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    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    People already regard the Z06 as a real sports car. Problem is that its 505HP motor barely competes with a car in a lesser category, the GT3RS.

    The Z06 is in the GT2's category, and if the Z06 thought it had a hard time against the GT3RS, its going to have a tougher time with the GT2.

    Again, the Z06 is a nice car. But the RS is a better car.



    I agree.I think some people fail to realize that the Corvette has twice as much displacement and plastic as the GT3 and it still got beaten.

    Would be like a S2000 beating the GT3 around a track.Never happened even with semi slicks LOL.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    I love both cars, and I think the GT3-RS is an absolute beautiful car. The fact that it is as fast as it is with the weight and power, is a true testament to Porsche and their years of experience developing the 911.

    BUT...

    At the end of the day...PRICE ABSOLUTELY MATTERS! And when buying a potent track/sports car, I can't justify spending another $35k+ for a few seconds out of the factory. Especially knowing a set of tires, will make up for the difference. For me, the extra cash is just too valuable to spend for such a small gain. If I were a multi-millionaire, maybe things would be different.

    But the most IMPORTANT factor to me, is the ability to adjust/modify the vehicle from the factory. I think all cars (even Porsche) require some modification to really work well at high speed.

    The nice thing about the Z06, that 96% of people don't even realize is the adjustability the factory has built into the car for enthusiasts. For $0 dollars and with nothing more than a wrench in hand, you can adjust ride height, corner weight the car, adujust rake, and add up to -2.5 degrees of negative camber. Also, you can change out spring rates simply by removing a leaf spring, vs. purchasing 4 expensive coil-overs.

    I feel the Z06 (out of the factory) has very mild/street based allignments and suspension settings compared to a factory RS. The RS comes with much more camber from the factory vs the Z06. So, with some knowledge and wrenching, I can easily add a significant improvement over the stock/street setting that the factory gives the car.

    So, with some toe out in the front, a little toe in the rear, and about -.2.0 camber, lower the car about 1/2 to 3/4 inch, cornerweight the car on a set of scales, and even leave the stock run flats on, you could improve the Z06's lap times SIGNIFICANTLY without spending a dime.

    Also, for a mere $5000, I can have one of many Corvette tuners put on a set of headers, cam, and intake, easily bringing the car's power up to 600+hp, which will end the discussion alone. On an RS $5000 would get you a header pipe (10hp).

    These are EASY basics for many track enthusiasts who have discovered the modular plaform of the Z06. With $15k-20k spent with knowledge, I could easily make this car as fast or faster than just about any street based track car in the world. I feel the chassis in it's currently configuration is only performing 70% at best.

    So for the same price of the GT3, I could easily build a car that would hang with/beat a CGT ENZO.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    ...On an RS $5000 would get you a header pipe (10hp).



    LOL! Ridiculous isn't it?

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    So for the same price of the GT3, I could easily build a car that would hang with/beat a CGT ENZO.



    I would pay to see a track video of that.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    I feel the Z06 (out of the factory) has very mild/street based allignments and suspension settings compared to a factory RS. The RS comes with much more camber from the factory vs the Z06. So, with some knowledge and wrenching, I can easily add a significant improvement over the stock/street setting that the factory gives the car.

    So, with some toe out in the front, a little toe in the rear, and about -.2.0 camber, lower the car about 1/2 to 3/4 inch, cornerweight the car on a set of scales, and even leave the stock run flats on, you could improve the Z06's lap times SIGNIFICANTLY without spending a dime.





    You should probably go work for GM, since you know how to extract more out of the Z06 than the team of GM Engineers were able to when they posted their Ring time.

    Again, the facts are the facts. A car with DOUBLE the displacement of the GT3RS, a car that has at least 250lb/ft more toruqe and 85 more HP and one that was modified by it's own engineers at a closed down, private session couldn't beat a stock GT3RS's time at a public, and damp Ring session.

    This is hilarious.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    I can have one of many Corvette tuners put on a set of headers, cam, and intake, easily bringing the car's power up to 600+hp, which will end the discussion alone.




    The only thing you are proving is that a Z06 needs 185more HP to beat a car with 415HP.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Hey hey hey.... Stop cheating.... Horsepower is an unfair advantage you know...

    Whatever happened to run what ya brung?

