Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Wrong approach Nick - Page4

Jan 12, 2007 5:21:37 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said:
My My you are awefully sensitive and defensive. The law school exam reference was tongue in cheek. However, I am beginning to get a better sense of where you are coming from. You regales us with "credentials" and hope we will be so impressed that you will have the aura of infallability of the Pope. Sorry I am not impressed or intimated.

BTW, your legal skills need polishing. To assert this is a case of specific performance is all I need to know.

Nick, for an educated man (I presume), your spelling and grammar is truly atrocious.

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Jan 12, 2007 5:33:39 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: John H

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
John H said:
Quote:
nberry said:
My My you are awefully sensitive and defensive. The law school exam reference was tongue in cheek. However, I am beginning to get a better sense of where you are coming from. You regales us with "credentials" and hope we will be so impressed that you will have the aura of infallability of the Pope. Sorry I am not impressed or intimated.

BTW, your legal skills need polishing. To assert this is a case of specific performance is all I need to know.

Nick, for an educated man (I presume), your spelling and grammar is truly atrocious.

innit jon innit

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Jan 12, 2007 5:39:59 PM

BSL: Co-Pilot; Loc: USA , United States; Posts: 226, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: rhino

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
rhino said:
Be firm and at least get $$$ back from your purchase. In my opinion a car with a heart transplant is not worth the same as an identical one with all its original parts.

Wouldn't they need to travel to the dealer they purchased from for that? Their servicing dealer certainly isn't going to refund them for the purchase, nor offer to buy the car back from them.

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Jan 12, 2007 5:52:18 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: BSL

Re: Wrong approach Nick

LOL Nick you may consider actually helping the original poster with substantive input rather than your continued pollution of this thread.

BTW, we agree on one thing. I'm not intimated either.

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Jan 12, 2007 5:57:24 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: frayed

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
frayed said:
LOL Nick you may consider actually helping the original poster with substantive input rather than your continued pollution of this thread.

BTW, we agree on one thing. I'm not intimated either.

I have. He should submit it to the AAA. No need for an attorney. It is between him and Porsche. I am sure Porsche will agree. He has nothing to lose. They have already told him they will replace the engine and nothing more.

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Jan 12, 2007 5:59:34 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Good Boy Nick!

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Jan 12, 2007 6:06:53 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: John H

Re: Wrong approach Nick

At the boy john, stick up for your fellow Englishman in his time of need.

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Jan 12, 2007 6:17:20 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said:
At the boy john, stick up for your fellow Englishman in his time of need.

Dont you start on our John ,, Nicholas

..

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Jan 12, 2007 7:48:28 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: throt

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Why not not consider parsing the sales contract if needed?

Why so eager to just roll over and play dead to Stuttgart?
Surely in their agreement with PCNA and they have some room to take a new car back thats defective etc..

Why discount the likelyhood that Porsche of Germany and PCNA have the ability to replace the car or make a refund? The car is just too new to just dismiss that idea I think.

And the crate engine concept is very nice, but exactly what is a "crate" engine from Porsche? Is it a recylcled motor -potentially yes or is it a virgin engine? Most information points to a Porsche 997 crate engine as being a refurbished motor, and for a car with only 200 miles I dont think that is a good enough solution.

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Jan 12, 2007 7:57:33 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not not consider parsing the sales contract?

Why so eager to just roll over and play dead to Stuttgart?

Why discount the likelyhood that Porsche of Germany and PCNA have the wherewithall to replace the car?

The crate engine concept is very nice, but exactly what is a "crate" engine from Porsche? Is it a recylcled motor -potentially yes.

Most manufacturers have a set criteria, bases on mileage, of whether a "new" or "rebuilt" component is used for a warranty replacement depending on the car's mileage. Usually relatively "new" cars only receive "new" parts, never rebuilt, and (I'm not a lawyer) I'm fairly certain it ties back to legal precedent, they wouldn't place a re-man engine in a brand-new car without leaving themselves exposed to a lawsuit that even Joe Pesci could win..

Our Ford GT transaxle was a brand-new assembly-line piece... The housing had never received a VIN until they placed our car's VIN on it.

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Jan 12, 2007 11:07:14 PM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
69bossnine said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Why not not consider parsing the sales contract?

Why so eager to just roll over and play dead to Stuttgart?

Why discount the likelyhood that Porsche of Germany and PCNA have the wherewithall to replace the car?

The crate engine concept is very nice, but exactly what is a "crate" engine from Porsche? Is it a recylcled motor -potentially yes.

a lawsuit that even Joe Pesci could win..

Great Movie!

