Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Somehow I don't think the introduction of just Direct Injection engines is going to be enough!

    FT Source Link


    Extract:

    Porsche's chief executive on Friday warned of an impending business war between Germany on one side and France and Italy when he said plans by the European Commission to limit carbon dioxide emissions were an attack on German luxury carmakers.

    The outspoken comments by Wendelin Wiedeking at the sports carmaker's annual meeting underline the nervousness of German carmakers, all of which are a long way above the proposed limits and are much more threatened than the likes of France's Renault and Peugeot and Italy's Fiat.

    "It is an attack on BMW, Mercedes, Audi and ourselves ... This is a business war in Europe. We will fight," Mr Wiedeking told shareholders.

    All four companies produce large luxury cars compared with the smaller ones of Renault, Peugeot and Fiat. In an extreme case, industry executives believe strict limits would threaten the existence of luxury carmakers.

    The European Commission says it is committed to cutting vehicle emissions to 120 grammes per kilometre by 2012, although it has failed to agree a common line on how to achieve this. Porsche's average emissions are more than double this target.

    Brussels will call for legislation to force carmakers to improve the fuel efficiency of fleets, but it may decide to spread the pain by including binding targets for the fuel and tyre industry and highlighting the need for better traffic management.

    Because of its small size - it sells 96,000 cars a year compared with more than 5m at Volkswagen - Porsche is currently exempt from the voluntary targets.

    The debate within the European Commission over whether to impose limits has led to a split between the environment commissioner and his industry colleague, who comes from Germany and who has tried to support the German carmakers. It has also led to a split in the German government.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Did he happen to mention in this press release anything about the next round of much needed 550 HP grocery -getter cars from the 4 German makes

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    One day or another, they, we, will have to consider the fact that our passion pollutes twice or three times as much as a regular car. Porsche should be ahead of the crowd on this subject, as they're supposed to have huge amounts of cash available and the best engineers. What the heck are they doing, pushing the power up to 550hps? It's against intelligence! Porsche likes his cars to be perceived as special cars for special people, but I think that if they don't change drastically they will one day become cars for idiots, I mean environnement unconscious people

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    oliver said:
    One day or another, they, we, will have to consider the fact that our passion pollutes twice or three times as much as a regular car. Porsche should be ahead of the crowd on this subject, as they're supposed to have huge amounts of cash available and the best engineers. What the heck are they doing, pushing the power up to 550hps? It's against intelligence! Porsche likes his cars to be perceived as special cars for special people, but I think that if they don't change drastically they will one day become cars for idiots, I mean environnement unconscious people



    The HP increases are the result of the extra weight needed to meet continously escalating safety standards.

    And if you drive a 964 or a 993 it likely produces two to three times the pollution of of a 997 that has far more power.

    Most cars sit for 80% of their lives. If you are going to look at emissions etc.. you have to look at the entire process it takes to regulate and build cars.

    I have no doubt that the EU offices create way more pollution from their daily work, building materials, power consumption, the paper they print on, office expendables and travels than Porsche does.

    A comprehensive A to Z eco and emissions survey of the EU offices and employees is needed. They might be shocked as to how much pollution governments themselves create on all levels.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    If you look at the bigger picture cars only pollute a very small amount. Industry and energy production causes the majority of pollution. I'm sure China creates about 30% of the worlds total co2 emissions.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Maybe they should start by banning all diesel engines then. They pollute more apparently as NY and CA state still don't want them.

    Then they should look at old diesel truck or buses...

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    I'm not saying that car pollution is the iggest threat, I just think that we'll have to consider all sides of pollution. As an architect, we have to consider pollution produced by the entire process of building, from the location, the size of the building, its orientation, products used for building it aso...
    I'm just saying that luxury car makers can't just "ignore" their responsability, as any other producer has.
    (by the way, I drive an 986, the 964 is for track use).
    My point is that when a car producer presents itself as intelligent, ahead of the crowd, I believe they have a huge opportunity or responsability to show the path. Because a path has to be found, anyhow... I'd love to drive a Porsche that would burn less oil than others, because, regarding the entire process, that would mean it's one of the most environnement friendly car, as they have such a long cycle of life

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Hello Boxsterboy,

    I partly agree: we're all trying to find other reponsibles. We are unfortunately all responsible, for our little amount of pollution, period. We won't resolve things by bying new buses or forbid diesel engines, you realize it don't you?

