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    Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Instead of a 997 GT3, I am considering buying a M3 CSL (I live in Germany where I can buy a CSL for about 50,000 euro) improving the brakes and suspension - and adding a supercharger. For 70,000 euro this would create a car that could beat a GT3 on the Ring while still providing four seats and luggage space for business or family use. I like to own just one car and drive it for all occasions, including long-distance and hot Nordschleife laps. I don't want another heavy Turbo.

    Even in standard form the CSL Ring time of 7.50 is close to the 7.45 of the GT3 (although the new GT3 cup tyres may be slightly less sticky than the old MPSC used on the CSL).

    How do you think a CSL with motons, big brakes and 480 HP would perform in comparison to a new GT3?

    How do you think such an upgraded CSL would feel in comparison to a new GT3 in terms of driver satisfaction?

    I have driven a standard CSL on the street and liked its near perfect balance of performance and practicality.

    BTW, the new GT3 has been weighed at 3223 lbs, making it heavier than the four-seat CSL. http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=320653

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    how about get a csl and enjoy it without mods? supercharger will change the feel and is not worth it imo

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    catdog said:
    how about get a csl and enjoy it without mods? supercharger will change the feel and is not worth it imo


    I totally agree and also the CSL motor is highly stressed in stock form (360hp from 3.2L with very high compression) and I think you would badly affect reliability with a SC...

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Sounds like the CSL may be a better option for you as they are both great cars in any case.

    Having driven both a CSL and a 997 I would say that I felt more of a part of the 997 than I did the CSL. Having said that though I enjoyed both cars immensely.

    Other than having the Kudos attached to the GT3, for a business car and pure practicality the CSL is a winner.

    I agree with Catdog and Grant, don't bother with the mods on the CSL.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    I have owned modded BMW's and a BMW race car. Once you have a half shaft break and fly off at over 100mph or discover that the rocker shafts have oval'd themselves from high rpms and lots of extra power you will never go there again.

    You can only do so much to the car and still keep it normal
    for the street or actually usable for long trips.

    A upgraded braking system on any BMW is a good idea, but the moton and supercharger will detract from its everyday normal usage..and of course you will then need headers and a exhaust system and the ECU reprogrammed..and you may need specially hardened $$$$$$ rocker shafts to use that power at high rpms on the track regularly...or maybe I just drove too hard!

    Does the CSL model you are talking about even have a insulated roof? If not, when it rains hard you will feel like you are inside a tin can.

    I know the CSL is a good track day car, but have you considered a Alpina or Schnitzer 3r? They might better fit
    your needs more for a go fast street/trip/and occaisional track use car that seats 4 and has a trunk.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    I am moving very close to the Ring soon and plan to track my car several times every week. I do need a car than can keep up with (or beat GT3s on the Ring. And be suitable for long-distance travel and kids in the back.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    911 turbo...

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    AUM if you track it several times a week, you will wear it out at a very high rate. Weekly hard track use at the Ring is very hard on a car,even one built specially for it, even a BMW M or GT3.

    Maybe you should re consider two car ownership.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    911 turbo...


    You would need a huge tire and brake budget to track a Turbo multiple times per week...

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    911 turbo...


    You would need a huge tire and brake budget to track a Turbo multiple times per week...



    For the 996 GT3, didnt Porsche publish a suggested MTBO
    of 10,000 miles when used for the track?

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    911 turbo...


    You would need a huge tire and brake budget to track a Turbo multiple times per week...



    For the 996 GT3, didnt Porsche publish a suggested MTBO
    of 10,000 miles when used for the track?


    Jim - Forgive my ignorance, but what is MTBO? Something about motor tear-down/rebuild schedule?

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    You would need a huge tire and brake budget to track a Turbo multiple times per week...



    Why would it be significantly more than a GT3? I've heard this before, but I don't get it. I can understand needing front tires replaced sooner on a Turbo because of AWD, and maybe a little more wear on tires and brakes because of the added power, but not THAT much. What am I missing here?

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Grant its ok, MTBO is a aircraft term and it means time between overhauls for the engine(s).

    I read the 10,000 miles bit in a car review where they had a guy from Porsche Motorsports answering questions about the 996 GT3.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Silver Bullet - the extra weight of the TT will make it use up track tires more quickly than a GT3.

    Weight is the enemy!

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Grant its ok, MBTO is a aicraft term and its means time between overhauls.

    I read the 10,000 miles bit in a car review where they had a guy from Porsche Motorsports answering questions about the 996 GT3.


    I'm not sure what the recommendation is. These cars are almost all still under warranty, so I'm sure nobody has volunteered to pay that large cost on their own (just get Porsche to fix it if it breaks)...

    I know the Cup (similar motor with same redline) has about 100hrs recommended track use before tear-down. I guess if you average 100mph, that's about 10k miles...

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Grant, yes so if someone tracked a GT3 on the ring several times a week for half the weeks of the year and pounded it on the A bahn there would not be much motor left after a year.

    So just how much is a GT3 engine from Porsche? 40k?

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Silver Bullet - the extra weight of the TT will make it use up track tires more quickly than a GT3.