    In all of this, I failed to realize that for some, it isn't who crosses the finish line first, it's who does it the most elegantly, minimalistically (not a word), i.e. with the least displacement and horsepower...

    Nobody wants to touch the fact we're comparing a car set up for street driving, vs. a car produced for homologation and set up and shoed for track. Every time that gets pointed out, it's labeled "an excuse".... Huh??



    There's more than one recipe for winning races. Carroll Shelby demonstrated that fact to the world back in the 60's by tossing big loud 427 side-oilers into aluminum Cobras, and driving by everything, sideways at times.... I suppose there were those who considered him "crude" and his machines "undignified race cars with station wagon motors"... Whatever... He kicked ass with 'em, and that's racing.

    Funny how on a 911 board, it's "o.k." to be anti-establishment by making a flawed rear-engine design somehow work, and work miraculously well. But once you introduce OTHER methods for making speed around a track, the mood shifts and the noses tip toward the sky, and a car that costs almost double that of another is lauded as superior because it runs similar lap times with less power... Who cares what the power is, it's how fast you go for the money you blow in racing, PERIOD. On the street, there's alot more things to consider.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    I can have one of many Corvette tuners put on a set of headers, cam, and intake, easily bringing the car's power up to 600+hp, which will end the discussion alone.




    The only thing you are proving is that a Z06 needs 185more HP to beat a car with 415HP.



    RR4, you wouldn't know a fact if it married your sister. This is bench racing at it's finest/dreariest. You keep referencing a pre-production sort-out day. You keep fluffing past suitable tires (which is huge on a road course) and street vs. track set-up (you claim those to be "excuses", which is nothing more than YOUR EXCUSE not to debate those matters).

    These are cars, not football teams. I've tried to approach this whole scenario with objectivity, as I don't find myself married to any one make or brand.

    But all I see is that a much cheaper STREET CAR is keeping pace with a purpose-built-for-race-homologation car. I don't care who has more power. That's simply not relevant. Bottom-line is you can go just as fast around the ring, on run-flat street tires, for $50-60K LESS, if you can stomach a cheaper interior and questionable style and a different overall feel.

    Where in that you find some "victory" for Porsche, I just can't see, and I love my flippin Porsche...

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z06

    I'd take a C2S over a Z06 in a second... can you magine how fast it would take me to choose the RS over the Z06!!!

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    I don't care if the Z06 cost 70k less. I could never imagine myself saying I want a Z06. Sure it's fast but so what. U can buy an Mit. Evo and put a bunch of crap in it and it will go fast. I have test driven the Z06 and it doesn't even compare to my C2S in terms of the driving experience and definitely not even the appeal. I wouldn't even compare to my GT3, let alone a RS. I think most on this forum, though we rare porsche bias would take the RS even if you can get a Z06 and 70K in you pocket. The RS is probaly one of the most desired cars in the world, and I bet you wouldn't say that about the Z06.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    But all I see is that a much cheaper STREET CAR is keeping pace with a purpose-built-for-race-homologation car. I don't care who has more power. That's simply not relevant.



    I can name you quite a few expensive cars that are slower than other much cheaper cars.The price tag was never proportional to the pace of a car.If you want an example there's a car that is 4 seconds quicker than a CGT around a track for the price of the GT3 RS...
    And in case you didn't know plastic is cheaper than metalls.

    You don't care who has more power but somehow you seem to care a lot about the tires.If GM doesn't give semi slicks as an option it's probably because they're very happy with the Goodyears.Do you honestly think that when the Corvette was developed,no one even considered using the best possible tires? It is like someone said the cheapest way to improve lap times.Now,I think that among the 1000 engineers that worked on the Corvette,there was atleast one person who had this brilliant idea.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    I give up. Mercy.

    Plastic is cheaper than metals....

    The Z06 should come with track tires....

    It's motor is big....

    blah blah blah...

    I'll tell you what I see.


    I see some folks that no matter whether the Corvette was made from Carbon Fiber like the Carrera GT, made 600 h.p. from a hi-tech V6, had an interior trimmed in the finest materials, and had the driving dynamics of the finest racing machines....

    What you're really saying is that you'd never "lower yourself" to drive something with a bow-tie on it.

    Me, I see cars both as assembled machines, and individual parts and pieces. I don't see the nameplate, and when it comes to quality of materials and execution, it's a function of price, otherwise I'm guilty of being ripped-off.

