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    997S vs 997

    I was really hoping the 997 would be the best handling 4 seater 997, but now seems like the 997S is like a C4S, not really a performance upgrade.

    So far:
    - the 997S has PASM standard but from what it looks like the PASM is, if you are looking for adecuate sporty handling you will have to go with the optional sport suspension (-20mm) and mechanical LSD in rear on either of then anyway, so no benefit there.

    - the 997S is heavier

    - the 997 has 18" wheels that besides being better looking than the 997S wheels, they mean lighter un-sprung weight (the worst weight of all) and also the tire profile of 18" wheels seem to perform better than 17" and 19".

    - the 997S has no wider track or more aggressive dimentions vs the 997, so no benefit there either.

    - the 997S does have more HP but its ONLY 30HP, so for the price difference b/t them you can probably get the powerkit that will make up the difference, or even better since Porsche powerkits are very underrated in term of HP/torque increase. And maybe you have left for GT3 seats to lighten up the heavier new model and give some decent support.

    - the only thing is the brake that are beefed up in the 997 but that isn't Porsche weak spot so not that important factor compared to the above in this case.

    - oh, and in the 997 you don't get that 997S steering wheel

    My 4-seater GT3 dream of the awaited 997S is going down the drain, but on the other hand a well sport optioned 997 can be OK for a similar price, no?

    Re: 997S vs 997

    My impression is that the new 997 Carrera was perceived as a "poseur car" whereas the Carrera S is more performance orientated. In my eyes the Carrera S is quite a bargain for its price. You get the engine upgrade (I don't think that there will be a powerkit for the Carrera - in this case you are supposed to buy the S), the no-cost choice between PASM or the Sport suspension and the Bi-Xenons. You get the straightline performance of the old GT3 and all the amenities modern sportscars buyers want (?).
    Obviously Porsche decided not to participate in the Hp-war and rather turned their focus of attention towards suspension improvement in order to create a performance gains.
    Real sportscar enthusiasts might praise this decision which seeks to stress sportscar characteristics, but I fear that the average Porsche customer (businessman) won't appreciate or even notice these developments. In straight-line performance there's virtually no difference between the 996 and the base 997. The Carrera S might probably be to stiff, to uncomfortable for those and Porsche might lose a fair amount of customers to BMW (new M3 400hp) etc.. .

    I think it was a good idea to divide the Carrera line into a normal and a more sporty version. Unfortunately they failed to give the Carrera a considerable engine upgrade (350hp) in order to be competitive.

    This raises in my eyes question who is actually supposed to buy the base Carrera? The Carrera S is price wise more interesting (options inclusive) and offers more performance for real sportscar driver, the Carrera just isn't competitive in comparison with its new rivals. Due to its improved suspension it might be faster on the track, but honestly I don't believe that the average Porsche customer will ever explore these limits. To him only brand image and straight-line perormance counts.

    P.S. I also prefer the looks of the base Carrera

    RG TL

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    This raises in my eyes question who is actually supposed to buy the base Carrera?



    ... people who skipped the 996 generation because they didn't like the headlights.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    This may sound funny and some people may not have realised it yet but the new 911 carrera (997C2) is now in the performance class or level of what the boxster was in its day, it wil handle great but will be too underpowered to compete. I can't figure out why Porsche is following this strategy but, the industrys has not only advanced in handling but also in engine performance, the reason I buy Porsche is for the handling and driving feel inspite of the underpowering, however other people don't and Porsche has fallen back in the engine performance and its previos competitors have moved on in this aspect, for example, the age-old competitor to the 911, the M3, will soon get 400HP and the 997C2 will now compete with the future M1, yes the ///M version of the ugly 1-series little hatchback. And the new Audi RS3, and the SLK55AMG, and the japanese WRC's, etc. Like I said I can't believe Porsche is following this risky road, why don't they bother AT ALL about the HP, if the rest of the industry can do it why can't they? but its bound to reflect on 997 sales I'm sure. And though they will probably keep customers like me if they get the handling and feel right, HP sells out there and for their price range they are really getting handicapped. You can't do everything with handling, street or track, you need power too.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Carlos - I agree - and for another example, the new Corvette C6 Z06 will have 500hp for less money than the 997 (non-S)

