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    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    MrBonus said:
    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Christ some of you are an anal, misinformed bunch.

    An engine swap is NO BIG DEAL. Getting into the internals of the motor is. Engine swaps are direct bolt up, no voodoo, paint by numbers.



    I agree. This thread seems like one gross overreaction after another. I had my transmission replaced a few months after I got the car and never thought twice about it. I have daily driven it for two years without a single issue.



    +2

    Have them put in a new engine and in no time all will be forgotten- you'll be way too busy enjoying your beautiful car. Too bad it didn't happen closer to the end of the warranty.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Fray -

    Take it easy -

    I was trying to make the point that he was entitled to a new, at least equal car in my OPINION - I conceed the GT3 and extras were a stretch but hey - trying to make a point here.

    As for my reasoning I thought I provided it, this is the scenario -
    He paid 100K for the car - let's say the dealer knew the car would need an engine replacement before delivery (which was mentioned in the post as a possibility) and passed it off on him anyway thinking the buyer would take it away and they would not be stuck with it -

    Given that specific circumstance would you still think the dealer should not give him a different car?

    Factor into your response that the crate motors are rebuilt, used motors. Granted they may be hand assembled and perhaps to a higher standard than original but his car WILL be compromised by this (It's not just in his head - he is a collector - his '86 911 is worth more with it's original motor.) By the way, I love how all the owner with past replacements have rationalized their dealings in such a positive manner. I would too, but it's not quite applicable to this specific case, in my opinion.

    You are correct that Porsches are a great car - this is what he paid for BUT not what he got which makes this even more wrong. It would be no big deal if this was a Ford Mustang (although there would a lot of numbers matching freaks upset with you as well)- It's exactly because Porsche are such a great company that I do think he deserves to own a 100% perfect car - which is what he paid for. As a collector he knows an engine replacement is not desireable and this is the only time in the cars life when it would be reasonable to expect a new car. As an atty it would be best to focus the factors the buyer expressed as being important.

    Again - why would the dealer not want to sell his car to someone else if the car is so perfect? There is plenty of margin in the car for the dealer to do this. It's because the dealer does not want to lose money, simple! - But why is it again that the buyer of a 100K car be stuck with this problem? Because, as you put it - he has one of finest Porsches ever produced' I'm not certain I follow your logic at all there.

    Porsche should be embarassed about the whole deal and give him a new car. The positive PR will help them more than the minor cost.

    I give up. I own a 997 that cost 100K and you are correct it is a great car. Certainly I would love a crate motor now but NOT WHEN BRAND NEW! This is a specific set of circumstances and this person is a collector. It matters to him and I can understand this. I'm trying to help him by seeing this from his perspective and assuring him that his expectation are not totally un-reasonable. Give the guy some support to attain the best possible outcome rather than shoot down his hopes of preserving the collectability of the car. And yes, any car can be collected. It may not be an investment in the short term but thanks to long sighted collectors there are still some great 'un-expected' collectibles remaining.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    I am the furthest thing from a lawyer, but I don't see where Porsche has a legal obligation to replace the car. They certainly have a legal obligation to properly fix the car - and replacing the motor will do that. A lawyer will need to prove that the car remains damaged after the engine change. Likely tough to prove.

    Also, I don't think Porsche wants the precedent of replacing an entire car when an engine goes bad. Word like that tends to get around.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    sell the car and buy the stock

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Why is someone buying a T4S as an investment?

    That's the part I don't get, and it's the part that makes the whole thing problematic.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    If they insist on replacing the engine (which I personally don't mind), I would demand a replacement loaner vehicle of similar value.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    We bought the car in St. Louis while on a trip, so that would be Parktown Porsche

    The service center we went to is Beechmont Porsche. I used to work at Beechmont (and also Northland) so they took care of us.

    Along the investment lines, I mean as a personal investment, one to make him happy. I know he wouldn't consider selling it (if the car didn't have this problem). He still has his '86 911 with 14,000 miles!

    We have not heard back from Beechmont yet. They said it will most likely be tomorrow that we will know something.

    What are your thoughts guys? Do you think there is a chance for a new car in this extreme case? 200 Miles with a production engine problem? Do you think Porsche would just refund?

