Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: How about these....

    Jumping into this really late... 930S, I feel for your father. I'll also echo what others have said about going back to the dealer.

    FWIW, I think PorscheNA and the Dealer are failing to stand behind the product. I think this plug&play crap with the water-cooled engines is a bandaid for an inferior product (save the gt3/turbo)

    A quick story. Back in '98 I bought a new GTI vr6. Drove it about 700mi and it developed a loud knock in the engine. Turned out the crank bearings were toast.
    - Dealer wanted to fix the engine.
    - I told them I wouldn't be satisfied with anything but a new car. My baby was tainted.
    - They cared about my business, and saw me as a likely future customer. Hell, I was a "kid" at the time, but I stood tough w/the business manager.
    - They gave me a new car
    - I've purchased 5 VWs and Audis from the dealer since.

    Porsche is expecting their customers to grab their ankles on these wet sump disposable powerplants after they've paid a premium for the badge and its implied high level of durability.

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    You honestly expect Porsche to toll the lease payments while your car is in the shop?



    Incredulity agreed.

    I thought the car was purchased?

    Hell, if it's just a lease, why not get a new engine and just get on with enjoying the car? Drive the crap out of it! At the end of the lease, you turn it in and walk away. . .

    The story keeps changing and changing . . .

    Re: How about these....

    Yes..that does change things somewhat! ...if the car is leased why do you care if it has a new engine, how long do you plan to keep it for anyway? That doesn't change the fact that porsche doesn't seem to be really trying that hard to retain you as a customer for future business...

    An old saying goes: One good experience and you will tell a friend...one bad experience and you will tell 6 friends..

    Re: How about these....

    So I take it from above post that if one lease's a car then that one just deem's it as a hire car . In other words everyone that lease's does'nt really give a to*s about there vehicle .

    So , imo , I can still see the point as wanting the car in its original status - ie , a replacement....

    Edit..And of course the re-sale is obsolete....

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    throt said:
    So I take it from above post that if one lease's a car then that one just deem's it as a hire car . In other words everyone that lease's does'nt really give a to*s about there vehicle .

    So , imo , I can still see the point as wanting the car in its original status - ie , a replacement....

    Edit..And of course the re-sale is obsolete....



    I'm leasing my 997, and I completely understand what you're getting at Throt (I take great pride in keeping my car in top shape), but when looking at this situation, the fact that the car is leased vs purchased does have a significant impact. Furthermore, we were originally led to believe that the car was purchased as an investment. Then that it was just purchased for the enjoyment, reward and satisfaction of having a Porsche, and now, we finally discover that it is leased. A lease is purchasing an experience, not a product, simply by virtue of the fact that one does not purchase ownership. In this case, what's purchased is the experience of a 997T4S for a given amount of time. The reality is that that experience is now tarnished by the mechanical problems, but I say get on with the experience of driving that car - having the engine replaced will not meaningfully impact upon that experience, except psychologically . . . Well there's a psychological difference between leasing a Porsche and owning one too . . . I say get on with it.

    If I was in this situation, I'd be very comforted by the fact that the car is a lease and not a purchase. Discovering a lemon is one of the great advantages of leasing, but you can't always have your cake and eat it too . . .

    Perhaps if I didn't feel like I had been mislead from the beginning, I might be more sympathetic . . .

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Quote:
    throt said:
    So I take it from above post that if one lease's a car then that one just deem's it as a hire car . In other words everyone that lease's does'nt really give a to*s about there vehicle .

    So , imo , I can still see the point as wanting the car in its original status - ie , a replacement....

    Edit..And of course the re-sale is obsolete....



    I'm leasing my 997, and I completely understand what you're getting at Throt (I take great pride in keeping my car in top shape), but when looking at this situation, the fact that the car is leased vs purchased does have a significant impact. Furthermore, we were originally led to believe that the car was purchased as an investment. Then that it was just purchased for the enjoyment, reward and satisfaction of having a Porsche, and now, we finally discover that it is leased. A lease is purchasing an experience, not a product, simply by virtue of the fact that one does not purchase ownership. In this case, what's purchased is the experience of a 997T4S for a given amount of time. The reality is that that experience is now tarnished by the mechanical problems, but I say get on with the experience of driving that car - having the engine replaced will not meaningfully impact upon that experience, except psychologically . . . Well there's a psychological difference between leasing a Porsche and owning one too . . . I say get on with it.