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Great example Grant, and it not like the Z06 can't handle, the current one is right up with the GT3s and 996TT at the track with its 400HP. And even the BASE C6 now get 400HP. And so does the Maserati coupe, and so will the Aston Martin AMV8, and likely the next c-class and CLK AMG's, and so on.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    it wil handle great but will be too underpowered to compete.



    Carlos, you never know they may offer a 30 or 40 HP Powerkit that costs like 20k. They have to make money somehow .. Why more power for free when you can charge good ampount of money for it .

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    it wil handle great but will be too underpowered to compete.



    Carlos, you never know they may offer a 30 or 40 HP Powerkit that costs like 20k. They have to make money somehow .. Why more power for free when you can charge good ampount of money for it .



    you read my mind. You want the handling? you get a 911, but the corresponding HP is an extra option $$$

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Carlos, didn't you think that Porsche may want to keep their clients by not DEVALUATING hardly the 996 increasing the power of the 997?

    If it gets 350 the basic and 380 the S, it will ruin all the process of the 996. Starting from the GT3 and going through the normal 996 towards 4S and Turbo....! No one will want them because Porsche will have the 997 with much more power. Fortunatly it is not the case. I think they went for the right strategy either than risking to loose a lot of clients who would've find themselfs with unresaleable 996s at a normal price.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    Carlos, you never know they may offer a 30 or 40 HP Powerkit that costs like 20k. They have to make money somehow .. Why more power for free when you can charge good ampount of money for it .



    I don't think that there will be a powerkit for the Carrera C2, it just wouldn't make sense. With the Carrera S it's a different case, but I think we have to wait until the 997 GT3 is released otherwise the S might come into the 996 Gt3 range.

    Still I'm wondering who is going to buy the base Carrera, if one can get a more poweful S for 10k more including many necessary options.

    RG TL

    Re: 997S vs 997

    agreed, captain.


    IMO porsche did it right. personally as a GT3 owner i'd be piXXed as hell if there would have been a EUR 85,000 carrera S with 380 HP now! (and yes, i know that the GT3 is not all about horsepower ). and with regards to all the 996 out there, porsche could not risk to ruin their resale value or street credibility by raising the 997's HP too much.

    if you are not focussed on being the fastest on the autobahn (and many porsche buyers arent, they just need their carrera for a daily drive or for some posing or for relaxed weekend pleasure), the carrera is perfect.

    and if you are, the carrera "S" is for you. with it's torquey 400 Nm engine and 355 HP will be more than enough to deal with the AMG SLK's out there.

    perfect product strategy from PAG in my opinion.

    what's missing though is some decent auto shifting system. where's the double clutch?

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Let me add.
    Porsche had always the lowest power through its competitors. We all agree. But it is a FACT that they have sold so MANY 996 that the market is full and for this reasons depreciations are getting higher than the normal.
    Therefore I don't think Porsche needs to compete with the power.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    They are living from heritage and image, something Corvette's and BMW's among other competitors don't have.
    Regarding people minds, Porsche is the one that knows it better, and this sells even more than big HP numbers.
    The golden crest in the wood feeds the ego/image/status for the majority of Porsche owners in a way others don't, again, this sells and sells and sells, this virus is inside almost every human being, it's part of it's nature, part of the developed society.

    That said, I still think they should rise significantly the HP in all range.

    J.Seven

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    what's missing though is some decent auto shifting system. where's the double clutch?



    Not only that, but the torque converter Tiptronic that they offer again still has only 5 gears still! not that I care since I will always get the manual, even with the DSG option I think, but those wanting an auto on their 911in the times of 6-speed autos and 6-7-speed sequentials should be dissapointed.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    what's missing though is some decent auto shifting system. where's the double clutch?



