Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: PNA made a hash of it - Page1

Jan 18, 2007 8:55:42 PM

hellgelb: Senior; Loc: Ecosse , United Kingdom; Posts: 659, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2005

-20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Couple of interesting views on the sports chassis option in this month's GT Purely Porsche. I bet a whole lot more people would order this if the demo cars were more widely available - instead of being scared off by the potential of buying an unliveably firm car.

Stuart Gallacher:
"The ride quality? Think 993: that tight, secure, solid feeling that provides aa perfect balance between comfort and ultimate control"

Chris Harris:
"Suspension movement is reduced, the damping is firmer - but that shouldn't be confused with a severe reduction in comfort, because the car is stll supple."

And Harris on the combination of PCCBs and the -20mm option:
"They certainly make an invaluable contribution... with the sports chassis option, because I've driven a similar car on steel brakes and it was five percent harsher over UK roads: a small but perceptible difference that tipped the car from being every day comfortable to everyday bearable".

Next
Threads

Jan 18, 2007 9:31:58 PM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: hellgelb

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

I wonder why we can't get that in the states

Next
Threads

Jan 18, 2007 10:22:16 PM

SimonWall: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Quote:
rhino said:
I wonder why we can't get that in the states

What can't you get in the States? -20mm suspension?

Next
Threads

Jan 18, 2007 11:08:22 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: SimonWall

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Quote:
SimonWall said:
Quote:
rhino said:
I wonder why we can't get that in the states

What can't you get in the States? -20mm suspension?

Yes, we get neither the -20mm suspension nor the option to have LSD (which comes with -20mm suspension)

Next
Threads

Jan 18, 2007 11:37:15 PM

Jim_in_Iowa: Pilot; Loc: US; Posts: 336, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2005; Reply to: rhino

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

The proffered excuse is that it rides too low to meet the bumper height requirement (which is the hugest joke possible, given the plethora of trucks and SUVs). The response could be, so put springs on it that make the ride height the same as PASM in sport mode.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 12:14:45 AM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: Jim_in_Iowa

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Quote:
Jim_in_Iowa said:
The proffered excuse is that it rides too low to meet the bumper height requirement (which is the hugest joke possible, given the plethora of trucks and SUVs). The response could be, so put springs on it that make the ride height the same as PASM in sport mode.

It's called 20mm since the car is 20mm lower than normal. Once you 'add' springs it's no longer 20mm lower.

It's all about 'low'. As for LSD, it's illegal in the US and I can't believe people can drive on that stuff in Europe.

But seriously Porsche - give us LSD, we can handle LSD - nobody needs to know.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 12:27:44 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Leawood911

PNA made a hash of it

They could have had -20mm option that much was Crystal clear, but they made a hash of the federal approval system. They fiddled with suspension joints for too long (I guess a basic lack of Speed) until the Feds went "Bong! Time out". Sadly no Meth to their madness. What a bunch of roaches!

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 2:27:09 AM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Porsche has long had a history of US v. ROW suspension. The -20 option the 997 falls into this split. When the 997 came out, I drove it, was impressed and immediately told my dealer that I want to order a -20mm car. They tried and could get no committment on the option in the US.

I wrote PCNA Peter Schwarzenbegeweiser, explaining my history with Porsche and my keen interest (dealbreaker) in the -20mm. No response.

I then bought a 996 GT3.

But the 997 still called. So later bought a US spec open-diff car. Awesome car, but in need of an LSD, in my opinion.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 3:10:36 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Yes, the LSD is what I would want the most

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 8:38:30 AM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: rhino

Re: PNA made a hash of it

I love my -20mm :-)
Just to tease you...
LSD on tight corners on the wet is just awesome :-)

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 12:55:58 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: PNA made a hash of it

If anyone asks me what do I like the most in the 997... I'd say the "-20mm suspension/rear LSD" without a doubt, the handling ability and feel they managed to achieve with it is simply amazing.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 3:55:48 PM

atomic80: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Bellevue, WA USA , United States; Posts: 2596, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2006; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Maybe Porsche has made a secret agreement with all aftermarket tuners in the US. Don't offer the -20 suspension drop here and get a percentage of the profits from the shops that sell those springs to us unsuspecting saps. Just kidding..

Do they even offer the 20mm drop for the Turbo in Europe?

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 4:54:51 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: atomic80

Re: PNA made a hash of it

No, unfortunately, -20mm sports suspension with rear LSD is only available:

A) as a no-cost option on:

1) 997 C2S coupe
2) 997 C4S coupe

or, B) as a cost option on:

3) 997 C2 coupe provided it has 19 inch wheels
4) 997 C4 coupe provided it has 19 inch wheels

From my memory, I seem to recall (pls correct me if I'm mistaken), it is also necessary also to have manual transmission i.e. no -20mm for Tiptronic S cars.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 5:06:00 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: atomic80

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
atomic80 said:
Maybe Porsche has made a secret agreement with all aftermarket tuners in the US. Don't offer the -20 suspension drop here and get a percentage of the profits from the shops that sell those springs to us unsuspecting saps. Just kidding..

