Jan 16, 2007 1:29:38 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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Re: Enlighten me please
Well, these crossover SUVs, imo, are perciptated by a changing market.
Large SUVs are just not "in fashion" in a gas conscious economy.
These crossovers are part sports, part compact, part SUV (in a sense a compromise for everything).
Will they sell? I guess we'll find out.
Large SUVs are just not "in fashion" in a gas conscious economy.
These crossovers are part sports, part compact, part SUV (in a sense a compromise for everything).
Will they sell? I guess we'll find out.
Re: Enlighten me please
I think the so called "crossover vehicles" are only the next step in the neverending search of the car industry for new niches and markets.
A car concept that hasn't been there before, that no-one really needs, but that will sell at least at the beginning because it's something new and different.
A car concept that hasn't been there before, that no-one really needs, but that will sell at least at the beginning because it's something new and different.
Jan 16, 2007 10:32:34 AM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Rossi said:
A car concept that hasn't been there before, that no-one really needs
Agreed. My translation of "crossover" is = running out of good ideas
The funny (or sad) thing is that due to the car industry's attempt to create new niches by just merging existing car concepts at the end of the day there will be no more distinction between car concepts at all - they all will look the same
Jan 16, 2007 10:55:04 AM
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ISUK
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Re: Enlighten me please
Yep, it's manufacturer speak for saying we've invented a weird looking car that is clearly unattractive but if we advertise it with glamourous models driving it and create a wannabee lifestyle image then we'll sell loads. This is a tricky task as for every one that succeeds there are an equivalent number of failures and the French for example are masters at getting it wrong - Renault Avantime, Renault Vel Satis, Peugeot 1006 etc. There is a current craze in Europe for producing relatively small cars with ludicrous amounts of headroom which I cannot fathom why anyone would need unless they wear top hats continually. The new Skoda Roomster is a perfect example 
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
ISUK said:
Yep, it's manufacturer speak for saying we've invented a weird looking car that is clearly unattractive but if we advertise it with glamourous models driving it and create a wannabee lifestyle image then we'll sell loads. This is a tricky task as for every one that succeeds there are an equivalent number of failures and the French for example are masters at getting it wrong - Renault Avantime, Renault Vel Satis, Peugeot 1006 etc. There is a current craze in Europe for producing relatively small cars with ludicrous amounts of headroom which I cannot fathom why anyone would need unless they wear top hats continually. The new Skoda Roomster is a perfect example
Very well said!
Another example of the cars mentioned above: Mercedes R-class.
Jan 16, 2007 11:03:11 AM
- Rossi
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Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:
Agreed. My translation of "crossover" is = running out of good ideas
The funny (or sad) thing is that due to the car industry's attempt to create new niches by just merging existing car concepts at the end of the day there will be no more distinction between car concepts at all - they all will look the same
More sad than funny if you ask me.
In fact driving around in nearly identical (and ugly BTW) cars is a rather horrible imagination of the future.
Re: Enlighten me please
Not to mention the B class (why do it when you have the A class) and the GL - how many 4x4 models does the world need?? The biggest turkey of all could be the new BMW X6 which is about to appear just as the market starts to shun SAV's/SUV's/4x4s. Who the heck wants a jacked up coupe?
Jan 16, 2007 11:08:52 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Rossi said:
I think the so called "crossover vehicles" are only the next step in the neverending search of the car industry for new niches and markets.
A car concept that hasn't been there before, that no-one really needs, but that will sell at least at the beginning because it's something new and different.
Quote:
Porsche-Jeck said:Quote:
Rossi said:
A car concept that hasn't been there before, that no-one really needs
Agreed. My translation of "crossover" is = running out of good ideas
The funny (or sad) thing is that due to the car industry's attempt to create new niches by just merging existing car concepts at the end of the day there will be no more distinction between car concepts at all - they all will look the same
Quote:
ISUK said:
Yep, it's manufacturer speak for saying we've invented a weird looking car that is clearly unattractive but if we advertise it with glamourous models driving it and create a wannabee lifestyle image then we'll sell loads. This is a tricky task as for every one that succeeds there are an equivalent number of failures and the French for example are masters at getting it wrong - Renault Avantime, Renault Vel Satis, Peugeot 1006 etc. There is a current craze in Europe for producing relatively small cars with ludicrous amounts of headroom which I cannot fathom why anyone would need unless they wear top hats continually. The new Skoda Roomster is a perfect example
All 3 of you are right on the money
AFAIK this fad for crossover vehicles predated the more recent trend to move away from large SUVs e.g. the Audi Allroad has been around for some time.
