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Jan 12, 2007 6:04:10 AM
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Porsche930S
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Re: Oil Leak
The reasons for this leak getting past the factory is seen as the fact that this seal error could of been created by two possible things. 1) the seal was not applied correctly, ie the technician slipped or something and did not apply the seal to one specific spot or 2) Having oil on the half block where the seal would of gone, resulting in a messed up bond and seal, and since oil just compresses, this leak would happen over time. Our thoughts are that through heating/cooling and expansion this leak has come to be. But, if thats the case, then how did this get by Porsche anyways? Don't you think the technician building the engine would be more careful or be checked over? There is no possible way we could have created this leak.
I understand what everyone is saying about just replace the engine, but all the stories I have read seem to have engine replacements around 2,000 Miles and up...200 Miles is a different story. Who is to say this is not just one thing to come from this car? A total heart transplant at 200 seems to be a bad sign...
I understand what everyone is saying about just replace the engine, but all the stories I have read seem to have engine replacements around 2,000 Miles and up...200 Miles is a different story. Who is to say this is not just one thing to come from this car? A total heart transplant at 200 seems to be a bad sign...
Jan 12, 2007 6:32:54 AM
- JimFlat6
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Re: Oil Leak
Porsche sadly failed to buy any of those surplus Stasi mirrors that were used to look under cars for contraband.
After they test drive the cars they probably dont get under the car to look for leaks. Its just done and they send it on.
I dont think the engine being a turkey is a sign that the whole car is. Google M96 engine failures and you will get hours of reading.
After they test drive the cars they probably dont get under the car to look for leaks. Its just done and they send it on.
I dont think the engine being a turkey is a sign that the whole car is. Google M96 engine failures and you will get hours of reading.
Re: 997 not an investment!
Quote:
nberry said:
If you do not get what you want, you might try the arbitration route. I am sure Porsche is a signatory to this dispute resolution device.
I don't know about the laws in the US but over here in Germany, the direct contact partner for a customer is always the dealer, NOT Porsche. Porsche doesn't even offer a warranty in Germany, they only offer some sort of dealer warranty which is executed in full by the dealer who then gets his money from Porsche based on his dealer contract.
It is a very annoying system in my opinion, the reason is simple: my dealer just closed down because apparently he didn't want to invest a fortune in new Porsche CI regulations. Now his former customers (like me) are stuck with him, even worse: since HE is still the one who has to offer the warranty repairs/etc. but he doesn't have all the means anymore (no more direct access to the Porsche system like other dealers), it not only takes time to get parts but it may even be a problem regarding more "complicated" and expensive repairs. Of course I have my ways to deal with Porsche directly, they're only aprox. 110 mls away from my home but this still is annoying.
What I'm getting to: if you want to sue over here somebody over a broken car, it has to be the dealer, not Porsche. Meaning: you start to fight with your dealer and this is a mess because even after you may win a court fight, your relationship to the dealership will be shattered to pieces.
Of course Porsche "works" in the background to help and sustain the dealer but the direct fight will be with the dealer. I highly recommend against it, especially if you want to stay with the brand Porsche and/or you don't have another dealer in your vicinity.
Yes, it is a good idea to "talk" to Porsche directly but it should be done in a friendly way, trying to find a solution which satisfies all sides. "Hostile" approaches are very often punished with stubborness, I heard of many cases against Porsche and apparently their law department, at least the one in Germany, is playing tough.
My experience with Porsche regarding "issues" is mixed but more positive than negative. A friendly but firm approach may be the best way to get something from Porsche. Directly involving a lawyer at an early stage may not be the best idea however but I would definetely get a legal advice from a lawyer, just in case he will be needed.
Re: 997 not an investment!
Quote:
RC said:
Meaning: you start to fight with your dealer and this is a mess because even after you may win a court fight, your relationship to the dealership will be shattered to pieces.
I agree with some of your post , but not the above . The dealership needs YOU the buyer , you dont need him and everyone should realise that . If you make any dealership think their doing you a favour then you will be on a loosing battle..
Jan 12, 2007 1:04:45 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
JimFlat6 said: Nick has been very successful using that angle of attack in California. I would not discount him or his strategy at all.
As I said previously, I have no intention of adding any further comments on Porsche930's tragic situation. He and his father are suffering enough disappointment as it is. I will leave that to the speculators here.
