Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: owner - Page6

Jan 11, 2007 8:27:22 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Oil Leak

Quote:
Porsche930S said:
he and I both feel that getting a new engine in a 200 Mile car will feel weird.

This is the very point , because you will never feel it as one . And secondly resale (your best argument), because if you ask me if I was interested in buying it after the engine fitment then I would have to say ""NO"" (sorry)..Its no different to buying a washing machine and it going bang after 2 washes , you dont send it in for repair , you simply get a new replacement and that should be the case regardless of what country you live in . This is what's known as CUSTOMER SATISFACTION and Porsche should rise to it to allow you to fully enjoy your purchase , any other way just stinks imo...

Also no disrespect but I would disregard all these legal post's on this thread , because your Dad should go with his gut . Its whats known as principles..

Good luck to you both....

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Jan 11, 2007 9:08:27 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: 997 not an investment!

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
nick, sorry, you're arguing for an equitable remedy here of specific performance. That would only be available if monetary damages were not an adequate remedy. Here, repair (the alternative to monetary damages) is sufficient to put the customer in the position he ought to be in i.e. the rest of the car is fine (having only been used 200 miles) and the engine will be new. As a non-unique item of personalty, that's the same product he would have got had his car been flawless from the start. Resale value is a speculative issue. Emotional distress etc can be remedied by compensation too. I fail to see how he can base a claim on the balance of probabilities (i.e >50%) that the only performance acceptable from the dealer is not just to supply a car but instead a 'perfect' car.

Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.

This is not a specific performance issue (I could spend time explaining why it is not but why bore the readers ) though many assume so. It contractual in nature and the soley issue is whether the buyer has a remedy including replacing the car. Some state laws may allow it. Other's may not. Some may refer the matter to Arbitration. The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

Nick -
Thank God! This is GREAT! We need to give 930 some encouragement to get this done right. Until you picked up the ax I was wondering if all lawyers spent so much time shooting down their clients hopes. You are 100% correct that looking for ways to win is more important than finding excuses not to fight. - Hence I recommended a 'Denny Crane' type.

Thanks for your support too Throt - nice hair.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:17:59 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said: Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.

This is not a specific performance issue (I could spend time explaining why it is not but why bore the readers ) though many assume so. It contractual in nature and the soley issue is whether the buyer has a remedy including replacing the car. Some state laws may allow it. Other's may not. Some may refer the matter to Arbitration. The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

Nick, I fundamentally disagree with you.

When first discussing a case with a client, the aim is not to search high and low for arguments to make the client feel there is 'a mere chance'. One needs to give an honest assessment of what the likely outcome would be if the case were adjudicated by a court based on previous case law. All I did was offer a view as to what the likely outcome would be. I have not "rejected his chances out of hand".

The approach you have suggested of trying to make the client feel he has a case worth fighting irrespective of what the likely outcome might be is exactly why non-lawyers (and lawyers outside the US) have such huge contempt for US litigators who will try just about any argument they can in the hope that just maybe one of these arguments might fly. No wonder your society has become so litigious where one simply needs to find a lawyer prepared to fight a case no matter how fanciful its chances might be. That, in my view, is "poor lawyering" since it entertains false hopes and leads to incurring unnecessary legal costs in hopeless litigation.

Having given an honest assessment of the likely outcome to the client, the lawyer's role, if the case is pursued, is to fight it as hard as possible using every argument at one's disposal.

Yes, I am a lawyer and, with all due respect to you, no, I don't need any advice from you as to how to practise law. I have a law degree from Cambridge University and many years experience of practice. Heaven help your clients if you delude yourself and your client into a merry dance. I shudder to think where you learnt the law and how to practise it.

Porsche930S, my apologies for this unintended argument. I only had your best interests at heart. I hope you get the best outcome possible. I will withdraw now from this thread and let the 'speculators' talk instead.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:21:01 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: 997 not an investment!

Quote:
nberry said:

Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.

This is not a specific performance issue (I could spend time explaining why it is not but why bore the readers ) though many assume so. It contractual in nature and the soley issue is whether the buyer has a remedy including replacing the car. Some state laws may allow it. Other's may not. Some may refer the matter to Arbitration. The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

Please. We are talking about dollars on the order of 5k at most (for the sake of argument). Something like this is not even worth the time of a quality, experienced attorney. To the contrary on your post, an attorney billing at today's billing rates is robbing his client if he doesn't tell him that his fees will FAR outstrip the benefit. You write as though we are talking about a murder case.