I think crossover is a lazy, marketing term for a frankenstein car or a car which is the b*stard love-child of two other types of car. Think estate/station wagon breeds with small SUV or minivan breeds with large SUV.
I hate cars like the Skoda Roomster. I hate the Berlingo and the Fiat Multipla. Form may follow function but c'mon, we're not tasteless and blind...
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
ISUK said:
and the French for example are masters at getting it wrong - Renault Avantime, Renault Vel Satis, Peugeot 1006 etc.
You seem to forget their successes too...Espace, Scenic, Twingo...which were huge successes and those form factors were then copied by many manufacturers...
Re: Enlighten me please
In fairness Jeannot I did say that for every success there are corresponding failures. The French have been trying to create niche markets for longer than anyone as they cannot compete with the Germans in terms of perceived quality/image, the Italians in terms of racing history/style, the Brits in terms of racing pedigree/history/brand values etc etc. So they are left with using daring and quirky design thanks to Msr Patrick le Quement. And I'll think you'll find that the Espace was an idea originally conceived by Giugiaro with the Meggagamma concept in 1978 
Meggagamma pic
Meggagamma pic
Jan 16, 2007 2:22:31 PM
- schao
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I'm totally confused with the new notion of Crossover vehicles.
Seriously, joking aside what's a crossover?
They all look like SUVs or mini SUVs to me. Am I missing something ?
Definitionally, an SUV uses a true truck-based platform (rides poorly, gets poor fuel economy, but great for towing and off-roading), whereas a CUV uses a car-based platform (handles more like passenger car, gets better fuel economy, but doesn't have great towing capacity and only light off-road capability). This segment is essentially replacing the SUV category as vast majority of SUV buyers don't go offroad. Best know CUV's are BMW X3, X5; Porsche Cayenne/VW Toureg/Audi Q7; Lexus RX/Toyota Hilander; Honda Pilot/Acura MDX and Acura RDX; Chevy Equinox; Ford Mariner, etc. In other words, a CUV is a more "refined" alternative as a "Mommymobile". My wife still prefers her S4 Avant, thank god!
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
schao said:Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
I'm totally confused with the new notion of Crossover vehicles.
Seriously, joking aside what's a crossover?
They all look like SUVs or mini SUVs to me. Am I missing something ?
Definitionally, an SUV uses a true truck-based platform (rides poorly, gets poor fuel economy, but great for towing and off-roading), whereas a CUV uses a car-based platform (handles more like passenger car, gets better fuel economy, but doesn't have great towing capacity and only light off-road capability). This segment is essentially replacing the SUV category as vast majority of SUV buyers don't go offroad. Best know CUV's are BMW X3, X5; Porsche Cayenne/VW Toureg/Audi Q7; Lexus RX/Toyota Hilander; Honda Pilot/Acura MDX and Acura RDX; Chevy Equinox; Ford Mariner, etc. In other words, a CUV is a more "refined" alternative as a "Mommymobile". My wife still prefers her S4 Avant, thank god!
Not sure I would put the Cayenne in that category, yes they probably don't go off road often but it is a very capable off roader.
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
ISUK said:
So they are left with using daring and quirky design thanks to Msr Patrick le Quement. And I'll think you'll find that the Espace was an idea originally conceived by Giugiaro with the Meggagamma concept in 1978
If you want to be technical, Matra started building the original crossover vehicle in 1978: the Rancho. Although it was revolutionary at the time, the Espace was merely its successor.
However, you're right, the Espace was not even the first production minivan. The Nissan Prairie was introduced 2 years earlier in 1982, and the Chrysler Voyager/Caravan/T&C in 1983.
It's like portable MP3 players. The iPod was definitely not the first on the market, but definitely the first to get it right.