I will however comment on some of what I consider are the more misguided statements here on the more general issue of legal practice.
The fact that Nick has managed to earn a living by using this approach does not make it right. A lawyer only needs enough desperate/naive clients who are prepared to pay for legal advice in order to earn a living.
Best practice is determined by principle and not by how lucrative an approach might be.
Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but, no offence intended, I wonder how you are qualified to express any credible view as to how a lawyer should advise his client?
In any event, I think you are still confusing 2 things. It is one thing, as I have previously stated, to use every argument at one's disposal to convince a court of one's case (which one should obviously do) but it is quite another thing altogether to give one's client a 'rosier' view of his chances than is supported by existing case law. This is unethical and misleading to one's client whom one is supposed to be acting in the best interests of.
Maybe this is how some opportunistic US litigators (e.g. less scrupulous personal injury lawyers) attract clients because they prey on the fact that it's easy for a desperate and aggrieved client to make the mistake of preferring a lawyer who sounds more sympathetic and who 'talks up' the client's chances whether this is a true picture of the client's chances or not.
A highly able lawyer working in a very reputable firm would never adopt this approach.
Jan 12, 2007 1:04:54 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
nberry said: Sorry despite attending Cambridge, your argument will not resonate with me.
You still will not get a passing grade from me. That is reality.
Nick, I never expected to persuade you of my view. It takes principles and an open mind uncluttered by arrogance to accept another's point of view.
I note that you didn't (or should that read couldn't) counter my previous explanation of how a lawyer should advise his client.
As frayed previously pointed out, this is not a law exam where candidates are expected to sparkle or show 'something different' in an effort to score marks no matter how far-fetched the argument made. It's a real life problem where legal advice costs money. A cold calculation needs to be made on the merits of the case to determine whether it is worth fighting or not. Needlessly fighting hopeless cases often risks adverse costs awards being made against a litigant. I shouldn't need to remind you of that.
Anyway, who on earth are you to presume to grade me? How dare you. I don't consider you to be intellectually placed to do so. Have you ever attended an ivy league institution? Have you ever worked in a globally renowned law firm? There are plenty of mediocre lawyers out there qualified to practise law. What calibre of lawyer are you?
Jan 12, 2007 1:05:00 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
Leawood911 said: Frayed and Easy - (Easily frayed)
Keep schooling them Nick, you may improve the reputation of those Cambridge lawyers yet!
I am glad I chose not to go to Law school (esp. Cambridge).
I'm not even going to begin to dignify drivel like this with a response.
Jan 12, 2007 1:09:28 PM
- Leawood911
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Re: 997 not an investment!
Quote:
throt said:
I agree with some of your post , but not the above . The dealership needs YOU the buyer , you dont need him and everyone should realise that . If you make any dealership think their doing you a favour then you will be on a loosing battle..
throt may claim he did not do it but - he did it with the above post! 100% Correct -
Whatever happened to
Customer is King
Fiduciary responsibility
Customer Satisfaction
Ford would not do this to a customer - I guess only #1 with waiting lines can do this.
Note RC mentions Porsche is playing hardball with a tough legal team even after insulating itself. Here in the US we have the same system with PNA adding another layer between the dealers and Porsche. If your local dealer is an A** you can still buy elsewhere and make him do the warranty service. They just love it when you bring cars bought elsewhere for service. Not...
One last point, in case you are feeling sorry for the dealer - A good friend who sells cars for a living read this thread last night and just about fell over laughing when he read the post advocating going along with the dealer. I think the term he used was 'useful idiots'. According to him, and he knows best, the salesmen are taking bets right now to see if they can sucker him into the engine replacement. They view customers as lambs for the slaughter - especially rich ones buying Porsches! Diving into our wallets is a sport for them and they do it with a smile - and a lot of contempt for us at the same time. All of them would insist on a new car if this happened to them. Not saying these guys are not nice or bad humans, but to them this is business.
200 miles! That is the point 930S. Has the car title been applied for?
Jan 12, 2007 1:14:03 PM
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John H
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
Leawood911 said: Frayed and Easy - (Easily frayed)
Keep schooling them Nick, you may improve the reputation of those Cambridge lawyers yet!
I am glad I chose not to go to Law school (esp. Cambridge).