    If I was in this situation, I'd be very comforted by the fact that the car is a lease and not a purchase. Discovering a lemon is one of the great advantages of leasing, but you can't always have your cake and eat it too . . .

    Perhaps if I didn't feel like I had been mislead from the beginning, I might be more sympathetic . . .



    I can see your point , imagine buying the car outright with cash and then having all this grief ..

    You want a replacement lease vehicle?

    A leaking engine on a leased vehicle that doesn't belong to you? You've missed out a vital piece of information when stating your problem.

    Re: You want a replacement lease vehicle?

    Okay guys, sorry about the confusion. I hear more bits of this story every day which may be the reason for all the changes. I thought the car was purchased by my father, but in fact is leased with the intention to be bought in the end. The reason for this lease is it is more beneficial economically. Now, I dont know everything with the contract and deal because thats my dad's information to know, and not mine 100%. I appologize for the confusion and the changes, but I am trying to talk for two people here and its tough, and I know something new every day.

    Lease or purchase, no brand new car should be dumped on a customer with a major problem from the factory.

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    throt said:
    In other words everyone that lease's does'nt really give a to*s about there vehicle .




    Wooah...throt, you have totally misunderstood me! I leased a 993 C4 and I treated it like it was my child. It was well run in, allowed to warm up, regularily serviced, driven (reasonably) well...however because I wasn't trying to sell the car on to anybody in the end I couldn't give a crap if the whole car exploded and needed replacing (other than the obvious concerns re:safety of course) because at the end of the day; porsche are taking it back off me at an agreed price at an agreed time.

    So I know now that his dad is going to buy the targa at the end of the lease...but that information wasn't available at the time. Nonetheless, I won't make any smart remarks re: your obvious mind reading skills (lol was that a sly one!?)

    Re: How about these....

    Frayed "Anyway, I see nobody took my recommendation on wine, osso buco, some good lovin' and hard driving.

    The hell with ya. More wine for me."

    On the wine we can agree.

    Osso buco? Just follow what they do to a young calf before they slaughter it and tell me the dish is worth the torture the animal endures.

    BTW, people often lease with a view toward ownership.

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    BTW, people often lease with a view toward ownership.



    Exactly the case here

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    Quote:
    throt said:
    In other words everyone that lease's does'nt really give a to*s about there vehicle .




    Wooah...throt, you have totally misunderstood me! I leased a 993 C4 and I treated it like it was my child. It was well run in, allowed to warm up, regularily serviced, driven (reasonably) well...however because I wasn't trying to sell the car on to anybody in the end I couldn't give a crap if the whole car exploded and needed replacing (other than the obvious concerns re:safety of course) because at the end of the day; porsche are taking it back off me at an agreed price at an agreed time.

    So I know now that his dad is going to buy the targa at the end of the lease...but that information wasn't available at the time. Nonetheless, I won't make any smart remarks re: your obvious mind reading skills (lol was that a sly one!?)



    I was not having a pop at you , even though the post may have read that way..

    Should have read ""the above post's"" , not just your's

    Re: How about these....

    Dont worry! I just wouldn't want renn-teamers thinking I would miss-treat a porsche...

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    nberry said:Osso buco? Just follow what they do to a young calf before they slaughter it and tell me the dish is worth the torture the animal endures.



    Yes. :burp:

    Re: How about these....

    Since my last post, I am happy to say that Leawood911 and I have resolved our differences amicably. He is indeed a gentleman

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Since my last post, I am happy to say that Leawood911 and I have resolved our differences amicably. He is indeed a gentleman



    Cheers, friends for life

    Re: How about these....

    Cheers!


    Re: How about these....

    nberry said: BTW, people often lease with a view toward ownership.