It would be fine if that's all that was needed. But adding those lower springs to PASM (no other option in US for 997S) without the proper non-PASM dampers, swaybars and transmission with LSD is useless (or almost useless). You basically can't get there from here

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 5:12:25 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

My thoughts on -20mm sports suspension have been mentioned before in other threads. I completely agree with what Carlos from Spain has said. It is utterly phenomenal.

The handling, responsiveness to steering input, feedback, steering feel etc are unbelievable.

IMO, it is the best kept secret in the 997 Carrera line up. Whilst PASM is good, offering a more comfortable set up well suited to the needs of people more used to a Mercedes Benz or BMW, for the sportier driver, PASM Normal is too soft and PASM Sport is very, very firm (not too firm though) but IMO is too 'bouncy' and feels detached from the road at the same time.

BTW, I don't agree with GT Purely Porsche about the -20mm with PCCB being "perfectly comfortable" while taking away PCCBs makes the ride on -20mm with red caliper brakes "perfectly bearable".

I have a lot of respect for Chris Harris but he is IMO 'finding' distinctions which do not exist. IMO both the -20mm with red calipers and -20mm with PCCBs are perfectly acceptable for daily use and both are comfortable enough for those who like a firm sporty ride.

I just wish more people in the EU and the RoW would take the leap of faith needed to choose P17 -20mm. It is nothing short of a revelation.

The only difference is that with PCCBs, there is less unsprung weight so handling is improved. That doesn't automatically mean improved ride 'comfort'.

The bottom line is that IMO, as sergini once put it, PASM is for a GT ride whereas -20mm is for a sporty ride.

Body roll becomes almost non-existent. The car sits a full 1cm lower. It looks more aggressive. When you drive it, it feels like a sports car should feel.

You guys in the US and Canada who aren't even offered this possibility, I feel so very sorry for you.

BTW, don't believe the rumours about hearing the locking diff when you reverse etc. I've never experienced any of that. Just take it really slow over the speed bumps!

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 5:42:19 PM

jamesaug: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 414, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Why aren't they allowed to sell LSD in the USA? Does that mean no american cars have LSDs as standard?

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 5:45:37 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: jamesaug

Re: PNA made a hash of it

I don't know the reasons I'm afraid. Some of the US guys here should know the details hopefully...anyone?

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 6:06:47 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: jamesaug

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
jamesaug said:
Why aren't they allowed to sell LSD in the USA? Does that mean no american cars have LSDs as standard?

Lots of cars have LSD standard in the USA - Corvette Z06, Pontiac Solstice, Mazda MX5, BMW M models and Porsche GT models for starters...

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 7:41:41 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: jamesaug

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
jamesaug said:
Why aren't they allowed to sell LSD in the USA? Does that mean no american cars have LSDs as standard?

I think that remark did not relate to mechanical LSD, but the chemical version

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 7:49:40 PM

Ian C: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Am I missing something?The -20mm suspension is not available in the USA because of the lowered ride height but you CAN get the GT3 which is 30mm lower than standard????

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 8:09:13 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I don't know the reasons I'm afraid. Some of the US guys here should know the details hopefully...anyone?

I think the above post was in jest. As in, LSD being a controlled substance.

Anyway, as to the folks comments above on the -20mm option, it's interesting to note that the GT3 and GT3 RS has PASM, rather than the non active damping of the -20mm.

I personally think that as the PASM technology progresses, it will continue to offer outstanding body control that is tough if not impossible to duplicate by non active, conventional damping.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 8:13:56 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14167, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
frayed said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I don't know the reasons I'm afraid. Some of the US guys here should know the details hopefully...anyone?

I think the above post was in jest. As in, LSD being a controlled substance.

Anyway, as to the folks comments above on the -20mm option, it's interesting to note that the GT3 and GT3 RS has PASM, rather than the non active damping of the -20mm.

I personally think that as the PASM technology progresses, it will continue to offer outstanding body control that is tough if not impossible to duplicate by non active, conventional damping.

The PASM on the GT3 does indeed feel much better then the PASM on the Carrera. You don't get the feeling that you are cut off from the road.
I am sure PASM on the Carrera will improve on the next version and that it will become the best choice, but for the moment, on the Carrera, PASM is not satisfying, unless you are looking for comfort

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 8:40:01 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
frayed said:I think the above post was in jest. As in, LSD being a controlled substance.

Oh, I missed that. Anyways, it's a whole lot cheaper and easier to find the chemical version in the USA than on a non-GT Porsche these days

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 8:57:48 PM

hellgelb: Senior; Loc: Ecosse , United Kingdom; Posts: 659, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
frayed said:
I personally think that as the PASM technology progresses, it will continue to offer outstanding body control that is tough if not impossible to duplicate by non active, conventional damping.