Breaching the contract is a possibility. Car is back in our possesion and there is nothing concrete yet. Once I know I will let you know, just a lot of juggling and other things happen and I dont want to be cluttering up this thread with updates until something is for sure. There will be some time before any answer of any sort is produced.

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Jan 12, 2007 11:43:52 PM

ScottL: Junior; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2005; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Porsche 930S,
I really feel for you in the current situation!

I am sure your father has worked hard to be in a position to enjoy the finer things in life. He has chosen to purchase a Porsche. The absolute pinnacle of automotive engineering.

I can only begin to imagine the dismay and disappointment you felt on discovering this glaring defect.

Please excuse the language that is about to follow...

What the f**k is going on here? What happened to quality control? How the f**k did this car every make it out of the factory? Is this what they mean by world beating German engineering?

Easy - can you imagine how you would feel if there was a pool of oil under your car when you arrived to collect it at the factory?

RC - can you imagine the anger and frustration you would feel if your new turbo had emptied it's oil reservoir on your garage floor the day after you drove it home?

This is absolutely disgraceful. Porsche should be mortified. They should immediately and profusely apologise for this shameful episode...and make immediate arrangements to replace the car as well as make an appropriate gesture of goodwill towards the customer.

Anything less is adding insult to injury.

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Jan 12, 2007 11:51:47 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: Porsche930S

Tough Luck

Very interesting issue here and personally I would be very upset if it happened to me. If I couldn't get a new car and by all reports - that seems highly unlikely, I would at the very least demand the following:

1. A similar car for use whilst my car was in for the engine swop.

2. Make the dealer sign a contract that they would buy the car back at any given point in time for the market value - regardless of engine swops etc

3. Refund some of my payment as compensation or free servicing / tequipment (USA could get away with USD 5,000 worth since margins are quite low compared to ROW)

For my work (dealing with lots of automotive companies) I know that Bentley had a issue (mechanical) with a car and when they could not "fix" it in Japan they shipped it back to the UK (via Air) to try and fix it, the customer gave them a week to try. When they couldn't at the end of the week - they supplied a brand new car. Thats customer service. And a Bentley Continental GT is only 18% more than a Targa 4S in Japan.

The same with Maserati - a guy in the UK bought one, had a major issue with it, Maserati flew him and his wife over to Italy and gave him a brand new car PROVIDING, he would hand back his car for them to inspect and research what the issue was and how it should be resolved.

Problem with Porsche is they know about rusting brake disc, RMS and some of the electrically glitches their cars have from day one! But, they work on the law of averages and are a bit too interested in selling more and more cars and making more and more money!

The more bad mouthing they get the more chance of them doing something but I wouldn't bank on it. I met a scum bag Porsche exec a while ago and he told me "we make the best car in the world, the Italians and Brits haven't a clue and the Americans have to buy our cars because there is nothing else they can offer to compete!" Porsche think they have the best product in the world (I do agree the 997 is the best value, most practical and one of the coolest cars on the road)and a few engine replacements are not going to bother them. And quite frankly, if any of us were the CEO of Porsche we probably would be thinking or doing the same.

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Jan 13, 2007 12:10:46 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: ScottL

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
S1XXR said:

This is absolutely disgraceful. Porsche should be mortified.

Absofreekinlutely! Hear that Porsche?!

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Jan 13, 2007 12:17:49 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: frayed

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
frayed said:
... Leave the arrogant extortionist-based practice to those with the disposition ...

frayed, I made this decision many years ago. It just isn't in my nature to put myself before my client's interests (by exaggerating his chances to secure his retainer). Fleecing clients in this fashion is the modus operandi of cowboys and charlatans. I'm relieved to say that I'm not cut from the same cloth as Nick.

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Jan 13, 2007 12:17:55 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said:
... I am not ... intimated...

I assume you mean 'intimidated'. Poor grammar, atrocious spelling, incorrect punctuation: you're doing a great job of convincing me that English isn't your first language.

Returning to what you wrote (or at least attempted to write

), you say you're not intimidated Nick. Of course you aren't. I didn't expect you to be. But why would you even raise that issue upon learning of my background? Those are the words of a defensive man on the back foot. Do you have an inferiority complex?

BTW, in case you hadn't realised, studying law at Cambridge and working for a prestigious law firm are not mere labels. To an outsider who may not himself have been good enough to enter such organisations, it's convenient to overlook the fact that these institutions and organisations are places that offer the finest teaching, training, experience and quality of work. They certainly indicate a lawyer's calibre to people who may not be personally acquainted with a particular lawyer's skills and ability. That's why we look at such factors on a resume when interviewing a job candidate. But, you regard them as mere labels. Maybe you just can't appreciate the substance behind them.