    Ownership behavior is not based on how you pick up your car. A lease is just a different way of owning a car. If you pay CASH for a car then, yes you "own" it. When you finance a car and buy it the bank or finance company has a lean on the car and you really do not "own" it. Their right are so strong that their lean is respected on sale before you get your money. Leasing is just another way to own a car based on the rules and laws of each country. Cost of money and other considerations make a differance in how a car is bought. In the end we should respect our cars. The dealership and car maker should respect the products they make. A few years ago BMW had some cars damaged in transport and fixed and repainted them without telling the new customers. The courts did not support the lack of honesty on the part of the car maker. A high end car is not as valuable on resale if it has had a paint job or body work...or if it has a replaced engine in a brand new car. To some buyers it does not matter, but a car manufacture should respect those buyers that is does matter.

    Game over Nick

    ... Well, well, well. What have we here?

    I found this old thread about a guy (mrcohanian) who leased a 997 which sadly needed a replacement engine after only 2 months driving:

    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=997&Number=77222&page=113&fpart=all

    Our cherished friend Nick had the following to say:

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    This really is tragic but the best you can hope for is a new engine. I agree with others that these things happen and to demand a new car in my opinion is unreasonable.

    I have my issues with Porsche but in a consumer setting Porsche is obligated to replace the engine and no more. My concern would be to what extent they try to pass the failure of the engine on your driving i.e. did you follow break in instructions et cetera?



    Nick, I can anticipate what your 'justification' might be for your blatant U-turn. Yes, I know Porsche930S claims that his car started leaking right from the start whereas mrcohanian's fault manifested itself at 4000 miles. However, both Porsche930S's and mrcohanian's problems are latent defects from the time of manufacture that passed factory quality control/PDIs etc. In Porsche930S's case, the problem surfaced immediately after customer delivery whereas mrcohanian's latent defect manifested itself some 2 months later. The 2 situations are not materially different.

    You may have briefly enjoyed mocking my opinion as tantamount to "bending over and grabbing my ankles" but you thought exactly the same thing as me on this previous occasion!! At least Nick I was consistent in my opinion.

    I believe the appropriate phrase, dear friend, is that I have you by the balls.

    Re: Game over Nick

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    I have you by the balls.



    Lol nice find easy..i doubt that he still reads this thread anymore..

    Re: Game over Nick

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    I have you by the balls.



    Lol nice find easy..i doubt that he still reads this thread anymore..



    Someone should PM him so he can have his balls back. After all, he owns a ferrari so he surely use his quite often.

    Re: Game over Nick

    Well, owning a Ferrari and being able to *drive* one are two different things.

    Anyway, funny stuff. Nick's jackassery at its finest. I guess he failed his own law school exam. LOL.

    Re: Game over Nick

    Come on guys... I have to stand up for Nick - even I would be happy with just an engine after 2 months and 4000 miles.
    This is Apples and Oranges (although easy_ has done an excellent job doing some digging - ) - IMHO all Nick has proven is that he is open to reason and that, like most who commented on this thread, the low miles mattered the most in swaying the decision to ask for a new car.

    Re: Game over Nick

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    the low miles mattered the most in swaying the decision to ask for a new car.



    Riiiiightttt ...... , and thats leased or payed for....

    Re: How about these....

    Quote:
    stork said:
    A lease is just a different way of owning a car. ... To some buyers it does not matter, but a car manufacture should respect those buyers that is does matter.




    I agree with your last statement, but not your first.

    When you lease, you are renting. The particluar contract may have a 'rent to own' option it in so that a predetermined buyout is part of the deal, but you can always walk away, and that's the key difference: you can always walk away.

    That probably makes leasing more attractive than buying with financing, though you pay a premium. Leasing leaves options open and provides freedom. Ownership provides a certain pride.

    In my opinion, it does influence how this particular case is handled. So of course, 930S is going to argue that their ultimate plan was to buy the car ...

    Re: How about these....

    Leasing a car for 3 years is no different to renting an apartment for 3 years. While you are there, sure, you keep the place clean and tidy and you enjoy some good times there, but the day your lease expires, you clean the place out, emptying all your stuff into the U-Haul trailer/removal van and the place looks soulless once more (like the day you first walked in).

    I've rented apartments before and all I will say is that I was never under any misconception as to who the owner/landlord was. It's their property and it's their problem if the roof needs fixing.