Further, there is not a state that I am aware of that requires arbitration; that is set by contract b/t the parties. Most states follow a version of the UCC (although it's been many, many years since I looked at it). Looking at the sales contract, arbitration might be in there; however, you won't find provisions for complete car replacement in the contract.

He may be able to get a buyback based on the lemon laws, but I'll bet the dealer has strong working knowledge of his state's laws and will have the car repaired within the framework of them.

The textbook answer to the original question posed is that the owner is entitled to engine replacement and compensation for any diminished value that he can prove. If he gets beyond that, it will be out of a gesture of goodwill from Porsche.

Now, taking a break from REALITY, if I were posed the question hypothetically in a law school exam, I would sparkle with creative legal solutions. But that's in the academic world where legal advice is free.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:22:27 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
Quote:
nberry said: Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.

This is not a specific performance issue (I could spend time explaining why it is not but why bore the readers ) though many assume so. It contractual in nature and the soley issue is whether the buyer has a remedy including replacing the car. Some state laws may allow it. Other's may not. Some may refer the matter to Arbitration. The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

Nick, I fundamentally disagree with you.

When first discussing a case with a client, the aim is not to search high and low for arguments to make the client feel there is 'a mere chance'. One needs to give an honest assessment of what the likely outcome would be if the case were adjudicated by a court based on previous case law. All I did was offer a view as to what the likely outcome would be. I have not "rejected his chances out of hand".

The approach you have suggested of trying to make the client feel he has a case worth fighting irrespective of what the likely outcome might be is exactly why non-lawyers (and lawyers outside the US) have such huge contempt for US litigators who will try just about any argument they can in the hope that just maybe one of these arguments might fly. No wonder your society has become so litigious where one simply needs to find a lawyer prepared to fight a case no matter how fanciful its chances might be. That, in my view, is "poor lawyering" since it entertains false hopes and leads to incurring unnecessary legal costs in hopeless litigation.

Having given an honest assessment of the likely outcome to the client, the lawyer's role, if the case is pursued, is to fight it as hard as possible using every argument at one's disposal.

Yes, I am a lawyer and, with all due respect to you, no, I don't need any advice from you as to how to practise law. I have a law degree from Cambridge University and many years experience of practice. Heaven help your clients if you delude yourself and your client into a merry dance. I shudder to think where you learnt the law and how to practise it.

Porsche930S, my apologies for this unintended argument. I only had your best interests at heart. I hope you get the best outcome possible. I will withdraw now from this thread and let the 'speculators' talk instead.

Very well stated. Cheers.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:33:34 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Well said Easy! Cambridge? Wow, you must be the smartest man in the forum!

Is "lawyering" an actual word? Or does someone speak bad "American"?

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Jan 11, 2007 9:40:00 PM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: 997 not an investment!

Quote:
nberry said:
Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.
The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

"poor lawyering"?
"create ways to give your client a chance"?

jeff/frayed - the voice of reason

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Jan 11, 2007 9:42:20 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Nick has been very successful using that angle of attack in California. I would not discount him or his strategy at all.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:48:46 PM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Nick has been very successful using that angle of attack in California. I would not discount him or his strategy at all.

"angle"
i like straight shooting!
but i guess it all depends on which side of a suit you are usually on!

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Jan 11, 2007 9:52:54 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Sorry despite attending Cambridge, your argument will not resonate with me. Both you and Frayed basically told him to accept what Porsche wanted to offer him WITHOUT considering possible options.He may have several excellent legal avenues but reading your responses one would believe he had none. Some may even include reimbursement for attorney fees.

You still will not get a passing grade from me. That is reality.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:55:44 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Defective before sale?

Could you determine with the help of another dealer that the engine was defective when the car was sold?

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Jan 11, 2007 9:56:01 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: icon

Re: Wrong approach Nick

No bickering , guys

..I might have to dish out some ban's..

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Jan 11, 2007 9:57:06 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: frayed

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Frayed and Easy - (Easily frayed)

Nick is viewing this from the standpoint of helping 930S not Porsche. 930S is looking for a way to not accept the replacement engine or void the sale. Listen to your client! He is not interested in all the reasons why NOT and how he should be happy getting screwed. (note that he has picked up on the fact that a USED REBUILT engine will be bolted into a new car) - he may not have even applied for a title yet.

Throt was 100% correct - this is about principle. If the state allows for vehicle replacement in such a case Porsche will not let the customer know this but a good attorney in that state will. Just for kicks try to argue the other side guys. Nick rocks! I want him as my lawyer.

Keep schooling them Nick, you may improve the reputation of those Cambridge lawyers yet!

No, I am not a lawyer and I am glad I chose not to go to Law school (esp. Cambridge). I develop software - seems to be much more logical.