    I'm not trading my 997S on a Z06, no way. But I see no valid "dig" on the Z06, for what it offers for what they ask, other than some sort of weird envy or disdain for "crude american" machines.

    If you remove the skins from BOTH cars, I think you'd be impressed with the engineering and execution of both...

    Buy what you want, that was never the point... I was only trying to address flawed arguments, and I'm sorry I tried...

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    I figure it this way, good rule of thumb which makes the automotive industry easy to comprehend:


    GM (made anywhere) means POS

    BMW and Porsche (those made in Europe) means quality.


    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    But all I see is that a much cheaper STREET CAR is keeping pace with a purpose-built-for-race-homologation car. I don't care who has more power. That's simply not relevant.


    If GM doesn't give semi slicks as an option it's probably because they're very happy with the Goodyears. Do you honestly think that when the Corvette was developed, no one even considered using the best possible tires?



    It's because the Z06 is a street car and only a small percentage will ever see a track. The run-flats are for the driver who doesn't want to be stranded and doesn't mind that their car is only almost as fast as the GT3 RS.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    I understand completely where you're coming from 69bossnine . . . and, believe it or not, I tend to agree with most of what you wrote. Don't give up! I'm enjoying the debate . . . again.


    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    I figure it this way, good rule of thumb which makes the automotive industry easy to comprehend:


    GM (made anywhere) means POS

    BMW and Porsche (those made in Europe) means quality.





    You get what you pay for is a fairer overview... Besides, isn't there pretty much constant complaining on this forum about one malady or another, leaking engines, rattles, schizoid hood releases, wacky PCM's??

    There's always at least one thread going strong where somebody's getting bent...

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    I love both cars, and I think the GT3-RS is an absolute beautiful car. The fact that it is as fast as it is with the weight and power, is a true testament to Porsche and their years of experience developing the 911.

    BUT...

    At the end of the day...PRICE ABSOLUTELY MATTERS! And when buying a potent track/sports car, I can't justify spending another $35k+ for a few seconds out of the factory. Especially knowing a set of tires, will make up for the difference. For me, the extra cash is just too valuable to spend for such a small gain. If I were a multi-millionaire, maybe things would be different.

    But the most IMPORTANT factor to me, is the ability to adjust/modify the vehicle from the factory. I think all cars (even Porsche) require some modification to really work well at high speed.

    The nice thing about the Z06, that 96% of people don't even realize is the adjustability the factory has built into the car for enthusiasts. For $0 dollars and with nothing more than a wrench in hand, you can adjust ride height, corner weight the car, adujust rake, and add up to -2.5 degrees of negative camber. Also, you can change out spring rates simply by removing a leaf spring, vs. purchasing 4 expensive coil-overs.

    I feel the Z06 (out of the factory) has very mild/street based allignments and suspension settings compared to a factory RS. The RS comes with much more camber from the factory vs the Z06. So, with some knowledge and wrenching, I can easily add a significant improvement over the stock/street setting that the factory gives the car.

    So, with some toe out in the front, a little toe in the rear, and about -.2.0 camber, lower the car about 1/2 to 3/4 inch, cornerweight the car on a set of scales, and even leave the stock run flats on, you could improve the Z06's lap times SIGNIFICANTLY without spending a dime.

    Also, for a mere $5000, I can have one of many Corvette tuners put on a set of headers, cam, and intake, easily bringing the car's power up to 600+hp, which will end the discussion alone. On an RS $5000 would get you a header pipe (10hp).

    These are EASY basics for many track enthusiasts who have discovered the modular plaform of the Z06. With $15k-20k spent with knowledge, I could easily make this car as fast or faster than just about any street based track car in the world. I feel the chassis in it's currently configuration is only performing 70% at best.

    So for the same price of the GT3, I could easily build a car that would hang with/beat a CGT ENZO.



    I love my C2Scab and would not trade it for a ZO6 but bossnine and Jersey are right. The true accomplishment here is by GM. The RS is my favorite Porsche but it is a street car made for the track. if it has to fight off a 70grand ZO6 with a 100 less H.P. and 70K less $$$ it's Porsches fault.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    Weasel said:
    I understand completely where you're coming from 69bossnine . . . and, believe it or not, I tend to agree with most of what you wrote. Don't give up! I'm enjoying the debate . . . again.