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    If I were Mr Wiedeking, I'd lobby for this rule to be changed from brand level to group level.

    Porsche would only have to complete the VW purchase, and it (along with Audi) would benefit from VW's volume and low emissions. BMW and/or Mercedes-Benz would be wiped out.

    A masterful plan, indeed.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    What car can you get with 120g/km ?
    I mean a proper 4 seater where you can fetch 4 people and their luggage?

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Yes what cars are 120g/km?
    http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/car_co2_emissions.html?page=1&mancode=[mancode]
    997s is 290g/km
    My wifes Maseratti is 400g/km

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    The U.N. report says almost a fifth of global warming emissions come from livestock.

    So whats next? Catalytic converters for cows?

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Isn't it grossly unfair to punish someone who does only 4000km at 277g/km compared to someone doing 40000km at 120g/km? Surely annual mileage matters in calculating the total environmental impact. Oh, sorry, I forgot, since when did the truth ever get in the way of the European Commission's path?

    Seriously, this is really bad news. Since it cannot be retrospective, I think it will cushion the used car prices of vehicles over 120g/km registered before the date when this cruel law comes into effect.

    @Groom, agreed This is murder for small producers. But AFAIK it's already been stated that this will be an average 'by manufacturer' not 'by group of companies'. Porsche and VW would actually have to merge rather than merely share common ownership.

    Why isn't Angela Merkel speaking up?? This will kill German carmakers in one feel swoop. Wake up Angela!

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    60% of the porsches ever built still exist and are still being driven. It means that they are not recycled just like 'other' cars. That also saves energy, water etc.
    Should be part of the equation.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    boxsterboy said:
    Yes what cars are 120g/km?
    ]http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/car_co2_emissions.html?page=1&mancode=[mancode]
    997s is 290g/km
    My wifes Maseratti is 400g/km



    Thanks for the link. Yeah, for 120g you get a small city car. Now maybe somebody needs a reality check???

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Fortunately EU bureaucrats move slowly so it could be many years before this is implemented.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Here the ' greens' are collecting signatures in order to have a referendum to ban all car having more then 250 g

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The U.N. report says almost a fifth of global warming emissions come from livestock.

    So whats next? Catalytic converters for cows?



    We have to become vegetarians!

    By the way, do you have a breakdown of where the other 80% comes from?

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    This is bad news for all of us Porsche owners.
    Resale value will go down for sure.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    German said:
    This is bad news for all of us Porsche owners.
    Resale value will go down for sure.


    What are you talking about? The resale value of current models is going to be much better! It has happened whenever emission regulations got in the way of horsepower, and it will happen again.

    Which 911 generation is more valuable on the used car market: the 993 or the 996?

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    German - no, resale value will go way up.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:

    By the way, do you have a breakdown of where the other 80% comes from?



    In Germany (study as per 2000) cars contributed 12%, trucks 6% - and these percentages do not include "natural" CO2 emissions such as farting cows (or farting P-car drivers for that matter)
    Hence I'm sure we'll save the world if within the EU average car related emissions would be reduced by 25% (from 160g/km to 120g/km)
    If you ask me it's more about taxes than anything else - we'll still drive sportscars in 10 years from now, but we'll pay a hefty extra tax

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Earth's existence in the spectrum of time is just a " blink " of the eye . As our sun evolves in it's old age to become a red giant , a big part of the solar system will be consumed . So ultimately, it doesn't matter , does it ? This discussion may have already have occurred on thousands of other " internets" many millions or billions of years ago in other parts of the universe !Have a nice day !:p

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Thanks for the info. I'm shure that the regulations will come in the next few years. I think it's time to sell Porsche shares.