    Not only that, but the torque converter Tiptronic that they offer again still has only 5 gears still! not that I care since I will always get the manual, even with the DSG option I think, but those wanting an auto on their 911in the times of 6-speed autos and 6-7-speed sequentials should be dissapointed.



    this was the only rumoured option (DSG) to perhaps have pulled me out of my current 996 c2 (tip) into a 997. whew, good thing they haven't mentioned it yet, the depreciation would probably give me a heart attack

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    Captain Bady said:
    Carlos, didn't you think that Porsche may want to keep their clients by not DEVALUATING hardly the 996 increasing the power of the 997?



    Thats part of the game, its called evolution and development. Every 6 or so years a new model comes out with along many other things, improved engine performance than the previous model. When I bought my 996 it had 300HP then shortly after a facelift to 320HP and now the new model should increase accordingly just like the rest of the industry. And my 996 will gradually fall back as time goes by, and I accept that. If you buy a 911 close to the end of its lifespan you accept than when the new model comes out it will have increased HP, otherwise evolution will be halted, and the 911 will lag behind what it once was. Is the 998 supposed to have the same HP approx than the 997 as well so as not to devaluate the 997? we would be driving around 130HP 996s if that were the case engine output increase with each new model is the only way the car can survive, and a norm in the industry. If you buy a 996 towards the end of its lifespan you can't expect Porsche to maintain the performance so as not to hurt resale, that is part of what you accept whe you buy the car, like I did with my 996. This is verfy dangerous for the 911 since its creating a big weak point in the 911 that other makers can exploit by making "similar" cars with adecuate HP, also 996 owners may not upgrade since the 997 will not be as appealing since not that much is changed in performance, let not forget that previous 996 owners are the most important market for the 997 and Porsche should incentivate "recycling" of their models by their cutomers to maintain the company, and following this road will just make things worse and worse as time go by.

    HP increases within the same model is more questionalble though since they can offer that HP since the beginning and its only done for marketing-sales reasons.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    I am with Carlos on this. The 997 should have been the 997 S powerwise and the 997 S should have had something like 380. Every generation needs an improvement.

    Having said that Porsche does not need to participate in the power race with BMW and Audi and the like to make an impact (see GT3RS vs CS), but their cars are not getting any lighter either so power is the only way to help keep them competitive. This way they are only creating a lot of direct competition for them.

    I will continue to look for a nice GT3 for now even though it has funny lights and a ugly wing...

    TEE

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    Tim said:
    Quote:
    Carlos, you never know they may offer a 30 or 40 HP Powerkit that costs like 20k. They have to make money somehow .. Why more power for free when you can charge good ampount of money for it .



    I don't think that there will be a powerkit for the Carrera C2, it just wouldn't make sense. With the Carrera S it's a different case, but I think we have to wait until the 997 GT3 is released otherwise the S might come into the 996 Gt3 range.

    Still I'm wondering who is going to buy the base Carrera, if one can get a more poweful S for 10k more including many necessary options.

    RG TL



    With Porsche indicating "a newly developed 3.8 engine", I'm sure the HP for the GT cars will be very high in the Turbo, GT2, and GT3.....

    Why?


    When was the last time that even the top 95-percentile 911-stock driver ran out of power? The 911 is a complete package with an emphasis in fun, flexible, go-cart driving characteristics.

    Power will go up model-year-over-model-year, as it has always have, but should Porsche succumb to the tunnel-visioned power pressure and do something drastic (like, God forbid, install a V8 in the rear) I can see a return to the label "widow maker" when the next door idiot crashes and kills himself having surpassed the car's grip limits, the same way the same idiots killed themselves in the 70s when the car was a nervous over-steer, and they did not take the time to learn how to drive them.

    If one wants a 400+HP 911, there's already one - it's called 911 Turbo.

    Re: Why?