    I'm pretty much off the debate, and just calling everyone pinky-wagging snobs at this point LOL!!!!

    When logic and reason fails miserably, aim for the knees and steal the girlfriend (if she's cute...)...

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    tHE 70k extra should get you more than prestige and a feeling that tickles your B@lls every time you drive. It should get you dominance

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    rhino said:
    tHE 70k extra should get you more than prestige and a feeling that tickles your [Email]B@lls[/Email] every time you drive. It should get you dominance



    You win the "man of few words swings biggest stick" award.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Had to help out a fellow Floridian. aside from the fact that your 100% correct

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    I feel the Z06 (out of the factory) has very mild/street based allignments and suspension settings compared to a factory RS. The RS comes with much more camber from the factory vs the Z06. So, with some knowledge and wrenching, I can easily add a significant improvement over the stock/street setting that the factory gives the car.

    So, with some toe out in the front, a little toe in the rear, and about -.2.0 camber, lower the car about 1/2 to 3/4 inch, cornerweight the car on a set of scales, and even leave the stock run flats on, you could improve the Z06's lap times SIGNIFICANTLY without spending a dime.





    You should probably go work for GM, since you know how to extract more out of the Z06 than the team of GM Engineers were able to when they posted their Ring time.

    Again, the facts are the facts. A car with DOUBLE the displacement of the GT3RS, a car that has at least 250lb/ft more toruqe and 85 more HP and one that was modified by it's own engineers at a closed down, private session couldn't beat a stock GT3RS's time at a public, and damp Ring session.

    This is hilarious.



    OK, this test at Hockenhiem was different than the test at the ring. I WOULD imagine the engineers at the ring test, did adjust the car to it's best setting for that track, but this test was done by a car magazine with stock cars, not GM preppared vehicles.

    Also, actually GM does use an OUTSIDE vendor to prepare their track cars in the SCCA Showroom Stock T1 racing classes where these cars compete against other stock GT3's and F360's. Pheonix racing (US based) is the #1 Corvette suspension tuner in the world, and has won the coveted T1 class (GT3, Viper, F360) since the Corvette was homoligated to compete. Phoenix (NOT GM) actually provided many of the specs for the T1 suspension packagfor the C5/6 that has been a popular upgrade for many Corvette track enthusiasts. So YES, outside vendors/people that have more experience racing the car on a daily basis, have proven records to extract every ounce of performance from the car vs the factory. This IS probably the difference between Porsche and GM.

    And regarding the tires...GM Engineers have a lot more on their mind other than performance when making decisions regarding tires. Remember the Z06 has no place for a spare tire, so less than desirable run-flats were the only option for a car sold to US public. This was a compromise I am sure created many arguments internally.

    People say WHAT IF the RS had 85 more HP...we'll I say what if I had the $35,000 difference in cost to modify the Z06? Your argument is NO better than mine! So I need 600 hp to decimate the RS..who cares? I still walk away with more than $25k in my pocket.

    I think my opinion of the RS is coming accross all wrong...I think the RS is an awesome ride and the fact that the Z06 DOES need more HP to beat it, is a testament to Porsche engineering...BUT it's too expensive.

    Many may not be familiar with me, but I actually RACE Corvette's. My car is a Phoenix preppared car. I am not a waxer, back mountain driver, or benchracer. I have been racing Corvette's for 6 years and have several time trial wins to my name. For a track car, price/perfomance is the last justifier, and after looking at several platforms (including EVO and such) I found that the Corvette had the most potential and significant aftermarket following that was centric to road racing for the $$$$ value.

    Here is one of my video's...chasing a Factory Ferrari 355 Challenge Car. This car was preppared and sold by Ferrari specifically for the Challenge race seris. I personally have gotten my car so well set up, that I easily pass Viper's, 360's, 996 GT3's, and have the video's to prove it.

    oh... and this is ONLY a C5 Z06.

    http://home.comcast.net/~g5x3z06/wsb/html/view.cgi-showresources.html-TopRes-General.html

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Here we go, Corvette vs. 911 in its historically pure form....

    There's no real winner here, it's a value thing, and that includes quality and everything else. Both cars are great for what they are, OBVIOUSLY. So we don't need to fall too far into the trap (look who's talking.. :rolleyes: )

    The only reason I got all a$$ed-up, was because the basis for trashing on the Z06 was pure nonsense...