I think the signs seem to be that the later iterations (GT3, Turbo & Targa) are improved over the Carrera.
Particularly wrt to what appears to be a far more useable 'Sport' setting on the latter two.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 9:51:29 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: hellgelb

Re: PNA made a hash of it

I agree; seems the improvements to the active damping provide a better setup than in the 997S. I owned a 997S w/PASM and liked it well enough, but thought the Sport setting was unusable. I have high hopes for PASM in my upcoming GT3. If for some reason it doesn't pass muster, I'll defang it and get a set of Motons in there.

I agree that the -20 solution is the best for those demanding a 997S that falls more on the sporting side than comfort. And, it's the only way you can get the LSD in those cars. But the use of PASM on the GT cars signals that Porsche is going to stick with it, and the early adopters of those cars are very positive about it.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 10:04:01 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
frayed said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I don't know the reasons I'm afraid. Some of the US guys here should know the details hopefully...anyone?

I think the above post was in jest. As in, LSD being a controlled substance.

I know

But I chose to grasp the more serious issue of why Porsche doesn't allow a LSD-equipped 997 Carrera variant to be available in the US market?

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 10:57:51 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

My conspiracy theory is this:

Porsche knew that the RS could not be brought into the US with all the goodies: carbon fiber seats, rollbar, lexan, etc.

Accordingly, to differentiate it from the GT3, the GT3 came with a mandatory sunroof, and of course, no clubsport option.

To further maintain model delineation, the 997S came with mandatory PASM; no LSD and -20mm.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Seriously, I got no answer from PCNA, and certainly it is not a ride height issue b/c the GT3 is slammed.

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 11:17:14 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: frayed

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Since PASM is computer controlled there should be some way to 'tune' the system with software (which is likely what the factory did - has anyone heard of hardware changes?). Improvements in the software (new settings and aftermarket settings) should be applicable to older PASM cars.

Like the GT3 with PASM, it is possible to lower the ride height of the US 997S or 997PASM cars. Champion sells springs for PASM cars to lower the car and Bilstein is coming up with a PSS9 version for PASM. With software updates and proper ride height the PASM cars may have a bright future yet.

I agree with Frayed that active suspensions are the way to go in the future. If F1 baned it it must be good

Now LSDifferential is a different story - there is no good excuse I can see for it not being in the US. It can't be a PASM limitation since the GT3 has it. My wifes G35 4 door sedan (6speed

) has it!

Can you order a non GT3 997 in Europe (or anywhere) with PASM and LSD

ifferential?

Next
Threads

Jan 19, 2007 11:43:54 PM

The Groom: Expert; Loc: EU; Posts: 1779, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Quote:
Leawood911 said:
Can you order a non GT3 997 in Europe (or anywhere) with PASM and LSD ifferential?

No, you can't. It's either PASM, or sport chassis+LSD.

Which implies that if you want the LSD, you have to order a coupé (the sport chassis is too stiff for the cab and targa).

Next
Threads

Jan 20, 2007 2:02:23 AM

mb996: Newbie; Loc: usa; Posts: 5, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: PNA made a hash of it

The PSS9 for PASM is already available - I'd love to get a review from someone that installed it. It's very tempting...

Top
Threads

Board	Subject	Last post	Views	Replies
Porsche	SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II)	4/16/24 3:13 PM watt	755611	1797
Porsche	Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos)	4/7/24 11:48 AM Boxster Coupe GTS	431734	565
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021)	5/12/23 12:11 PM W8MM	258899	288
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022	3/12/24 8:28 AM DJM48	255975	323
Porsche	The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche	1/30/24 9:18 AM RC	79960	45
Porsche	OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift	3/15/24 1:23 PM CGX car nut	5266	50
Porsche	The moment I've been waiting for...	2/1/24 7:01 PM Pilot	869026	1364
Porsche	992 GT3	7/23/23 7:01 PM Grant	803144	3868
Porsche	Welcome to the new Taycan Forum!	2/10/24 4:43 PM nberry	384636	1526
Porsche	GT4RS	4/16/24 7:02 PM Enmanuel	382772	1447
Others	Tesla 2 the new thread	12/13/23 2:48 PM CGX car nut	365962	2401
Porsche	Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design	7/3/23 12:30 PM Porker	364538	797
Ferrari	Ferrari 812 Superfast	4/21/23 8:09 AM the-missile	286437	550
Porsche	Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour	4/11/24 12:32 PM Ferdie	284662	668
Porsche	Collected my 997 GTS today	10/19/23 7:06 PM CGX car nut	258312	812
Lambo	Huracán EVO STO	7/30/23 6:59 PM mcdelaug	235901	346
Lotus	Lotus Emira	6/25/23 2:53 PM Enmanuel	223584	101
Others	Corvette C8	10/16/23 3:24 PM Enmanuel	219034	488
Others	Gordon Murray - T.50	11/22/23 10:27 AM mcdelaug	166125	387
Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	138145	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	115048	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	107171	685
Others	Valkyrie final design?	4/28/23 2:45 AM Rossi	99159	219
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	83452	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	74864	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	52917	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	24585	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	20897	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19144	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16411	120

Crown

Forum - Thread

-20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

Re: -20mm sports chassis : best kept secret ?

PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Re: PNA made a hash of it

Forum

Boards