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Jan 11, 2007 9:59:30 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

When you buy a toaster, if it doesn't work, you can get your money back or get a new one.

Shouldn't that be even more true when buying a 100 thousand dollar car that tanks from day 1, let alone a Porsche.

Please tell me that is NOT what they mean by "there is no substitute"

There are numerous posts saying that reallistically, this customer has no recourse beyond the engine swap. Having said that, there SHOULD be, and that's why it stings so much.

Porsche should do better. Here's a customer they are likely to lose forever.

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Jan 11, 2007 10:05:32 PM

1st997: Co-Pilot; Loc: CT; Posts: 272, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 21, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

I've been following this tread, and am saddened that 930S and his father have to have this unwanted experience with there new (what was supposed to be) joy.

I'm from the school of "it's principal" and mostly "you don't get if you don't ask".

Not too many businesses that I know, give out anything 'free' - you have to ask for something, and should.

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Jan 11, 2007 10:09:03 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

So sorry NBerry that I'm not nearly in need of validation.

But it's all good.

Nevertheless, I deem you are deserving of an F on my exam, as your analysis of the facts is wanting and appear to have substituted instead hyperbole.

Like easy, I'm done. I am hopeful that you can counsel the original poster in getting what he wants, b/c he is likely now more confused than ever.

Cheers.

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Jan 11, 2007 10:13:13 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
When you buy a toaster, if it doesn't work, you can get your money back or get a new one.

Shouldn't that be even more true when buying a 100 thousand dollar car that tanks from day 1, let alone a Porsche.

Please tell me that is NOT what they mean by "there is no substitute"

There are numerous posts saying that reallistically, this customer has no recourse beyond the engine swap. Having said that, there SHOULD be, and that's why it stings so much.

Porsche should do better. Here's a customer they are likely to lose forever.

I like it. "There is No substitute" - Perhaps this explains why they are the most profitable car company in the world.

And let me get this straight - He should accept this car to maintain good relations with the dealer for the future. Should a rape victim be nice to the rapist so that the sex will be less violent next time? That's Crap! Porsche should be nice to him so that they keep a paying customer (and all of us). I guarantee there is enough margin even in the US to allow Porsche to keep this car and sell it to someone else. So what if he choses to wait months for another car.

In this world you do not get anything unless you ask! Those who do not ask are almost as foolish as those who insist you don't ask.

I am glad Nick and Frayed did not go to medical school -

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Jan 11, 2007 10:39:06 PM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
nberry said:Sorry despite attending Cambridge, your argument will not resonate with me. Both you and Frayed basically told him to accept what Porsche wanted to offer him WITHOUT considering possible options.He may have several excellent legal avenues but reading your responses one would believe he had none. Some may even include reimbursement for attorney fees.

nick?
name dropping now!?

i went offline after making the above post and thought the post may have been percieved in a dif way than intended.
since i am usually being "angled at" while not doing any "angling" myself, and writing nuisance checks that in a reasonable world i would not be writing, i can't appreciate that line of thought.
i have no knowledge of nick's practice, and nothing was meant toward nick personally, whom i consider a "postboard buddy" and hope he feels the same.
i was really merely pointing out that i appreciated jeff/frayed's "reasonable thought" posts, and that it was nice to see them coming from an attorney.
i hope the original posters father finds satisfaction in his situation.
jeff

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Jan 11, 2007 10:47:14 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: icon

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
icon said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Nick has been very successful using that angle of attack in California. I would not discount him or his strategy at all.

"angle"
i like straight shooting!
but i guess it all depends on which side of a suit you are usually on!

Nicks angle seems to go straight to the question - and that is the contract itself.

Who here finds it reasonable to unknowingly purchase defective new merchandise?

And is replacement of it with a reconditioned item fair?

The car brand new as recieved was not in order and a repair that diminishes value seems even more out of order.

Porsche is well aware of the manufacturing defects regarding some 997 engines. They also have the ability
to make this customer happy.

Give the man a new car for gods sakes.

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Jan 11, 2007 10:53:41 PM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

owner

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:Nicks angle seems to got straight to the question - and that is the contract itself.

Who here finds it reasonable to unkowingly purchase defective merchandise?

And is replacement of it with a reconditioned item fair?

The car brand new as receieved was not in order and a repair that diminishes value seems even more out of order.

Porsche is well aware of the manufacturing defects regarding some 997 engines. They also have the ability
to make this customer happy.