I'm not even going to begin to dignify drivel like this with a response.
Well said Easy, I know which Lawyer I would choose to represent me should I find myself in this situation!
Jan 12, 2007 1:19:22 PM
- Leawood911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:Quote:
Leawood911 said: Frayed and Easy - (Easily frayed)
Keep schooling them Nick, you may improve the reputation of those Cambridge lawyers yet!
I am glad I chose not to go to Law school (esp. Cambridge).
I'm not even going to begin to dignify drivel like this with a response.
Thanks for the non-response. By the way, if you had checked you would have found plenty of case law supporting the 'angles' Nick was using to paint a rosie picture. Car dealers are notorious for trying to sell damaged cars and there have been 1000's of similar cases where much more than a new car was awarded. I don't even have to check - prove me wrong. You caselaw argument works exactly against you -
looks bad for Cambridge, ivy league, major corp. I'm so glad you are not responding to me and my dribble - I am not worthy.
Cheers
Jan 12, 2007 1:38:34 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
Leawood911 said:
" ... there have been 1000's of similar cases where much more than a new car was awarded ..."
" ... I don't even have to check ..."
Perhaps you could explain how you can make a statement without checking the facts it is based upon?
Quote:
Leawood911 said:
" ... prove me wrong... "
If you make a statement, it is for you to back it up with proof. It is not another person's job to disprove your unsubstantiated assertion.
I had better stop here. This discussion has ceased to be worthwhile.
Jan 12, 2007 2:21:17 PM
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Porsche930S
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
RC, Our approach is in no way hostile. We are being firm but nice right now. My dad thinks Porsche will come out with their guns aimed and be very rude about it and I told him differently. I think Porsche will be nice and understanding but only willing to do an engine transplant. The employee's at the local Porsche dealership also are about 50/50 at what they think will happen. Also, the idea of suing has not even been brought up yet. We know this would be the last extreme possibility and let alone a very expensive and time consuming process.
It is true that we did not buy the car at the dealer in which we are getting it serviced, but we did try to deal with the local Pcar dealer here. We asked them if they had any T4S's in stock and they did not. This car was one of the launch vehicles so they are all the same pretty much; our local dealer's was sold before it even came in.
Leawood, in talking about the salesmen and employee's of car dealerships I can see what you mean but I trust my local dealer. I used to work there so I know the employee's and they are good guys, though my mom did say that when they dropped the car off last night our problem was the topic of the dealership. Everyone seemed to gather around and talk about it. The interest of this topic might be increased due to the fact that we did not buy the car there, my father has been to the local dealership many times looking at cars and also they know I love Porsche and a former employee. Also, the service center at the dealership is great and they have been nothing but understanding and very respectful throughout this whole ordeal.
Yes, the car has been titled.
Update: The car is in the shop getting looked at today. Local Service Rep. will be in the examine the car.
It is true that we did not buy the car at the dealer in which we are getting it serviced, but we did try to deal with the local Pcar dealer here. We asked them if they had any T4S's in stock and they did not. This car was one of the launch vehicles so they are all the same pretty much; our local dealer's was sold before it even came in.
Leawood, in talking about the salesmen and employee's of car dealerships I can see what you mean but I trust my local dealer. I used to work there so I know the employee's and they are good guys, though my mom did say that when they dropped the car off last night our problem was the topic of the dealership. Everyone seemed to gather around and talk about it. The interest of this topic might be increased due to the fact that we did not buy the car there, my father has been to the local dealership many times looking at cars and also they know I love Porsche and a former employee. Also, the service center at the dealership is great and they have been nothing but understanding and very respectful throughout this whole ordeal.
Yes, the car has been titled.
Update: The car is in the shop getting looked at today. Local Service Rep. will be in the examine the car.
Jan 12, 2007 2:28:02 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
O.K., I'm not going to read ALL of these posts, as I think I've got the "gist" after getting about half-way through..
As an avid car collector, mostly of ultra-low-mile virgin original examples, I understand your dad's disappointment... wholeheartedly...
However, if your dad's a reasonable fellow, he also realizes that situations pop up in life that fall under the catagory of "$hit happens", and the smarter players in these circumstances, work toward the best possible outcome, without unreasonably crapping on the other party involved, i.e. Porsche...