Re: Enlighten me please
I wasn't trying to say that the Meggagamma was the first crossover, merely the first one box people carrier concept. It was shown at Turin I think in 1978 so predates the Espace by 4 years. I seem to recall reading that the Espace was based upon an idea by Matra who had envisaged it being a replacement for the Rancho. Matra were affiliated to Peugeot who rejected the proposal so Matra took it to Renault and the rest is history. I daresay there are even earlier examples of crossovers, the VW Combi springs to mind for starters so it is not really a new phenomenon just a new name.
Re: Enlighten me please
I personally don't care what the latest craze is, as long as they continue making affordable fast sports cars that I can cheaply modify and run on a race track.
If they need to sell a billion SUV's, Crossover's, or whatever to the masses, to continue funding sports car development, then I am 100% for whatever it takes.
If not, I guess I will just have to stick with Karting and drive a cheap mini-van, because I will ABSOLUTELY NOT pay a premium for anything else but raw speed.
If they need to sell a billion SUV's, Crossover's, or whatever to the masses, to continue funding sports car development, then I am 100% for whatever it takes.
If not, I guess I will just have to stick with Karting and drive a cheap mini-van, because I will ABSOLUTELY NOT pay a premium for anything else but raw speed.
Jan 16, 2007 4:29:02 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Enlighten me please
Guys, please, who cares whether the Matra or the Espace came out first? I can't stand either of them. Yuk! 
BTW was it made by Simca? I can't remember...
@ The Groom: man, you reminded me of a car I thought I had forgotten ever existed. It took me years to forget all about that ugly 'thing'. Now I'll remember it for a while again.
BTW was it made by Simca? I can't remember...
@ The Groom: man, you reminded me of a car I thought I had forgotten ever existed. It took me years to forget all about that ugly 'thing'. Now I'll remember it for a while again.
Jan 16, 2007 5:17:31 PM
- VGA18
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Re: Enlighten me please
Crossover: A vehicle for the family who has at least 2-3 children, has at least two houses to move in different times of season. Not a very huge vehicle like Cadillac Escalade but has much free space than any Wagon car.
I think it is a car between a SUV and a Wagon.
Most of the owners are 2-3 children families and they fill the car with goods, while moving their summer-houses.
I think it is a car between a SUV and a Wagon.
Most of the owners are 2-3 children families and they fill the car with goods, while moving their summer-houses.
Re: Enlighten me please
Flying short distances on commercial flights today is like riding a Greyhound Bus 30 years ago - huddled masses moved along like cattle w/o food or refreshments . Witness the reactionary rise in fractional jet ownership and other such alternatives .
No wonder in this post 9-11 age, people prefer loading up their families and all their assorted gear in SUVs/crossovers/Thule boxes and hitting the highway for 5 hours - probably arrive sooner than flying and without losing your luggage .
No wonder in this post 9-11 age, people prefer loading up their families and all their assorted gear in SUVs/crossovers/Thule boxes and hitting the highway for 5 hours - probably arrive sooner than flying and without losing your luggage .
Jan 16, 2007 8:58:06 PM
- Mithras
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Re: Enlighten me please
You have to admit though that there are well executed cross-overs and not so well done ones.
I understand the well done ones. The Audi Allroad and Volvo XC and Subaru Forester come to mind. All they are really are wagons with increased severe weather and poor road capability. They arn't off roaders but they can drive down the snowy, muddy, potted road to your Ski Chalet or Summer Cottage with you and four others, plus all your gear for the week-end and not get stuck.
The cross-over is for the person that needs to be able to get up the steep gravel driveway at the ski chalet after getting 10 inches of snow overnight and doesn't want a truck...
I understand the well done ones. The Audi Allroad and Volvo XC and Subaru Forester come to mind. All they are really are wagons with increased severe weather and poor road capability. They arn't off roaders but they can drive down the snowy, muddy, potted road to your Ski Chalet or Summer Cottage with you and four others, plus all your gear for the week-end and not get stuck.
The cross-over is for the person that needs to be able to get up the steep gravel driveway at the ski chalet after getting 10 inches of snow overnight and doesn't want a truck...
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Mithras said:
You have to admit though that there are well executed cross-overs and not so well done ones.
I understand the well done ones. The Audi Allroad and Volvo XC and Subaru Forester come to mind. All they are really are wagons with increased severe weather and poor road capability. They arn't off roaders but they can drive down the snowy, muddy, potted road to your Ski Chalet or Summer Cottage with you and four others, plus all your gear for the week-end and not get stuck.