    Quote:
    Carlos, didn't you think that Porsche may want to keep their clients by not DEVALUATING hardly the 996 increasing the power of the 997?

    If it gets 350 the basic and 380 the S, it will ruin all the process of the 996. Starting from the GT3 and going through the normal 996 towards 4S and Turbo....! No one will want them because Porsche will have the 997 with much more power. Fortunatly it is not the case. I think they went for the right strategy either than risking to loose a lot of clients who would've find themselfs with unresaleable 996s at a normal price.





    I think Capt. Bady has hit the nail on the head. Porsche needs to make the remaining 996s attractive enough to sell without giving them away. At the same time they need the 1st generation buyers to jump at the NEW model immediately.

    Re: Why?

    Now this I can't agree with:

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    When was the last time that even the top 95-percentile 911-stock driver ran out of power?



    I take it you don't do much high speed driving

    Quote:
    ADias said:Power will go up model-year-over-model-year, as it has always have, but should Porsche succumb to the tunnel-visioned power pressure and do something drastic (like, God forbid, install a V8 in the rear)



    Nobody is asking Porsche to join the HP wars and forget the rest, only to increase engine output in the new model accordindly, just like Porsche has already been doing done since 1963 (except for the 911SC when Furmann detuned the following 911 model to get rid of it, and push the 928). Who can be against that?

    Quote:
    ADias said:I can see a return to the label "widow maker" when the next door idiot crashes and kills himself having surpassed the car's grip limits, the same way the same idiots killed themselves in the 70s when the car was a nervous over-steer, and they did not take the time to learn how to drive them.



    Yeah, like 350HP for the 997 and 380HP for the 997S is going to get everybody killed maybe they should stop selling the turbo altogether since its too dangerous, not to mention the GT2/GT3 or CGT thats hardly an argument for Porsche to stop improving engine performance.

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    If one wants a 400+HP 911, there's already one - it's called 911 Turbo.



    yeah, for 60,000 Euro more, great ... its not about overall HP, its about adecuate HP output for its class.

    Re: Why?

    Getting back to 997 vs 997S... according to Autocar the 997S with the sport suspsension package laps the ring in 7:59!! (Walter Rohl of course) so with only 355HP means the chasis/suspesnsion handling- setup has to be incredible, thats just what I was looking for

    now I know why it doesn't get 380HP, otherwise the still current 996GT3 wouldn't look that fast with an equally powerfull & priced but four seater, PSM equipped more versatile 911 trailing just one second behind at the ring

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Carlos, why don't you just wait for the first road test.
    I'll get to drive a 997 S after July 17th but we'll try hard to get one for a testdrive even earlier (if Porsche is generous enough...we promise to bring it back in one piece ).

    The 997 S is only 30 kg heavier than the 997 Carrera.
    Weight on the 997 S is 1425 kg, not quite a 996 C4S value.
    This is the weight with two drivers and full tank (it is practically the same weight as on the 996 C2).

    I fell in love with the 997 S the first time I saw it a while ago. And my "love" for this car has grown since I got the pictures and infos last week. Believe me guys, my fingers BURNED to post the pictures and infos...

    What I love about the 997 S? The design is absolutely everything I always wanted from the 996. Even the interior is nice, finally Porsche decided to add a 330 kph speedo and to make everything look more classy. Some people think the interior is too Audi like but it is just a modern interpretation of the 996 interior with some 993 elements maybe.
    I also like the fact that the 997 S isn't as "flashy" as a GT3 with the rear wing. And I also fell in love with the 19'' rims, I really wonder why some of you don't seem to like them. It is a very technical and aggressive design, even better than the beloved Carrera rim design if you ask me.
    The double tip exhaust looks also very classy, finally Porsche stopped those funny looking Tequipment double-tips which look like aftermarket and not Porsche-like at all. Apparently people really liked them but I HATED them.
    The 997 will become a classic, like the 993. I'm not so sure about the 996 anymore because of the front lights and the cheap looking interior.
    The Cayenne was a first step to new quality heights and the 997 is a step further. If the quality is as good as our sources state, I see a bright future for the 997. The 997 Cab presentation is next in January 2005 (Detroit Autoshow maybe) and will be available next spring.
    And please stop believing this crap you read on some internet sites or even in car magazines about the 998 and especially that there won't be a 997 Turbo. There will be one, it will be everything most 996 Turbo wished it to be and if I don't get a 997 S, I'll get a 997 Turbo. Amen.

