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Mar 8, 2007 11:07:04 PM
- Leawood911
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- Loc: Kansas, USA , United States
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- Reply to: Adam2S
Re: PSE question
Quote:
Adam2S said:
Which would give the most improvement in sound and/or power then.
X51 headers (or equiv) OR cat bypass pipes??
In my opinion, you will get the biggest improvement in sound from the PSE .
If you are looking for noticeable power gains from just the headers (ANY headers), save your money .
And if you bypass the cats, all you will probably get are CEL's
Mar 9, 2007 9:27:16 PM
- Leawood911
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- Loc: Kansas, USA , United States
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- Reply to: jcs
Re: PSE question
I disagree. The PSE is just engineered sound. If I had that on my car all I would hear is the sound of money I could have kept - might as well play F1 engine sounds from the BOSE stereo. If you want performance and sound get the headers, 100 cell cats, mufflers and chip. This will be a little more than PSE in terms of cost but it's real sound and power - at least good for 25 hp and 30 lbs less weight - no CEL light. I would not remove the CATs completely as this would void your warranty (depending on the Chip you get this may an issue but there are Chips that can switch between stock and other programs that are more aggressive.)
I have been planning on the exhaust mod mention above for the spring. My brother with X-51 on his 997S was left for dead by a 997S with this set-up. I know you purists will condem me especially you they have X51 or PSE since you have rationalized this expense but to me sound without power gain is like buying a stock 997 and putting the S on the trunklid.
As soon as I get the upgrade I will publish BEFORE and AFTER DYNO tests to settle this matter once and for all (anyone want to sponsor my test to speed things up PM me and I will tell you where to send the $$).
Those who think the stock exhaust manifolds are not restrictive (they do not deserve to be called headers) have not spent much time tweaking motors on a dyno. Their love of PSE speaks volumes (gee, listen to that neat sound!)
As far as I know you do not even get new muffles with the PSE. You are paying for a Hole in the system that opens and closes - and adding weight. - Wonder how long that will last without rusting or failing.
I have been planning on the exhaust mod mention above for the spring. My brother with X-51 on his 997S was left for dead by a 997S with this set-up. I know you purists will condem me especially you they have X51 or PSE since you have rationalized this expense but to me sound without power gain is like buying a stock 997 and putting the S on the trunklid.
As soon as I get the upgrade I will publish BEFORE and AFTER DYNO tests to settle this matter once and for all (anyone want to sponsor my test to speed things up PM me and I will tell you where to send the $$).
Those who think the stock exhaust manifolds are not restrictive (they do not deserve to be called headers) have not spent much time tweaking motors on a dyno. Their love of PSE speaks volumes (gee, listen to that neat sound!)
As far as I know you do not even get new muffles with the PSE. You are paying for a Hole in the system that opens and closes - and adding weight. - Wonder how long that will last without rusting or failing.
Mar 10, 2007 12:13:25 AM
- jcs
- Pilot
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- Loc: nj
- Posts: 308, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 3, 2006
- Reply to: Leawood911
Re: PSE question
Quote:
Leawood911 said:
I disagree. The PSE is just engineered sound.
As far as I know you do not even get new muffles with the PSE. You are paying for a Hole in the system that opens and closes - and adding weight. - Wonder how long that will last without rusting or failing.
You most certainly are entitled to your own opinions.
But since , by your own admission, you know nothing about the PSE's , why not educate yourself before offering "hear say" advice to others?
Do you know for a fact that you will not gain any hp from the PSE ? Just because Porsche does not make the same BS claims as some aftermarket muffler peddlers?
I don't know the numbers ( and the hp gains from ANY exhaust will be minimal at best )nor do I care, but would you not agree that if you bypass 2/3 of a muffler it is reasonable to assume that the back pressure is also reduced ?
Personally , I would rather have what you refer to as an "engineered" system than something welded in a garage in China.