Being both a consumer and a businessman, I have a distinct disdain for people who don't want to "work" with other parties when good-faith is on the table, who have no inkling or care for fairness, or equitable relations.
I can only see justification for turning loose a lawyer with a baseball bat AFTER you've given Porsche the chance to remedy the situation. To knee-jerkingly sic the dogs on them is a nasty thing to do, it doesn't seem to me that they are trying to hose you in any way, at least not at this point. This kind of crap is becoming commonplace in the U.S., and all our European counterparts on this forum must collectively shake their heads when they see it.
My pops took delivery of a brand-new Ford GT. He picked it up in Dearborn Michigan, loaded it in his enclosed trailer, and brought it back to Florida. Upon unloading it, and doing a thorough due-diligence here in our own shop, he set out to drive it home for the first time...
Problem: It would repeatedly "pop-out" of 1st gear..
Our first guess was that it was a shift cable mal-adjustment. We ordered-up the factory tool for centering/locating the shift lever for adjusting the cables, and we bought a service manual. We found that the factory had the cables mal-adjusted. Once fixed, however, the car was still popping out of 1st gear..
That began a series of phone calls and questions, as we were placed in touch directly with a Ford GT engineer. It was determined, finally, that the problem existed in the transaxle. As is the norm, they did not wish to break-into the existing transaxle. They wanted to replace it entirely, so that they could dissect ours to see what went wrong back at the factory that manufactures them.
They also agreed that the transplant would take place, under full warranty, at OUR SHOP, with a Ford technician provided from our local dealership. That way, we could involve ourselves in the delicate job of disassembly and reassembly, ensuring that not a single bolt-head was scarred or marred, and that every torque spec and torque pattern was followed to the letter of the manual.
The replacement transaxle was stamped with our car's VIN # by Ford, so there will never be any evidence of the swap. Also, the tech that was provided (although fairly young) was sharp, willing to listen and learn (my dad and his friend Larry are a wealth of old-school knowledge), and he worked well along side them. The job took two careful days, and everybody actually seemed to be HAVING FUN, LOL!!!
The end result was that the car now performs flawlessly, nothing was harmed, and everybody is smiling. Furthermore, no lawyers were involved, Ford showed a surprising level of cooperation and reason to agree to our totally unheard of request to perform warranty work off-site, and we got through it.
Yes, it was a $165,000 car, we didn't drive it for months while all of this discussion and transaxle VIN-ing and trouble-shooting went on, and we devoted much of our own time and resources getting it done..
Who cares, at least we have our self-respect. We would not have felt right "demanding" a new car, when getting the one we had fixed was just a matter of working through it. We could have allowed them to fix it at the dealership, but, we felt that we'd rather volunteer our own time to ensure a good outcome, that was our prerogative.
The LAST thing you want to do, is to crack into that motor there at the dealership. They don't have the tools/instruments/processes/skills necessary to emulate what you'd get in a pre-assembled engine from the factory. Your leaky engine is an anomoly, I doubt lightning will strike twice.
Anyhow, the proper thing to do, in my mind, is to give them AT LEAST ONE CHANCE to remedy the car. Asking for a new car is a bit over-the-top at this juncture.
Kinda like having a house built, and the a/c unit takes an instant crap, and demanding that a new house be built....
As an avid car collector, mostly of ultra-low-mile virgin original examples, I understand your dad's disappointment... wholeheartedly...
However, if your dad's a reasonable fellow, he also realizes that situations pop up in life that fall under the catagory of "$hit happens", and the smarter players in these circumstances, work toward the best possible outcome, without unreasonably crapping on the other party involved, i.e. Porsche...
Being both a consumer and a businessman, I have a distinct disdain for people who don't want to "work" with other parties when good-faith is on the table, who have no inkling or care for fairness, or equitable relations.
I can only see justification for turning loose a lawyer with a baseball bat AFTER you've given Porsche the chance to remedy the situation. To knee-jerkingly sic the dogs on them is a nasty thing to do, it doesn't seem to me that they are trying to hose you in any way, at least not at this point. This kind of crap is becoming commonplace in the U.S., and all our European counterparts on this forum must collectively shake their heads when they see it.
My pops took delivery of a brand-new Ford GT. He picked it up in Dearborn Michigan, loaded it in his enclosed trailer, and brought it back to Florida. Upon unloading it, and doing a thorough due-diligence here in our own shop, he set out to drive it home for the first time...