    Re: Why?

    There is one thing i am not sure about(mostly because I probably can't think straight because i was up all night)....is the 20mm lower sport suspension available on a car at the same time as PASM, or can you only have one or the other?

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The 997 will become a classic, like the 993. I'm not so sure about the 996 anymore because of the front lights and the cheap looking interior.





    That attitude will make lots of 996 owners happy.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    if I don't get a 997 S, I'll get a 997 Turbo.



    997 S in addition to the Cayenne not in place of it, right?

    One more question, may have been asked and answered sorry.

    So the 997S doesn't have a wider body, same body as the 997 ?

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Same body for both models.

    Sport suspension -20mm is not possible with PASM.

    Re: 997S vs 997

    Quote:
    CF said:
    Same body for both models.

    Sport suspension -20mm is not possible with PASM.



    Thanks

    Re: Why?

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:

    I take it you don't do much high speed driving



    Are you kidding? I've driven my current car at 150+MPH and that is where power matters. Top speed is not IMO what makes a 911 shine - it's the quick overtaking, the fast turn exit, etc. in daily driving and for that a 996 w/ 300HP is plenty, and more importantly it has the right torque.

    Quote:
    [
    Nobody is asking Porsche to join the HP wars and forget the rest, only to increase engine output in the new model accordindly, just like Porsche has already been doing done since 1963 (except for the 911SC when Furmann detuned the following 911 model to get rid of it, and push the 928). Who can be against that?




    There will be limits on displacement and max power on a flat 6 engine. I'd rather stay with a flat 6 than go to a V8, but, again, I've been a Porsche nut for more years than I'm willing to tell . RC's reply to you addresses the car balance - existing power and chassis/suspension improvements cleans the competition - and that is where the game is.

    I apologize... but you seem to really lust for a Turbo.

    Re: Why?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:

    I take it you don't do much high speed driving



    Are you kidding? I've driven my current car at 150+MPH and that is where power matters. Top speed is not IMO what makes a 911 shine - it's the quick overtaking, the fast turn exit, etc. in daily driving and for that a 996 w/ 300HP is plenty, and more importantly it has the right torque.

    Quote:
    [
    Nobody is asking Porsche to join the HP wars and forget the rest, only to increase engine output in the new model accordindly, just like Porsche has already been doing done since 1963 (except for the 911SC when Furmann detuned the following 911 model to get rid of it, and push the 928). Who can be against that?




    There will be limits on displacement and max power on a flat 6 engine. I'd rather stay with a flat 6 than go to a V8, but, again, I've been a Porsche nut for more years than I'm willing to tell . RC's reply to you addresses the car balance - existing power and chassis/suspension improvements cleans the competition - and that is where the game is.

    I apologize... but you seem to really lust for a Turbo.



    I guess its a matter of use, I regularly drive my 996 at 180km/h averages in the highway and I find myself b/w 5th and 6th gear at WOT constantly with 300HP falling clearly short. Everything else is there, the brakes, the high speed stability and handling, the accurate steering, etc but 300HP is hardly enough for my use. However HP alone will not make me turn to another maker since its the "everything else" that matters more and I can't find in another car. So you are right about lusting the turbo, but just like RC, I will have to settle for the 997S if I don't make the Turbo pricetag (most probable in my case), so adequate HP output for its pricetag and class is not much to ask for, though if its not there I will settle anyway if it delivers the handling which by the 7:59 ring lap time with the sport suspension according to Autocar, it has to since it has only 355HP.

     
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