But since you obviously trust the aftermarket "experts" more than the Porsche Engineers who spent years perfecting the car , may I suggest you look at the Fabspeed system ?
When you add up their numbers and include their rubber elbow "cold air kit" you will gain over 50hp.
And if you put in the $299 K&N air intake, you will get another 32 hp .That's getting pretty close to a Ruf supercharger already .
All dyno proven of course (so you don't have to solicit funds here to have it done )
If you are concerned about how long the PSE will last, it's covered for 10 years and unlimited milage.
That is also why it's a little heavier.They use heavy gauge st.stl. instead of paper thin sheetmetal, and st.stl. pipe instead of thin wall tubing. No rocket science here .
If you worry that 20 lbs.one way or another will adversely affect your performance , put 3 gallons less gas in your tank.
I wonder what the warranty from someone who peddles mufflers out of his driveway is worth ?
Finally ,regarding the headers,in a normally aspirated engine,there is a relationship between backpressure ,hp and torque. If you reduce the backpressure, you will get a few extra hp at PEAK rpm's, and you will lose torque on the lower end. I don't know how you drive, but I don't spend most of my time at 6000rpm and above.
I hope you are not insulted when I say that I believe that the Porsche Engineers know a little more about which headers to put on their cars than you , or some aftermarket guru.
Just remember that you get what you pay for.
If you are interested in learning more about the 997's , how the systems work , what changes were made from the 996 and why , I have the Porsche Technik manual in PDF.
I'll be happy to e-mail you the file .
Good luck with your mods.
Mar 10, 2007 6:07:35 AM
- Leawood911
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- Loc: Kansas, USA , United States
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- Reply to: jcs
Re: PSE question
jcs-
Don't know why you have such strong opinions about the aftermarket. I appreciate the fact that they try hard to make our ownership experience more enjoyable. Without them I would hate so see how much Porsche would charge for such parts. In terms of Porsche engineers knowing better I would just like to point out that changing the stock exhaust manifold for real headers and altering the computer is exactly what Porsche does as well for the X51 and GT3 - so your point is? Please take a look at the X51 and GT3 headers vs the stock ones and read all the post on this site making comparisons of the two. (You accuse me of not being up to speed?)
Also I would prefer to reduce weight without removing fuel but you amuse me. In fact Porsche reduced the size of the fuel tank to save weight in the 996 and then again in the 997, they even remove spare tires and put plastic rear windows in the GT3RS - ITS ALL ABOUT WEIGHT - NEVER UNDERESTIMATE WEIGHT SAVINGS POTENTIAL. I had no idea a muffler had to be heavy to be good? Besides, I believe the muffler will get you the least HP anyway - but the greates weight savings - so go for a light muffler. Weight is the stock mufflers weakest point - which is again why the Porsche engineers do not use it in the GT3.
You do not convince me that all parts I mentioned - specifically - headers, cats, mufflers and chip are peddeled in garages or made in China. I listed a specific combination of parts and you keep dwelling on light weight, welded mufflers and China (problems with Asians?). I am not certain why less weight is bad or that welding is not common practice with mufflers. I don't want to speculate about the Asian thing - but check on where your 997 transmission is from.
If you have not tried this combination (headers, cats, mufflers and CHIP) without excellent results I would respectfully ask you educate yourself (and also compare the X51 headers to the stock manifolds) prior to slamming every aftermarket performance part producer on the planet (and Fabspeed)
At least find me one post in this forum from someone who has done this specific upgrade (or even just the header for that matter) and has regretted it. All I see are great results which I myself can attest to with my 996 (just CHIP, air intake and mufflers).
I have heard PSE, know how it is made and how much it cost.
For the record, I do believe that with Headers, CAT, mufflers and CHIP one can match the 28 HP X51 claims - for 1/4 the price - and reduce weight - without losing fuel or starving yourself. In this case you DO get what you pay for. With PSE much of what you are paying for is the P. You throw out unreasonable numbers and then shoot them down - what is the point of that? Just 'cause 5 + 5 is not 20 does not mean it not 10.