    This is no different. The tenant/lessee has no grounds for telling the owner/landlord/lessor how and to what standard repairs should be carried out.

    Re: Game over Nick

    My dear fellow, I anticipated what you wrote. This is certainly not apples and oranges IMHO. This is not even just apples and apples. We're talking the same kind of apples!!

    mrcohanian's engine problem and Porsche930S's problem are both due to defective manufacturing (be it parts, labour etc). All that differs is WHEN their respective problems surfaced. Porsche930S's latent (hidden) defect surfaced immediately after delivery. mrcohanian's latent defect surfaced after 2 months and 4000 miles of driving. That doesn't mean that mrcohanian's defect didn't exist before the 4000 miles had been driven. His defect had been there all along but had merely not surfaced yet. As such, both defects were there all along. They merely manifested themselves 2 months apart. IMO their situations are not materially different in law. mrcohanian's and Porsche930S's remedies ought to be the same as a result.

    Of course Nick must have read my most recent posts on this thread but has chosen not to reply. I presume this is simply because even he doesn't know how to dig himself out of this one!

    Oh well, I've been holding Nick's balls for a couple of days now. Does he want them back?

    Re: Game over Nick

    Perhaps leasing a car is different in the US. In the US when you lease the car you still have the right to own it (buy-out the lease) at the end of the term for a pre-arranged amount. No one can come along and take your car at the end of the lease if you choose to keep it. In your appartment example I doubt that the tennant has the right, after the lease is up, to purchase the appartment. If so, and this was his/her intention, then not only would he/she take greater care of the property but he/she also would take greater care to ensure the landlord maintained the property during the lease.

    Part Two - you sent two replies before I could answer the first - I still believe it is much more reasonable to expect a new replacement car for a car with 200 miles on it vs. any car with more than even 1000 miles on it. I guess we into a 'when life begins for a Porsche' debate. To me it's still apples and oranges since 200 miles <> 4000 miles. Certainly a car with 4000 miles has depreciated and has been used much more than a car with 200 miles.
    We have to draw the line somewhere. Would you agree that 200 <> 20000 miles? Do we draw the line just prior to the warranty period expiring. I do not think so.
    Your point that the fault originated at the factor in both cases is good but it can be argued that all faults originate at the factory and are merely expressed over time. Don't forget that marriage is the main cause of divorce.

    Speaking of marriage. I think Nick is busy shagging his wife - did you check her out?

    I know my statements are a poor substitute for his sharp logic so I hope he wraps it up and returns.

    To recap -
    1) When you lease a car you have the right of first refusal - not like renting an appartment
    2) 200 miles <> 4000 miles. Others in the thread have made this distinction many times already.

    Cheers -

    Re: Game over Nick

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    To recap -
    1) When you lease a car you have the right of first refusal - not like renting an appartment




    I guess it depends on the jurisdiction - for example in Germany there are various types of lease agreements (not all of them comprising the right of first refusal). In general the choice of the specific type of contract is driven by tax aspects (if it's a corporate car). As a private lease does not provide any tax advantages (in Germany), IMO the only advantage (vs. bank financing) is that you don't have to bother with the resale of the car (maybe worthwile if you swap cars every two years or so). Of course this amenity is not for free....

    Re: Game over Nick

    I just read easy riders post. Sorry for the delay.

    The difference my legal friend is the time and miles of ownership. In the prior case, there was over two months of ownership and substantially more miles.

    In this case there was two days and less than 200 miles of ownership. Huge difference. Certainly even British lawyers can make a case for car replacement in the latter case.

    Effective advocacy is the art of distinguishing and using facts favorable toward your client. Most if not all jurors would be offended by a product that fails within the first two days of ownership. None would want to keep it except possibly obsequious Porsche owners.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    778585 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    442138 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    263006 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    261299 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85542 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5762 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    880975 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    816889 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    391255 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    390677 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    372895 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    369158 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289473 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261550 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240418 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    230849 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221354 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169543 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141293 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    117809 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    108822 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84349 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75213 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    53873 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25235 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21190 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19528 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16600 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13831 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11272 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.