    About the engine replacement...I know they can drop them in and drop them out very easily...but it would just not "feel" the same to drive it, knowing that you had to replace the engine at 200 Miles, you know? I have no doubt the mechanics would be able to perform this surgery without a hitch. My dad also thinks that during the transplant, things will get knicked and scratched and all those kind of things, and if you haven't figured it out yet...He's kind of anal about his cars being clean and scratch/dent free, so this engine problem has put us all in a daze.

    I'll update as soon as I know anything else.



    I totally agree with your assessment about P-car being investment, but ENRON??!! Let's leave them out of it. There are no assets at Enron and a Porsche can be sold at a loss at least. Enron stock certificate can be used a Charmin replacement (or maybe it will go up in value over time).

    Cheers.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Leawood, no offense. Don't take my posts personally. I'm looking at the situation through the eyes of an adjudicator, and am not swayed by the fella's personal feelings of getting screwed. This is a modern, mass produced 997, not an already appreciated classic. Had something like this happended to a Hemi-Cuda that trades into the 7 figures and there had been some sort of latent defect known to the seller but not buyer, there's certainly measurable damages.

    But a new Porsche with a replaced motor? Its value today is not compromised at all. He should talk to car wholesalers about its value pre and post heart transplant. The numbers will be the same.

    Without being able to show measurable devaluation *today* he has a thin case for a new car. As for future value, that's pure speculation.

    Finally, I don't think that people who have had motor/tranny replacements are rationalizing anything. It's not a big deal, and complete component replacement (motor, tranny) is FAR more desirable than surgery on that component.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    deddie said:
    I am the furthest thing from a lawyer, but I don't see where Porsche has a legal obligation to replace the car. They certainly have a legal obligation to properly fix the car - and replacing the motor will do that. A lawyer will need to prove that the car remains damaged after the engine change. Likely tough to prove.

    Also, I don't think Porsche wants the precedent of replacing an entire car when an engine goes bad. Word like that tends to get around.



    BINGO

    Send in the troops!

    I think it's time we sent in the troops. But only after we've nuked the dealer first. Let these guys have it I say! And then let's roll through the southern states until we get to Atlanta. A couple of Blackhawks and our finest should see off PNA and then we can make the big move to Germany and take out Stuttgart.

    I've also had the Pope on the line and he is outraged by this and has promised to excommunicate Weideking and any of the Porsche management that do not submit to ritual flogging with camshaft chains.

    After all that we can send in the Pretorian Attorney Guard and they can seize the last of the shiny undriven Carrera GT's for our poor suffering buddy here on Rennteam as compensation for his unacceptable emotional distress.

    Re: Send in the troops!

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    I think it's time we sent in the troops. But only after we've nuked the dealer first. Let these guys have it I say! And then let's roll through the southern states until we get to Atlanta. A couple of Blackhawks and our finest should see off PNA and then we can make the big move to Germany and take out Stuttgart.

    I've also had the Pope on the line and he is outraged by this and has promised to excommunicate Weideking and any of the Porsche management that do not submit to ritual flogging with camshaft chains.

    After all that we can send in the Pretorian Attorney Guard and they can seize the last of the shiny undriven Carrera GT's for our poor suffering buddy here on Rennteam as compensation for his unacceptable emotional distress.




    Hmmm. I'll gently suggest that your proposed course of action might be slightly excessive. No need to get the Pope involved.

    Re: Send in the troops!

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    I think it's time we sent in the troops. But only after we've nuked the dealer first. Let these guys have it I say! And then let's roll through the southern states until we get to Atlanta. A couple of Blackhawks and our finest should see off PNA and then we can make the big move to Germany and take out Stuttgart.

    I've also had the Pope on the line and he is outraged by this and has promised to excommunicate Weideking and any of the Porsche management that do not submit to ritual flogging with camshaft chains.

    After all that we can send in the Pretorian Attorney Guard and they can seize the last of the shiny undriven Carrera GT's for our poor suffering buddy here on Rennteam as compensation for his unacceptable emotional distress.




    Hmmm. I'll gently suggest that your proposed course of action might be slightly excessive. No need to get the Pope involved.