I do enjoy how you credit PSE for HP Porsche does not claim and throw out all numbers the aftermarket claim to the point of accusing them of costing power. I hope your 'advice' is taken with this logical refernce point in mind.
I do not understand your fury and hate of the aftermarket or is it that you have had a bad experience or do you have a bad case of PSE?
It's not like I am asking you to believe in Global Warming. I bring a positive, peaceful message of hope and cheap HP for fellow Porsche drivers.
Peace and drive right - mostly over 6000RPM.
Don't know why you have such strong opinions about the aftermarket. I appreciate the fact that they try hard to make our ownership experience more enjoyable. Without them I would hate so see how much Porsche would charge for such parts. In terms of Porsche engineers knowing better I would just like to point out that changing the stock exhaust manifold for real headers and altering the computer is exactly what Porsche does as well for the X51 and GT3 - so your point is? Please take a look at the X51 and GT3 headers vs the stock ones and read all the post on this site making comparisons of the two. (You accuse me of not being up to speed?)
Also I would prefer to reduce weight without removing fuel but you amuse me. In fact Porsche reduced the size of the fuel tank to save weight in the 996 and then again in the 997, they even remove spare tires and put plastic rear windows in the GT3RS - ITS ALL ABOUT WEIGHT - NEVER UNDERESTIMATE WEIGHT SAVINGS POTENTIAL. I had no idea a muffler had to be heavy to be good? Besides, I believe the muffler will get you the least HP anyway - but the greates weight savings - so go for a light muffler. Weight is the stock mufflers weakest point - which is again why the Porsche engineers do not use it in the GT3.
You do not convince me that all parts I mentioned - specifically - headers, cats, mufflers and chip are peddeled in garages or made in China. I listed a specific combination of parts and you keep dwelling on light weight, welded mufflers and China (problems with Asians?). I am not certain why less weight is bad or that welding is not common practice with mufflers. I don't want to speculate about the Asian thing - but check on where your 997 transmission is from.
If you have not tried this combination (headers, cats, mufflers and CHIP) without excellent results I would respectfully ask you educate yourself (and also compare the X51 headers to the stock manifolds) prior to slamming every aftermarket performance part producer on the planet (and Fabspeed)
At least find me one post in this forum from someone who has done this specific upgrade (or even just the header for that matter) and has regretted it. All I see are great results which I myself can attest to with my 996 (just CHIP, air intake and mufflers).
I have heard PSE, know how it is made and how much it cost.
For the record, I do believe that with Headers, CAT, mufflers and CHIP one can match the 28 HP X51 claims - for 1/4 the price - and reduce weight - without losing fuel or starving yourself. In this case you DO get what you pay for. With PSE much of what you are paying for is the P. You throw out unreasonable numbers and then shoot them down - what is the point of that? Just 'cause 5 + 5 is not 20 does not mean it not 10.
I do enjoy how you credit PSE for HP Porsche does not claim and throw out all numbers the aftermarket claim to the point of accusing them of costing power. I hope your 'advice' is taken with this logical refernce point in mind.
I do not understand your fury and hate of the aftermarket or is it that you have had a bad experience or do you have a bad case of PSE?
It's not like I am asking you to believe in Global Warming. I bring a positive, peaceful message of hope and cheap HP for fellow Porsche drivers.
Peace and drive right - mostly over 6000RPM.
Mar 10, 2007 3:15:01 PM
- jcs
- Pilot
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- Loc: nj
- Posts: 308, Gallery
- Registered on: Mar 3, 2006
- Reply to: Leawood911
Re: PSE question
Hi, Leawood ,
I do have strong opinions about aftermarket equipment manufacturers.
And the Porsche X-51 is a lot more than just replacing the exhaust and intakes.
It also involves extensive modifications inside the engine .