The cross-over is for the person that needs to be able to get up the steep gravel driveway at the ski chalet after getting 10 inches of snow overnight and doesn't want a truck...
The crossover you mention above are cars, that are not too far away from the basic car. An Audi Allroad for example is more or less an estate, with some cosmetic changes. Same goes for the XC or the Forrester. So perhaps we can say the nearer a so called crossover vehicle to a familiar car concept the better. Or the other way round: the more absurd the new concept the less anybody needs such a car.
Re: Enlighten me please
A crossover is a mixture of two, so far indipendently considered vehicle categories. The Skoda Roomster falls right into this category as the Audi Allroad and some other, less important examples.
I do see quite a bit of potential for a decent range of crossovers - Audi launched a crossover concept of Audi A3 Coupe and small SUV a couple of years ago. Let's admit it, I do know enough people who hardly use all five seats in their Cayenne - so why not use a similarly versatile vehicle with more [aero-]dynamic shape? You can say whatever you want, there is no more or less justification for such a car than for the rest of the SUV bunch.
However I want to point out that I wouldn't be in the market for all of the above mentioned cars.
In fact the Allroad quattro provides more than enough offroad capabilities for the majority of drivers out there. I have seen surprisingly many Audi Allroad vehicles in Portugal, more than in any other country. No clue why that occured...
Do you think so? How about this one - the Autonova Fam from 1965...
I do see quite a bit of potential for a decent range of crossovers - Audi launched a crossover concept of Audi A3 Coupe and small SUV a couple of years ago. Let's admit it, I do know enough people who hardly use all five seats in their Cayenne - so why not use a similarly versatile vehicle with more [aero-]dynamic shape? You can say whatever you want, there is no more or less justification for such a car than for the rest of the SUV bunch.
However I want to point out that I wouldn't be in the market for all of the above mentioned cars.
Quote:
Rossi said:
The crossover you mention above are cars, that are not too far away from the basic car. An Audi Allroad for example is more or less an estate, with some cosmetic changes. [...]
In fact the Allroad quattro provides more than enough offroad capabilities for the majority of drivers out there. I have seen surprisingly many Audi Allroad vehicles in Portugal, more than in any other country. No clue why that occured...
Quote:
ISUK said:
I wasn't trying to say that the Meggagamma was the first crossover, merely the first one box people carrier concept. It was shown at Turin I think in 1978 [...]
Do you think so? How about this one - the Autonova Fam from 1965...
Re: Enlighten me please
I guess it depends what you're crossing too. You could argue that a S4 estate is the crossing of a sports car and a wagon I guess.
But what we see more often is the crossing of off-road capability with car size and manners, or quite unfortunatly (IMHO) the looks of an off-roader with the capabilites of a car (a useless and silly thing to do).
In my mind the Allroad etc. are not quite cars or estates, they're a little higher, a little more wheel travel and therefore better off paved road capability. I think they have a place in the car market. The BMW X3 on the otherhand provides little extra space, much higher gas costs, and little if any extra off road capability over it's car brethern. These cross-overs are useless and probably never see mud, snow or more than a couple of passengers.
But what we see more often is the crossing of off-road capability with car size and manners, or quite unfortunatly (IMHO) the looks of an off-roader with the capabilites of a car (a useless and silly thing to do).
In my mind the Allroad etc. are not quite cars or estates, they're a little higher, a little more wheel travel and therefore better off paved road capability. I think they have a place in the car market. The BMW X3 on the otherhand provides little extra space, much higher gas costs, and little if any extra off road capability over it's car brethern. These cross-overs are useless and probably never see mud, snow or more than a couple of passengers.
It looks suspiciously like a milk float with doors though 
Re: Enlighten me please
Quote:
Mithras said:
I guess it depends what you're crossing too. You could argue that a S4 estate is the crossing of a sports car and a wagon I guess. [...]
Interesting thought - however I do believe that an S4 or RS4 Avant doesn't go far enough to be considered a crossover. To be precise, both vehicle types, saloon and station wagon [estate] share chassis, suspension and drivetrain with their more commen siblings. Their differentiations rely on subtle changes more than on explicit influences of other vehicle types. Maybe the very first Audi RS2, which was built and partially equipped by Porsche, could be considered as a crossover between sportscar and standard production car. What do you think?
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