I asked you previously what calibre of lawyer you are. Your silence speaks volumes.

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Jan 13, 2007 12:18:00 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: ScottL

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
S1XXR said:
Easy - can you imagine how you would feel if there was a pool of oil under your car when you arrived to collect it at the factory?

Of course, from the emotional point of view, I absolutely agree with you. However, what you can get from a dealer in a courtroom isn't based on how emotionally aggrieved you may be. It depends on your legal rights...an entirely different story.

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Jan 13, 2007 12:31:49 AM

ScottL: Junior; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Quote:
S1XXR said:
Easy - can you imagine how you would feel if there was a pool of oil under your car when you arrived to collect it at the factory?

Of course, from the emotional point of view, I absolutely agree with you. However, what you can get from a dealer in a courtroom isn't based on how emotionally aggrieved you may be. It depends on your legal rights...an entirely different story.

So hypothetically speaking...in the scenario that YOUR car developed a fatal engine defect after 200 miles...and that Porsche offered you nothing more than a new (reconditioned?) engine fitted under warranty, how would you proceed? (assuming we're working to English law)

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Jan 13, 2007 12:52:17 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: ScottL

Re: Wrong approach Nick

I personally would accept a new replacement engine but not a refurbished one.

In English law, we look to the Sale of Goods Act according to which a car needs to be not of 'merchantable quality' or not 'fit for purpose' in order for a customer to repudiate the contract. If the car has a new engine, it no longer meets either of those criteria so the car cannot be rejected.

Getting the engine replaced, having repairs carried out etc are all ways to ensure the dealer performs his duties under the contract to supply the car ordered. There is no duty to guarantee that the car supplied is perfect failing which the customer can simply reject the whole thing and ask for a new one.

Repudiation would not be possible in English law in these circumstances. Anyway, repudiation alone is not the only remedy sought. The customer wouldn't just seek to reject the car. He would expect a refund or a new car. Expecting the dealer to do either of these 2 actions is not provided for in the contract itself in the case of breach. As such, the contract doesn't provide these remedies so a customer would need to obtain a remedy from the court which required the dealer to do something not expressly provided for in the contract (i.e. refund or new car). In English law, this kind of remedy is, as frayed put it, akin to specific performance.

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Jan 13, 2007 12:52:33 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Sorry I failed to mention that when I am asked what type of lawyer I am my response is always "a lousy one".

I just try to make a modest living hoping a silk stocking law firm (which employs you) does not beat me up too much.

Also, am afraid to go into a coutroom because when I do I always lose. My case is a sad one so take pity on me.

Maybe in my next life I can be like you.

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Jan 13, 2007 1:01:19 AM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Quote:
nberry said:
... I am not ... intimated...

I asked you previously what calibre of lawyer you are. Your silence speaks volumes.

Ice storm in town - this is the best entertainment I can find.
Nick .44 Magnum
_easy .22 short (your silence was heralded but could not be sustained, glad you came back to play!)

200 miles... Absofreakintotally!

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Jan 13, 2007 1:05:15 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
I personally would accept a new replacement engine but not a refurbished one.

In English law, we look to the Sale of Goods Act according to which a car needs to be not of 'merchantable quality' or not 'fit for purpose' in order for a customer to repudiate the contract. If the car has a new engine, it no longer meets either of those criteria so the car cannot be rejected.

Getting the engine replaced, having repairs carried out etc are all ways to ensure the dealer performs his duties under the contract to supply the car ordered. There is no duty to guarantee that the car supplied is perfect failing which the customer can simply reject the whole thing and ask for a new one.

Repudiation would not be possible in English law in these circumstances. Anyway, repudiation alone is not the only remedy sought. The customer wouldn't just seek to reject the car. He would expect a refund or a new car. Expecting the dealer to do either of these 2 actions is not provided for in the contract itself in the case of breach. As such, the contract doesn't provide these remedies so a customer would need to obtain a remedy from the court which required the dealer to do something not expressly provided for in the contract (i.e. refund or new car). In English law, this kind of remedy is, as frayed put it, akin to specific performance.

Geez try to be creative.

You appear to be an intelligent guy. If a client wants to return the car how would you position the case to do just that? To bend over and grab your ankles is not an effective legal approach for your client. By chance are you a solicitor and not a barrister? That may explain your passivity.

This is my last word on the matter. I do enjoy your posts and do not want to alienate you.

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Jan 13, 2007 1:30:29 AM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

http://autopedia.com/html/LemonLaw/Ohio_OH_lemonlaw2.html

Of interest to 930S - and perhaps to the legal minds.