Problem: It would repeatedly "pop-out" of 1st gear..
Our first guess was that it was a shift cable mal-adjustment. We ordered-up the factory tool for centering/locating the shift lever for adjusting the cables, and we bought a service manual. We found that the factory had the cables mal-adjusted. Once fixed, however, the car was still popping out of 1st gear..
That began a series of phone calls and questions, as we were placed in touch directly with a Ford GT engineer. It was determined, finally, that the problem existed in the transaxle. As is the norm, they did not wish to break-into the existing transaxle. They wanted to replace it entirely, so that they could dissect ours to see what went wrong back at the factory that manufactures them.
They also agreed that the transplant would take place, under full warranty, at OUR SHOP, with a Ford technician provided from our local dealership. That way, we could involve ourselves in the delicate job of disassembly and reassembly, ensuring that not a single bolt-head was scarred or marred, and that every torque spec and torque pattern was followed to the letter of the manual.
The replacement transaxle was stamped with our car's VIN # by Ford, so there will never be any evidence of the swap. Also, the tech that was provided (although fairly young) was sharp, willing to listen and learn (my dad and his friend Larry are a wealth of old-school knowledge), and he worked well along side them. The job took two careful days, and everybody actually seemed to be HAVING FUN, LOL!!!
The end result was that the car now performs flawlessly, nothing was harmed, and everybody is smiling. Furthermore, no lawyers were involved, Ford showed a surprising level of cooperation and reason to agree to our totally unheard of request to perform warranty work off-site, and we got through it.
Yes, it was a $165,000 car, we didn't drive it for months while all of this discussion and transaxle VIN-ing and trouble-shooting went on, and we devoted much of our own time and resources getting it done..
Who cares, at least we have our self-respect. We would not have felt right "demanding" a new car, when getting the one we had fixed was just a matter of working through it. We could have allowed them to fix it at the dealership, but, we felt that we'd rather volunteer our own time to ensure a good outcome, that was our prerogative.
The LAST thing you want to do, is to crack into that motor there at the dealership. They don't have the tools/instruments/processes/skills necessary to emulate what you'd get in a pre-assembled engine from the factory. Your leaky engine is an anomoly, I doubt lightning will strike twice.
Anyhow, the proper thing to do, in my mind, is to give them AT LEAST ONE CHANCE to remedy the car. Asking for a new car is a bit over-the-top at this juncture.
Kinda like having a house built, and the a/c unit takes an instant crap, and demanding that a new house be built....
Jan 12, 2007 2:29:21 PM
- Leawood911
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
easy -
First you attacked Nick with this central point -
'but it is quite another thing altogether to give one's client a 'rosier' view of his chances than is supported by existing case law.'
I offered an equally unproven (but likely more correct) statement to make a point...which you made brilliantly for me by writing - 'If you make a statement, it is for you to back it up with proof. '
- Thank you!
It appears to me that it would only one example in case law to prove you incorrect. My guess was simply that there are 1000's. (It's a big country)
If you respond please keep in mind that you have already insisted four times that you don't want to come out and play anymore.
Let's be professional car nuts about this and smoke a tire, bury the throttle, shift to high gear. This is all in good fun. We will all understand if you must respond again. It's OK. Think of it as a free therapy seesion.
First you attacked Nick with this central point -
'but it is quite another thing altogether to give one's client a 'rosier' view of his chances than is supported by existing case law.'
I offered an equally unproven (but likely more correct) statement to make a point...which you made brilliantly for me by writing - 'If you make a statement, it is for you to back it up with proof. '
- Thank you!
It appears to me that it would only one example in case law to prove you incorrect. My guess was simply that there are 1000's. (It's a big country)
If you respond please keep in mind that you have already insisted four times that you don't want to come out and play anymore.
Let's be professional car nuts about this and smoke a tire, bury the throttle, shift to high gear. This is all in good fun. We will all understand if you must respond again. It's OK. Think of it as a free therapy seesion.
Jan 12, 2007 2:38:47 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: 997 not an investment!
Quote:
throt said:Quote:
RC said:
Meaning: you start to fight with your dealer and this is a mess because even after you may win a court fight, your relationship to the dealership will be shattered to pieces.