    Weight is the enemy!


    Yes, weight is the enemy and speed is more of the enemy. The energy required to stop a car is proportional to the weight (twice as heavy means twice as much braking energy).

    But, energy to stop a car is proportional to the SQUARE of the speed (twice the speed means 4 times as much braking power).

    So, if the Turbo is heavier AND faster before the braking zones than the GT3, then it needs alot more braking (and same forces are exerted on the tires from turning as well as braking).

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Grant, yes so if someone tracked a GT3 on the ring several times a week for half the weeks of the year and pounded it on the A bahn there would not be much motor left for after a year.

    So just how much is a GT3 engine from Porsche? 40k?


    I think the new one is closer to $50k...

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    M engines are not inexpensve either and M engine parts are astronomically priced. What I have noticed from owning both Porsches and BMWs and beating them unmercifully, is that Porsches cost less to feed and that inevitably any BMW used for the track ends up as a money pit.

    Porsche is the stronger more reliable car, besides having a superior center of gravity, better aerodynamics, a lower roll center and none of BMW's annoying weight transfer under hard braking. The 911 layout has advantages over
    any front engine and even some mid engine cars.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    911 turbo...



    Turbos are too heavy for regular track use and the back seat is too small for bigger kids. I did Turbo already and have no interest in another one.

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    If you drive there several times a week with a CSL, you'll be soon faster than most GT3s :-)

    Re: Upgraded CSL vs GT3

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    AUM if you track it several times a week, you will wear it out at a very high rate. Weekly hard track use at the Ring is very hard on a car,even one built specially for it, even a BMW M or GT3.

    Maybe you should re consider two car ownership.



    I am happy to drive a 50,000 euro CSL like I stole it for a year then sell it, hopefully before it breaks.

    Split the tasks

    Buy a used Radical or Caterham or Exige for the 'Ring and something like a 330D Touring for carrying the family

    Re: Split the tasks

    wise words from lechef; remember after tracking any car, it will be less tidy to drive everyday; it may feel disproportionately less well kept, and so 2car approach mau be best if serious regular trak is anticipated

    Re: Split the tasks

    In theory a two-car solution is best. But my family transportation occurs mostly on curvy backroads and long-distance autobahns where I am unwilling to drive any kind of family transporter. I like to drive a sports car all the time - for 50,000 kms a year.

    Re: Split the tasks

    For a two car solution, I would consider a CSL (or maybe a standard M3) as a family/business car and a Lotus Exige S (with the super sports pack) as a track car. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=109667

    I had a test drive in an Exige S recently and really liked it.

    Re: Split the tasks

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=109667

    For a two car solution, I would consider a CSL (or maybe a standard M3) as a family/business car and a Lotus Exige S (with the super sports pack) as a track car. http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=109667

    I had a test drive in an Exige S recently and really liked it.


    Yes, that might be a very nice combination of cars. I like the Elise/Exige, but it doesn't have enough headroom for me (even without a helmet)...

    Re: Split the tasks

    Supercharged CSL at the Ring
    http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp?c=movies&n=&id=113

    This what I really want

    2003 M3 CSL VT2 5.5PSI Supercharger System (108-97)
    Featuring the highly efficient and reliable Vortech V2SQ supercharger unit combined with the new ESS LiquaFlow high capacity liquid intercooler manifold system with front mounted heat exchanger and ice expansion system for superior discharge temperature reduction and optimal power development under all conditions.

    The redesigned ESS MSS54 engine control software is perfectly calibrated for the supercharged engine providing optimum ignition timing under all conditions, recalibrated EGas for quicker throttle response, recalibrated VANOS control and perfectly optimized fuel delivery supplied by 6 larger Bosch injection valves included with the kit. We have spent countless hours developing and testing the new S54 VT2 system and the end result is a product we are extremely proud of.

    The CSL drives and feels just like an original CSL until you step on the accelerator.. Then you will be completely chocked by the acceleration the supercharged CSL provides.

    The system maintains all OBD-II functions and it is backed by a comprehensive 2 year, unlimited mileage warranty program. The system installs in 8-10 hours using normal hand tools and no irreversible modifications to the car is necessary.

    System components:

    -Vortech V2SQ supercharger unit.
    -High capacity ESS LiquaFlow intercooler manifold system.
    -Uni-belt with additional OEM quality rollers.
    -6 larger Bosch fuel injectors.
    -Perfectly optimized, dyno tweaked ECU software.
    -CNC hard anodized brackets and hardware.
    -K&N high flow air filter.
    -Discharge and intake assemblies made from 304 stainless steel.
    -High temperature silicone hoses with clamps
    -Detailed, step-by-step installation manual + CD.
    -Heavy-Duty drive belt.
    -3 way, fume reduction oil breather assembly designed for boost.
    -All installation hardware included
    -2yr./unlimited mileage warranty.

    Part number: 108-97
    Boost pressure: 6.5 PSI
    Horsepower: 510 DIN (Stock 360)
    Torque: 480 NM (Stock 370)
    Installation time : 12-16 hours

    Re: Split the tasks

    Nice! I want one too!

     
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