plummet in resale values. Ferraris have high resale value on face value, but if you dig deeper, it's because their owners rarely drive them and so they have very low mileage, AND Ferrari produces them in low volume, so supply/demand is a factor. It has nothing to do with them being superior cars and so an exceptional demand for them, but rather Ferrari manipulating the market value the same way that DeBeers manipulates the diamond market, and owners rarely driving them and hence low mileage compared to other sports cars. If Ferrari produced as many F430s as Porsche makes the 997 there would be more F430s sitting on dealer lots and bigger discounts.
David
Trust me from real world experience buying and selling both cars around the same time dealing w/ the same market the turbo just doesn't have anywhere near the same re-sale as the 8 cyl Ferrari in the US. It just doesn't dude. It's the same - 996 turbo vs. 360 or CS/ 997 turbo vs 430. Mileage on my turbo was greater and the car was newer yet I took a 25% depreciation hit vs making money on the CS. 430's have been selling at large premiums for over a year, the 997 turbo is no where near the 430's re-sale. I'm telling you anyone in the US that's owned and traded these 2 cars will tell you the same thing.
It's not that I don't respect other people's opinion's on this board, people that don't own these cars, it's all very cordial and everyone entitled to their own position, it's just when you don't have the real world experience to make comments and when instead of talking about a subjective area, where facts are the direct opposite it becomes somewhat annoying. You want to say the 430 Spider is a horrible looking car, fine whatever, it's your opinion but starting a thread stating the turbo has better re-sale than the 430 and not posting the fact it's based on European values is not just wrong it's irresponsible. Nick lives in the US so obviously his comments are regarding the US, and he happens to be correct.
For whatever or why ever you have a thorn in your side regarding the 430 Spider, this place is great for others trying to find factual information, your beef imho really shouldn't be used to try and twist facts to suit your purpose. I happen to be in love with BOTH Porsche & Ferrari and put my money where my mouth is. In fact I plan on conducting a long term test of the 430 vs. the 997 turbo once I collect my 997 turbo cab. This test of course will benefit the scientific community and I have no plans to get any pleasure from the head to head comparison tests whatsoever. 
I'm not biased towards one manufacturer or the other. And frankly the whole 430 vs turbo arguement always sounds as silly to me as ' my daddy can beat up your daddy' . LOL!! I mean, come on, they're both fantastic cars but people get so one sided as if they were routing for one sports team over the other. And imho it's not till you realize the true greatness of both cars and hold them tight to your bosom that you will feel true nirvana....... ...... Please whatever your issue is, you're perfectly entitled to your subjective opinion but try and keep the real world factual stuff to yourself until you know more about what you're talking about, no disrepect intended, that's the nicest way I can think of saying what I really mean.
Actually what David is arguing is sound. The crux is that because Ferrari restricts supply and Porsche does not, the relative difference in depreciation may not be soley due to variation in demand/desirability. Stradale, you're an ex-stockbroker, right?
I'm going to take an analytical leap-of-faith and say that in the absence of supply controls, Ferraris would depreciate equally to Lambos in the USA. I think i'm correct in saying that they have equal levels of brand cachet in the USA (and rest of the world). Also, they are very similar in price and performence.
Of course it has to due with supply vs. demand, all used car prices are based on this, it isn't any different for Ferrari or Porsche. But it's not entirely true that Porsche doesn't restrict supply, they do. They're not like larger car companies that will offer more cars than the demand and then offer huge incentives to buyers but they try not to flood the market with cars that will just sit on dealer lots. So I don't buy that point entirely. Yes, Porsche gets more cars to buyers than Ferrari does but it's not un restricted. But it's more complicated than that.
To address your good point though - Sure if Ferrari produced many more cars the supply would go up and if demand was the same at some point the prices of pre-owned examples would go down. But again it's not as simple as Ferrari saying ' hey, were going to build three time as many 430's this year', they're just not set up to handle that. And there are dozens of reasons why they shouldn't and more importantly COULDNT. The final assembly lines are tiny in scale. The more they manufacturer, the less control they have. There's supply line issues, labor, major dealer issues, especially problems w/ quality control,, hundreds of issues that would have to be dealt with and in the end, the product would definitely suffer. They know this, it's no secret why they've decided to limit production and it's not JUST based on wanting to keep the exclusivity of the brand. They're going to increase production, increase profits, but not at the expense of ruining or diluting everything Ferrari is about. You should see the factory if you haven't already, I was there last July and was amazed by their processes. It's not like GM where they can just build 10 times the amount of cars if the model is selling well. There's very good reasons for them not to over produce and again it's more complicated than just wanting to keep their cars market values in tact,,,,, it's a whole nother subject...
But back to your supply vs. demand. How about price? Price point is a MAJOR component to how much demand there is. And at the price point of a 430 the market is so much smaller than that of the turbo's market but no one talks about that. Fact is there is a much larger # of people that can comfortably afford the turbo vs the 430, which affects the size of the market and the demand. The position that the 8cyl Ferrari wouldn't have as strong re-sale if they made more cars is like me saying : ' if the turbo had to sell at the 430's price, Porsche wouldn't sell anywhere near as many turbo's as they do'. On the other hand IF for some reason Porsche decided to cut the production of turbo's in half of course the car would have stronger re-sale value. It's the if, if,if thing all over just not reality ................
But bottom line I don't have anything against the turbo, if my 996 turbo was a convertible I would have kept it and waited for the 997 turbo cab instead of buying a 997 S Cab and putting down a deposit for a 997 turbo cabriolet but one of the things I wish the turbo had was better depreciation similair to that of the 430, now that would be sweet for a lot of Porsche owners. But unfortunately for us instead of having the money back in OUR pockets from the buying & selling of our Porsche cars the money is in Porsche's pockets in the form of record breaking sales, extremely high margins (the best in the industry in fact), EPS & EBITDA. Because in the end that's what we're talking about here money and in the case of Porsche more money ends up in the company's pockets where in the case of Ferrari if they increased production and pocketed more profits there would be less money put back in the pockets of owners/drivers. I don't understand how anyone would want to see the corporation with more and the individual owners pocket less when it comes time to trade. I mean it's a GOOD thing for 430 owners that they get back their money, right why would any individual owner not want that? On the other hand, fortunately for potential turbo owners that also means many more folks are able to buy a great car vs. stranded for years on the Ferrari 430 wait list. Man, that's got be my longest post, if you've read this far and haven't fallen asleep I give you credit.. Yes, I was a stockbroker.
....IMO, the turbo lag, Prius Turbo/econobox exhaust note and lack of paddleshifters (let alone lack of PDK in '07 
) make 997TT a weakly engineered car in terms of its technologies and driving pleasure (though w/superb, 599-like steering and brakes 