I agree with some of your post , but not the above . The dealership needs YOU the buyer , you dont need him and everyone should realise that . If you make any dealership think their doing you a favour then you will be on a loosing battle..
Being a lawyer myself (haha, yet another one
) I always recommend to go for a two-step approach:(1) First try the firm, but friendly way (you may inform yourself about the legal situation beforehand, but never show up at the dealership together with a lawyer at this early stage - also avoid to refer to paragraphs of your purchase agreement or other legal stuff, yet alone mentioning the possibility of a court process) - just use your common sense and try to find an unanimous solution.
(2) If the friendly approach is not successful AND if you're sure that the law is on your side (as sure as one can be when going to court
), then - and only then - you may play it tough. Even if the law is on your side you may avoid the tough route anyway, if a lengthy and nerve wrecking court process + the amount of legal fees (if you cannot regain them from your counterpart, which seems to be common in the US for most cases) are out of proportion regarding what you may gain ($$$).If you play it tough the relationship with the dealer/repair-shop will be destroyed anyway (regardless of the outcome of any legal proceedings) - so either you switch to another dealer or (if not available nearby) you probably wave bye bye to Porsche
I'm afraid that it's too long ago since I've looked into the UCC stipulations
but I think Frayed's and Easy's analysis sound reasonable. I'm happy that Nick did not have any sayings regarding my law exam - I might have not passed it also (just like Easy) I've learned to go (1) analysis (2) strategy (3) tactics, not the other way round @ 930S: I'm very sorry for your bad luck and I can tell you that I'd really would be pi..d off, if such a thing would happen to me
But I'm under the impression that you think the majority of posters in this thread is defending Porsche rather than to support you. I'm sure that's not the case - most guys over here just try to help by referring to their own experiences.
Leaving legal aspects and negotiation tactics behind and looking at the case from a business/CRM perspective, you have all good reason to ask for a remedy, that suits your individual needs.
If you buy a 100k car and the engine falls apart right after you've mounted the numberplates, I can understand your wish to just return the car and get a new one.
I definitely would address this at the dealership and if they are clever (backed by PAG in the background), they should arrange everything to your liking (most efficient marketing they could do
). Unfortunately most companies didn't detect yet, that a major customer complaint can be turned into a success story, if correctly handled.Like said above - it's true that the dealership where you bought the car, may judge you as a "one time customer" only, but you may envisage future business, if he handles the case to your liking
. I know some will say that might negatively affect your relationship to your local P-repair-shop, but I'm not sure about that. I know quite some people who buy at "shop 1" and let the service do "shop 2" without facing any problems (I guess most repair shop departments are organized as proprietary profit centers anyway).I wish you the best of luck
Jan 12, 2007 2:41:41 PM
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Porsche930S
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Re: Wrong approach Nick
69boss, We are being nice and respectful towards Porsche. We both understand that [beep] happens. Also, I don't know if Porsche said to us "this stuff happens, here's a new engine" we would feel to confident in them. I love Porsche, I just can't see that as a true confidence builder. We would have no way to see what they Porsche mechanic would be doing at all times. The house does not have the capability to house an engine transplant and also my father and I do not have the time to be at the dealer the whole time to watch. We are not letting a lawyer out of the gates right now, everyone on this forum has just been debating the legal aspects which is very good information. We are solely dealing the dealer and Porsche right now.We have talked to my Uncle who is a lawyer to get some advice, but in no does this mean we are going immediately to court. We are trying to solve this internally before getting into a whole legal debate, which my father and I would not like to do.
Jan 12, 2007 2:51:30 PM
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Porsche930S
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- Reply to: Porsche930S
Re: Wrong approach Nick
Porsche-Jeck, I agree with your reasoning and tactics on how to handle the situation. All the discussions have been personal and one on one with the dealer, nothing legal yet. As I keep on saying, we would not like to take this to court.
I know everyone here has an opinion about this situation, either agreeing or disagreeing with our stance, but the information posted on here has been the most useful of all. Yes, it helps to see people agree/disagree, but it is not hurting to read everyone's opinions and thoughts on the whole situation to learn more about this situation. It always hurts to be close minded.
About the license plates...the oil leak was there before we took the paper ones off!