    Heaven forbid Chevy boots out a track-purpose unit at $100 grand that runs times on par with the Carrera GT... I can see the furrowed brows now... "But it's a sub-standard product, not WORTHY of our attention..., not PURE of material and purpose... and the horsepower, that's..just...unFAIR...".

    Kinda reminds you of how Jesse Owens was received at the 1936 Olympics??

    Oh, jeez, I just didn't go there, did I??

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:

    Heaven forbid Chevy boots out a track-purpose unit at $100 grand that runs times on par with the Carrera GT... I can see the furrowed brows now... "But it's a sub-standard product, not WORTHY of our attention..., not PURE of material and purpose... and the horsepower, that's..just...unFAIR...".



    That car already exists.You skipped that part of my previous post.It's a British based Dutch car tuned by a small German company and it was 4 seconds quicker than the CGT in a +-70 seconds lap.

    If you want to know which manufacturer builds the fastest cars let me just say that GM doesn't have 16 overall wins in Le Mans.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    GA997S said:
    Quote:
    Walter said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    But all I see is that a much cheaper STREET CAR is keeping pace with a purpose-built-for-race-homologation car. I don't care who has more power. That's simply not relevant.


    If GM doesn't give semi slicks as an option it's probably because they're very happy with the Goodyears. Do you honestly think that when the Corvette was developed, no one even considered using the best possible tires?



    It's because the Z06 is a street car and only a small percentage will ever see a track. The run-flats are for the driver who doesn't want to be stranded and doesn't mind that their car is only almost as fast as the GT3 RS.



    Did you know that run flats are faster than normal tires? Did you know that run flats aren't really the best on normal roads and that they are horrible on a wet pavement?

    The Z06 seems to have the more track orientated tires here.Not the GT3 RS.There's a German magazine that tests sports cars on a wet track.The fastest lap times were set by cars(the GT3 and Audi RS4) that had semi slicks.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Sorry, but you are definately wrong about run-flats being more performance oriented. Comparing run-flats to non-run flats is almost like comparing treaded tires to semi-slick tires. They are a huge hindrance on the track, and are only put on the Z06 because it is a mass produced vehicle with no space engineered for a spare tire.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    Sorry, but you are definately wrong about run-flats being more performance oriented. Comparing run-flats to non-run flats is almost like comparing treaded tires to semi-slick tires. They are a huge hindrance on the track, and are only put on the Z06 because it is a mass produced vehicle with no space engineered for a spare tire.



    I thought GM used a near-race compound for the Z06 Vette run-flats... In any case, from what I have heard until now, the Z06 has been built to be used as a track car (its handling on less-than-perfect roads leaves something to be desired). That said, I would get one as a track car in a heartbeat.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    Crash, the Z06 suspension set up is definitely way more for the street than the track.In fact some people say it rides more comfortable than Porsche PASM system. It just does well at a track compared to most other cars. Owners who do a lot of Z06 track work make a lot of changes as its set up is less than ideal for the serious track driver.

    AND..If the Z06's tires were THAT good, you would see people asking to get those Goodyears for their Ferraris and Porsches. But nooooo its the Z06 owners that want to change to Michelin Cup tires!

    If the GT3 RS was not several hundred pounds heavier than a Z06 it might have a chance to beat it. But we are now in a
    strange era where Corvettes weigh substantially less than Porsches.



    You can almost smell the bacon cooking in Stuttgart!

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    The Z06 is a scary fast car. My 997s was the fastest car I had driven. Some how I moved from the 997 to the Z06. I don't know if the Z06 is faster than the GT3 or not. I've had the Z06 for two and 1/2 weeks. Today I did a run in third gear started at 70mph went to 130mph in same gear. It took 1/2 the distance that it took my 997s to reach 110mph. The 997s rides like a Cadillac compared to the Z06. I will probably trade back for a 997s when the new models come out with power updates. Tried a 997 turbo, do not like the four wheel drive and extra weight. The 997s is truly a daily driver. I only get by with the Z06 because my office is only 1/4 mile from home. Just a few remarks to think about.

    Re: Autozeitung: Porsche 997 GT3 RS vs Corvette Z0

    All this argueing will be useless once GMs blue devil/Z07/Stingray comes out. I can't imagine what +150hp and -150Lbs is gonna do to that car.

     
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