'IMPORTANT: IF THIS VEHICLE IS DEFECTIVE, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED UNDER STATE LAW TO A REPLACEMENT OR TO COMPENSATION. '

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Jan 13, 2007 2:02:06 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

@easy_rider

Your inference above that Nick fleeces clients is lowly,
ill founded and uterly false.

You might have attended Cambridge, but I think you majored in arrogance and speciousness more than US law.

As many here well know, Nick and I don't see eye to eye on most issues. However, I do know of his legal work and it is
exremely reputable and ethical, way more so than your lowly accusations.

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Jan 13, 2007 2:29:37 AM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Well, got home after a long day at the office to open this thread. I'm not jumping back into the fray regarding the legal issues b/c it's pointless.

I have no idea if Nberry runs an ethical practice, but I certainly cannot make the living I am representing estranged car purchasers on disputes over a few thousand bucks. But if you do Nick, hmmm, makes one wonder.

My natural predisposition, and the way I make my living, is keeping my clients out of court, as a typical lawsuit in my field runs about $4,000,000. These cases ruin careers, span years, and can decimate corporations.

Gunslinging in front of a local constable in the most liberal jurisdiction in the country with strong consumer protection laws is a whole different animal from my practice. And I think this is the key to your absurd accusations thrown Easy's (and my) way and assumptions on your practice based on your substance-deficient posts and arrogance.

That is all.

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Jan 13, 2007 2:34:19 AM

jamesaug: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 414, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

at this rate we will need a seperate forum for legal disputes! or perhaps just one for Nick Berry versus Easy_rider arguments and discussion...

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Jan 13, 2007 6:03:21 AM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: jamesaug

Re: Wrong approach Nick

S1XXR, I have to agree with you. You made some very strong points. No one wants to see this after 200 Miles, approx. 150 of which are to the dealer and back!

Porky, I was hoping someone would post something about other companies and their handling of a similar situation. Maserati and Bentley may be more exclusive companies but, they are all high end, just as Porsche. You buy these vehicles and expect quality, not only in the vehicle but also in the customer care.

I had no idea this thread would get into such a battle between legal minds. I really did not want this to be an ego battle in any way as well, and please do not take that as in insult.

Update: Nothing to really report. Selling dealership has been notified and talked to extensively. Nothing concrete yet so I will not dispose of all the information to create less confusion. Once we know I will update this thread ASAP.

I just wanted to say thank you everyone for everything that has been posted so far. This thread is extremely interesting to me (maybe because I am currently in the room above the Targa right now) but it also shows how much the modern world is controlled by the interpretation of the legal system. It really makes me appreciate how much lawyers work and study to be successful.

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Jan 13, 2007 6:05:10 AM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
Leawood911 said:
http://autopedia.com/html/LemonLaw/Ohio_OH_lemonlaw2.html

Of interest to 930S - and perhaps to the legal minds.

'IMPORTANT: IF THIS VEHICLE IS DEFECTIVE, YOU MAY BE ENTITLED UNDER STATE LAW TO A REPLACEMENT OR TO COMPENSATION. '

Thank you. We are looking into the Lemon Law and will keep researching it.

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Jan 13, 2007 7:01:51 AM

GRN2RSMO: Junior; Loc: NC, USA , United States; Posts: 114, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 21, 2006; Reply to: Porsche930S

What should be done.

Cut your losses now.

You 've bought bad stock, replacing the engine does nothing to remedy your peace of mind.

With record profits and the fact this car has only 200 miles, Porsche should replace this vehicle with a new one, that would be the right thing to do. This car never should have left the factory. And if they rplace the engine I doubt they would give you a loaner car for the duration of the replacement.

I would be very suprised if Porsche replaces the whole car.

Ask the dealer to buy back the car, with some depreciation. He won't give what you paid. But see how much the difference is, if it just a few thousand say 2-3K IMHO I think it would be worth it to get rid of the car and order a replacement.

Over time 2-3K would be worth it for the peace of mind.

I personally feel it should be no more than a 1.5 -2K depriciation.

Speaking from personal experience, if you go the legal route it will only delay the process and the car will depriciate further, and in this case the car cannot be driven, I presume.

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Jan 13, 2007 7:59:26 AM

ScottL: Junior; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2005; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said:
Geez try to be creative. You appear to be an intelligent guy. If a client wants to return the car how would you position the case to do just that? To bend over and grab your ankles is not an effective legal approach for your client. By chance are you a solicitor and not a barrister? That may explain your passivity.

This is my last word on the matter. I do enjoy your posts and do not want to alienate you.

Nick - you are a rare combination of abrasive and entertaining.

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