Give the man a new car for gods sakes.

jim, i don't know if you had read my previous post b/f posting this but one thing needs to be pointed out.
we have yet to hear a complaint from the owner of the vehicle.

best

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Jan 11, 2007 10:59:21 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: icon

Re: owner

Jeff, you are correct. What we have here is his son acting as proxy. However, I believe he is being genuine and have no reason to doubt him.

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Jan 11, 2007 11:11:57 PM

ScottL: Junior; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 26, 2005; Reply to: icon

Re: owner

If I had just bought a new Porsche with a defective engine I would (politely but firmly) demand an immediate refund or a prompt replacement. No ifs or buts.

This is Porsche's problem. Not the customer.

I would go legal immediately if the dealer didn't comply.

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Jan 11, 2007 11:35:00 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Oil Leak

Quote:
Porsche930S said:
Seriously, how would you feel if a car you have been waiting for and just paid large numbers for had a major (one of the worst) engine malfunctions you can have? Would you be confident in the car?

Porsche930S,

I would feel happy it was covered under warranty and I was given a loaner car made by the same company. If, after the car is fixed, no other major malfunction occurred for the next 200 miles, I would be confident. Cheer up, mate. After all, your father does have another 911 in the garage that is dying to spin the odometer.

Please do not give Le Chef a reason to squeeze into his old outfit:

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Jan 11, 2007 11:49:50 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6920, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Oil Leak

No way a German Pope is going to battle against Porsche.
This thread is great! I have the 'new car' edging out the 'motor replacement' by a drop (of 0-40).
930S - Get your dad on-line and let him chime in! He is my Hero if he stands his ground!

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Jan 12, 2007 12:34:01 AM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Oil Leak

So I see now that people are talking about how I am acting as a proxy for my father. Well, my father is not exactly computer savvy and also he doesn't even really know what an online forum is most likely. I am an huge Porsche lover so I thought I could share this news with you guys, so if you guys are looking "down" upon during this, please don't. Yes I am young, but we all here for one reason, we all love Porsche's and cars.

Secondly, I will have to get my dad on here. He is pretty busy and he will have to read about 9 pages of responses before he could respond!

The car is at the service center and is waiting to be inspected tomorrow. I will let you guys know when we find anything out.

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Jan 12, 2007 12:34:53 AM

Porsche930S: Senior; Loc: KY , United States; Posts: 583, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Defective before sale?

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Could you determine with the help of another dealer that the engine was defective when the car was sold?

Yes, the service center said this was a problem that occured at the factory. There is nothing that we could have done to the engine to create this problem.

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Jan 12, 2007 12:57:32 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Defective before sale?

best of luck

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Jan 12, 2007 3:50:46 AM

jamesaug: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 414, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2005; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Wrong approach Nick

Quote:
Leawood911 said:
let me get this straight - He should accept this car to maintain good relations with the dealer for the future. Should a rape victim be nice to the rapist so that the sex will be less violent next time?

Wow, what a response! What I really meant was that:
1) The dealer should have offered a replacement car OR engine swap on principle...
...but...
2) If 1^ does not occur, He should accept the replacement engine offer because its just the engine and not the whole car that is broke..would you try and get a new car because the Brakes explode after 200miles? They are just as important as the engine (try argue otherwise!)...

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Jan 12, 2007 4:32:41 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Defective before sale?

Quote:
Porsche930S said:
Quote:
Le Chef said:
Could you determine with the help of another dealer that the engine was defective when the car was sold?

Yes, the service center said this was a problem that occured at the factory. There is nothing that we could have done to the engine to create this problem.

How did this problem get past the factory? What is the 20 miles romp good for?

I had my engine replaced at 10,000 miles. The car was ready for pickup the next business day. No problems at all except having to break-in the engine again.

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Jan 12, 2007 5:37:34 AM

SVNSVN: Rennteam Pro; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 2994, Gallery; Registered on: May 22, 2005; Reply to: Porsche930S

Re: Oil Leak

Quote:
Porsche930S said:
So I see now that people are talking about how I am acting as a proxy for my father. Well, my father is not exactly computer savvy and also he doesn't even really know what an online forum is most likely. I am an huge Porsche lover so I thought I could share this news with you guys, so if you guys are looking "down" upon during this, please don't. Yes I am young, but we all here for one reason, we all love Porsche's and cars.

Secondly, I will have to get my dad on here. He is pretty busy and he will have to read about 9 pages of responses before he could respond!

The car is at the service center and is waiting to be inspected tomorrow. I will let you guys know when we find anything out.

Best of luck! I hope this is resolved in the very best way for you and your Dad , and you're able to start enjoying your car very soon.

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Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53690	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	25100	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21173	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19502	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16591	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	13742	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11252	55

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Re: 997 not an investment!

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Defective before sale?

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