    Do they have a strategy for the next years regarding lower emissions? I don't think so. Maybe Toyota should show Porsche again (after they told Porsche in the '90 what's lean production is) how develop low emission vehicles. Porsche is really too small to make such an R&D step alone.
    a new strategy...

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    jesse said:
    Thanks for the info. I'm shure that the regulations will come in the next few years. I think it's time to sell Porsche shares.

    Do they have a strategy for the next years regarding lower emissions? I don't think so. Maybe Toyota should show Porsche again (after they told Porsche in the '90 what's lean production is) how develop low emission vehicles. Porsche is really too small to make such an R&D step alone.
    a new strategy...



    Do not fear.

    Porsche has a strategic alliance with Honda just for that reason. A low emissions hybrid Cayenne will be the first result of that and likely to be seen in MY2009. The next all new "Boxster" model might be a hybrid surpise also.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Gee maybe I was wrong in assuming this but... I thought you all get to VOTE in Europe.

    Do you need W to come and do a little regime change so that you can VOTE these crazy tree-huggers out of office and get back to buisness? These fools will endanger your jobs and your very lives if you let them.

    Guess what, to meet these standards cars will need to weigh less which = less safety and more deaths on the highway (when the big Diesel truck rolls over you).

    Peace - VOTE (to end the EU)

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Leawood911, man, unfortunately we can't directly vote the European Commission out of office. It is a bureaucracy appointed AFAIK by the various EU Member States.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    The reason why those tree-huggers hold so much power in Europe is because many people actually vote for them.
    Between genuinely idealistic tree-huggers and genuinely envious people, there is no shortage of people wanting to stick it to Mercedes or Porsche drivers here.



    Regarding safety, you've got it backwards. Weight is actually the problem, not the solution. It degrades handling and braking, and increases damages to all victims.
    Besides, don't believe for a second that you're safer in a Suburban than in a Mini when you get hit by an 18-wheeler. Bob's Mack truck LAUGHS at the Suburban.
    The Renault Clio has proven that one of the safest cars worldwide can be one of the smallest - and the most successful. If everyone was driving one, casualties would be reduced 5-fold at least.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    I think Wiedeking is right about being unfairly targeted. In the grand scheme of things the pollution is not that substantial. Plus, who's fault is it that we're still burning fossil fules anyway with no other realistic alternative? IMO targeting the luxury German manufacturers is a political move that appeases the masses.

    How about we all learn to get along better instead of blowing up countries and having them ignite oil fields in retaliation among other things? That'd slow down emissions and the end of civilization a bit.

    Re: FT - Porsche warns of emissions war

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Maybe they should start by banning all diesel engines then. They pollute more apparently as NY and CA state still don't want them.

    Then they should look at old diesel truck or buses...



    The uk government loves them as they emit less c02 and cause more lung diseases!

    Very true diesels are deadly they emit well known cancer causing chemicals, they emit very fine particals which gets very deep into the lungs and once it's there it may take years for the body to get rid of it or it may never get rid of it at all.

    C02 is the most natural compound, and has been on the planet as long as the plants have, no c02 no plants!

    It's all bull cutting c02 emissions, it's not c02 which is killing me it's the rest of the toxic chemicals which they arn't doing anything about!

    If we have a c02 problem then shouldn't the governments be replacing books for computers?

    What about planting more trees to compensate for extra c02 in the air?

    No they'd rather spend money on bandaging a wound instead of using stitches.

    It's all a money making scam, it's what you don't know which is keeping you down.

    Basicly if your car emits so much c02 they will tax for it, but it doesnt stop climate change or anything else!

    it's not an emissions war, it's a bank ballence war!

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    777237 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    441702 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    262780 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    260956 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85224 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5571 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    880656 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    815959 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    390917 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    390032 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    372197 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    368919 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289168 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261297 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240161 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    230369 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221188 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169224 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141010 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    117485 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    108584 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84154 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75069 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    53642 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25033 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21170 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19491 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16582 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13697 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11244 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.