The car does have 200 Miles, but a service appointment and check out of the oil leak was scheduled at approx. 50 miles.
I know everyone here has an opinion about this situation, either agreeing or disagreeing with our stance, but the information posted on here has been the most useful of all. Yes, it helps to see people agree/disagree, but it is not hurting to read everyone's opinions and thoughts on the whole situation to learn more about this situation. It always hurts to be close minded.
About the license plates...the oil leak was there before we took the paper ones off!
The car does have 200 Miles, but a service appointment and check out of the oil leak was scheduled at approx. 50 miles.
Jan 12, 2007 2:51:53 PM
- frayed
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- Loc: Austin, TX , United States
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- Reply to: 69bossnine
Re: Wrong approach Nick
As already stated, I will no longer comment on the legal side of this, as it appears futile. My point from the beginning is that it is quite reasonable to accept a new crate motor from Porsche; I wholeheartedly agree with 69bossnine's rather balanced approach and the tips he provided on mitigating any long term valuation effects of the transplant. As I have stated from the beginning, you do not want the original engine fixed locally and the fight for a new car can be ugly. Dad is likely to damage relationships, burn a lot of time, and be emotionally drained. On other hand, patience and reflection might just reveal to your dad that a new motor really should not jade his view of the car, and he'll save himself a major headache. I know from experience that fights like these, even if you end up with what you want, are oftentimes not worth the process. A honest counselor will advise Dad on the pros and cons in this respect, and those looking to churn will likely not.
Once the lawyers are involved, the situation can easily turn into a lose lose situation harming all but the lawyer churning fees; the baseball bat should be used prudently.
EasyRider, be confident in knowing you operate your practice with integrity, honesty, and humility. Leave the arrogant extortionist-based practice to those with the disposition and the willing client base, and who operate in venue and area of law that permits one to make a living in that manner.
Jeck, well said
Once the lawyers are involved, the situation can easily turn into a lose lose situation harming all but the lawyer churning fees; the baseball bat should be used prudently.
EasyRider, be confident in knowing you operate your practice with integrity, honesty, and humility. Leave the arrogant extortionist-based practice to those with the disposition and the willing client base, and who operate in venue and area of law that permits one to make a living in that manner.
Jeck, well said
Jan 12, 2007 2:59:22 PM
- 69bossnine
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- Reply to: Porsche930S
Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
Porsche930S said:
69boss, We are being nice and respectful towards Porsche. We both understand that [beep] happens. Also, I don't know if Porsche said to us "this stuff happens, here's a new engine" we would feel to confident in them. I love Porsche, I just can't see that as a true confidence builder. We would have no way to see what they Porsche mechanic would be doing at all times. The house does not have the capability to house an engine transplant and also my father and I do not have the time to be at the dealer the whole time to watch. We are not letting a lawyer out of the gates right now, everyone on this forum has just been debating the legal aspects which is very good information. We are solely dealing the dealer and Porsche right now.We have talked to my Uncle who is a lawyer to get some advice, but in no does this mean we are going immediately to court. We are trying to solve this internally before getting into a whole legal debate, which my father and I would not like to do.
I did not mean to insinuate that you were not already handling things fairly, I was simply stating my outlook "overall" given the range of replies and attitudes your initial post spawned.
I also understand that most folks don't have the facilities or the time to oversee such a job as we did. I was just relating an experience to illustrate that sometimes, given the opportunity and the patience, things can turn out alright without resorting to war.
Seems to me you're on the right path, and hopefully it all works out well. This kind of stuff always looks far dimmer and bleaker entering into it, than it usually is in retrospect once you're remedied and down the road. I remember how I was flipping-out when I took delivery of my special-ordered car, after months of waiting, and the damned thing wouldn't go into reverse!! LOL!!!
Then there's always the unfortunate few who experience an ongoing tragic sequence of events that the occassional "lemon" combined with incompetent grease-monkeys causing more problems than they fix.
Here's hoping that won't be you and your dad!!
Jan 12, 2007 3:10:38 PM
- 69bossnine
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Jan 12, 2007 3:20:35 PM
- MMD
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- Reply to: Porsche930S
Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
Porsche930S said:
The car does have 200 Miles, but a service appointment and check out of the oil leak was scheduled at approx. 50 miles.
This low mileage makes the whole thing a different bird as far as I'm concerned.