And all that for 27hp ? When you compare that with the aftermarket claims .... well draw your own conclusions.
If you believe that merely changing the headers and mufflers will give you the same performance,in both hp and torque , for a fraction of the cost, go for it .
I also never said that less weight is bad. I just pointed out to you WHY the PSE's are heavier. You decide what's more important. A little extra weight , or longevity .I believe there is no arguing the fact that something built of a heavier gauge metal,is mounted under the car , exposed to water,salt , hit by rocks and constantly attacked by internal acids in the exhaust, will outlast something made of paper thin sheetmetal, just to save a few pounds.
I don't race . So for me ,I rather have a few extra pounds and the peace of mind that my mufflers won't fall off after a few years.
And yes, I love the sound of the PSE . I like my car to sound like a Porsche .Not some suped up Honda on steroids.
Nor do I want any of the resonance problems reported from others who have installed aftermarket mufflers.
But to each his own . You get what you pay for.
As for global warming, yes I strongly believe in it . It happens every Spring . And living here in the NE , with record cold temps still happening every morning , I'm starting to hope that big Al is right about at least one thing in his entire life. Lol
As I said before, enjoy modding your car . May you get to save a few lbs.(and not just from you wallet )
I do have strong opinions about aftermarket equipment manufacturers.
And the Porsche X-51 is a lot more than just replacing the exhaust and intakes.
It also involves extensive modifications inside the engine .
And all that for 27hp ? When you compare that with the aftermarket claims .... well draw your own conclusions.
If you believe that merely changing the headers and mufflers will give you the same performance,in both hp and torque , for a fraction of the cost, go for it .
I also never said that less weight is bad. I just pointed out to you WHY the PSE's are heavier. You decide what's more important. A little extra weight , or longevity .I believe there is no arguing the fact that something built of a heavier gauge metal,is mounted under the car , exposed to water,salt , hit by rocks and constantly attacked by internal acids in the exhaust, will outlast something made of paper thin sheetmetal, just to save a few pounds.
I don't race . So for me ,I rather have a few extra pounds and the peace of mind that my mufflers won't fall off after a few years.
And yes, I love the sound of the PSE . I like my car to sound like a Porsche .Not some suped up Honda on steroids.
Nor do I want any of the resonance problems reported from others who have installed aftermarket mufflers.
But to each his own . You get what you pay for.
As for global warming, yes I strongly believe in it . It happens every Spring . And living here in the NE , with record cold temps still happening every morning , I'm starting to hope that big Al is right about at least one thing in his entire life. Lol
As I said before, enjoy modding your car . May you get to save a few lbs.(and not just from you wallet )
Re: PSE question
PSE sounds awesome and is a great option if you order your car. For the PSE, the Porsche Technical Information for installation of the PSE states "Engine power and exhaust behavior of the vehicle are not affected." The X51 header is not included with the PSE. This X51 header is quite good but may not be as free flowing as some developed by AWE, Fabspeed, Europipe etc. Any header change will result in minimal HP advantages without other improvements downstream such as mufflers and high-flo cats. So for exhaust upgrades after delivery I believe the aftermarket offers better solutions.
Re: PSE question
Quote:
jcs said:Quote:
Leawood911 said:
I disagree. The PSE is just engineered sound.
As far as I know you do not even get new muffles with the PSE. You are paying for a Hole in the system that opens and closes - and adding weight. - Wonder how long that will last without rusting or failing.
...If you are concerned about how long the PSE will last, it's covered for 10 years and unlimited milage...
While I agree with most of this post, I just found out from 2 seperate dealers this afternoon that there is only a 2 year warranty on the PSE when added after you have already taken delivery of your 997. They tell me that if the car came with it at the time of delivery, it would have a 4 year unlimited mileage warranty. However, if you are adding it, as I would like to, it is considered "techequipment" and carries a 2yr unlimited mileage warranty.
This causes a bit of angst and may prompt some to reconsider.
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