It "proves" the car never should have left the factory and was sold to you as defective; it had zero "quality" and minus 1000% "Excellence" when delivered to you.
The fact that they don't just replace the car and admit their glaring mistakes and create good will among you guys AND the rest of us here and anybody else who hears this story is disgusting.
Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
MMD said:
[...] This low mileage makes the whole thing a different bird as far as I'm concerned.
It "proves" the car never should have left the factory and was sold to you as defective; it had zero "quality" and minus 1000% "Excellence" when delivered to you.
The fact that they don't just replace the car and admit their glaring mistakes and create good will among you guys AND the rest of us here and anybody else who hears this story is disgusting.
Exactly my point of view. Good luck on that issue!
Re: Wrong approach Nick
IMO if you make a big enough fuss they'll probably replace the car. Thing is, we'll never hear about it because they'll probably make you sign something so that you keep quiet about it. They don't want people thinking they're in the habit of giving you a new car for anything.
Jan 12, 2007 4:39:36 PM
- 69bossnine
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- Reply to: SrfCity
Re: Wrong approach Nick
If the damage/defect was something that was NOT a "bolt-in" replaceable item, I'd demand a different car, i.e. serious paint/body defect, sub-par paint, you know, stuff you can't "fix" without crumming up the factory finish and permanantly alterning it from what an as-new car would be.
But an engine is a bolt-in, and if you get a brand-new factory unit in a crate, the only remaining variable/concern is the service tech who installs it.
Now the tech that USED to work at my local Porsche dealer was a veteran, extremely dedicated, and likely would have done a superior job buttoning everything together properly and solidly, without damage, than the factory workers likely accomplish themselves, under-the-gun, keeping up with production.
But now that he's gone, I'll admit, I'd be apprehensive. But I'd still be leaning toward giving them a chance, rather than demanding a new car as my default plan, WAITING AGAIN, and opening the definite possibility that the next car has its own set of potential "problems".
A good friend of mine had a defective engine warranty replaced in a Mustang Mach 1 (2003 model). The new crate motor has been flawless for over 70,000 miles now, and was 3 tenths and 3 mph STRONGER at the dragstrip than the one that came out!
But an engine is a bolt-in, and if you get a brand-new factory unit in a crate, the only remaining variable/concern is the service tech who installs it.
Now the tech that USED to work at my local Porsche dealer was a veteran, extremely dedicated, and likely would have done a superior job buttoning everything together properly and solidly, without damage, than the factory workers likely accomplish themselves, under-the-gun, keeping up with production.
But now that he's gone, I'll admit, I'd be apprehensive. But I'd still be leaning toward giving them a chance, rather than demanding a new car as my default plan, WAITING AGAIN, and opening the definite possibility that the next car has its own set of potential "problems".
A good friend of mine had a defective engine warranty replaced in a Mustang Mach 1 (2003 model). The new crate motor has been flawless for over 70,000 miles now, and was 3 tenths and 3 mph STRONGER at the dragstrip than the one that came out!
Jan 12, 2007 5:02:15 PM
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Porsche930S
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Jan 12, 2007 5:02:37 PM
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Porsche930S
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- Reply to: Ferdie
Re: Wrong approach Nick
Quote:
Ferdie said:Quote:
MMD said:
[...] This low mileage makes the whole thing a different bird as far as I'm concerned.
It "proves" the car never should have left the factory and was sold to you as defective; it had zero "quality" and minus 1000% "Excellence" when delivered to you.
The fact that they don't just replace the car and admit their glaring mistakes and create good will among you guys AND the rest of us here and anybody else who hears this story is disgusting.
Exactly my point of view. Good luck on that issue!
Completely agree and also our point of view.
Jan 12, 2007 5:11:31 PM
- rhino
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Jan 12, 2007 5:14:23 PM
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nberry
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Wrong approach Nick
My My you are awefully sensitive and defensive. The law school exam reference was tongue in cheek. However, I am beginning to get a better sense of where you are coming from. You regales us with "credentials" and hope we will be so impressed that you will have the aura of infallability of the Pope. Sorry I am not impressed or intimated.
BTW, your legal skills need polishing. To assert this is a case of specific performance is all I need to know.
BTW, your legal skills need polishing. To assert this is a case of specific performance is all I need to know.
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