    But he called me and INSISTED that he be involved! He said it challenged the highest orders of orthodoxy, and had to be met with force to prevent a slide into pure paganism.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Porsche930S I can sympathise with you and your father's feelings of disappointment that the car has developed a fault. I've been in the same situation nearly 4 years back with a then new BMW 5 series diesel where my turbo decided to implode and the shattered vanes were hoovered through the engine causing major damage. My initial reaction was a loss of confidence in the car and a reluctance to accept a new engine but I accepted that was what was required and realised that I had just been unlucky. My BMW dealer gave me an equivalent loaner and replaced the engine. When I got it back the car was good as new and felt no different to drive. I just had to go through the run in procedure from scratch again. As frayed says it is almost a simple plug and play operation for an engine swap nowadays and there is less to worry about doing this than there is with a major strip down. When I traded the car back to another BMW dealer 18 months later the engine swap made no diferrence to the resale as it had been a BMW warranty repair carried out to factory approved standard. I think it sounds like your dealer is being proactive so I'd advise you to let them swap the engine and then look forward to getting the car back in good shape. As for the factory doing a better job of installing an engine that isn't a fair comparison as the line techs in Stuttgart are "installers" who bolt in a ready made assembly and hook everthing up as opposed to trained technicians.

    I have to smile about the lawyer comment though. Why is it that a lot of people over there always want to reach for a phone and call a lawyer when something goes wrong? No one intended the car to fail and the dealership sound like they are intent on putting it right so why involve a lawyer?? Things go wrong from time to time but if the other party steps up to the plate to put things right then surely that is good enough? Just my 2 cents.

    Re: Send in the troops!

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:But he called me and INSISTED that he be involved! He said it challenged the highest orders of orthodoxy, and had to be met with force to prevent a slide into pure paganism.



    LOL. Look on the bright side, pagans throw great parties.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    ISUK said:I have to smile about the lawyer comment though. Why is it that a lot of people over there always want to reach for a phone and call a lawyer when something goes wrong? No one intended the car to fail and the dealership sound like they are intent on putting it right so why involve a lawyer?? Things go wrong from time to time but if the other party steps up to the plate to put things right then surely that is good enough? Just my 2 cents.



    Agreed. We are far too litigious on this side of the pond.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Though I agree that it will be difficult to get a replacement car the fact that the car had a MATERIAL failure within 200 miles of use may give him legal support for replacement. This is no different than a buyer buying a new car, driving it off the dealership lot and the engine falls out of the car. Should the buyer be required to take the car?

    Re: Very Bad News

    Do you think that your dad would accept the car, if the Certificate of Authenticity and assembly paperwork were changed to reflect the new engine numbers as original. Maybe a legal compromise could be made.

    jb

    Re: Very Bad News

    I know you won't like what I say but from my past experience with Porsche, this is all I can tell you:

    1. sh.t happens, even with a Porsche. I own now three Porsche, a 997 Turbo, a Boxster S and a Cayenne Turbo S and none of them had ANY problem so far, especially not with the engine. The 997 Turbo has almost 9000 km, the Boxster S over 17000 km and the Cayenne Turbo S almost 600 km (new).
    All of them driven hard (well, the Cayenne Turbo S is still too new for that ).

    2. a 997 Targa is no investment, your father must be kidding, sorry to be that harsh.

    3. a brandnew engine from Porsche is the best thing which can happen, as much as your father may be p.ss.d now. Replacement engines sometimes are in a better shape than the first engine. No problem with that.

    4. a replaced engine could be a problem when selling the car privately since the buyer could wonder why the engine has been changed. I would keep a proper documentation of WHEN the engine has been exchanged (mileage but also date) and WHO did the exchange. Just in case.

    5. some dealers may offer you a new replacement CAR, cutting off maybe a few bucks for the miles you've already done in your current Targa (after 200 mls, I doubt there will be much to "cut off"). The problem with this solution is: usually the dealer has to deal with such problems, it is very unlikely that Porsche will pay the cost. Also there is a good possibility that your dealer doesn't have a 997 Targa in stock, so ordering the car at Porsche or getting another Targa from another dealer may be difficult, it may also take a long time until you get a new car.

    The solution? I would keep the Targa but I would also ask the dealer for some sort of "compensation" like a first free FULL service or maybe a set of winter wheels (if you're living in an area with snow), etc., you get my idea.

    Good luck and sorry for your bad experience! Like I said, sh.t happens with every car, you're just unlucky it happened to you.

    Re: Very Bad News

    Certificate of Authenticity? Do we get those in the EU?

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Though I agree that it will be difficult to get a replacement car the fact that the car had a MATERIAL failure within 200 miles of use may give him legal support for replacement. This is no different than a buyer buying a new car, driving it off the dealership lot and the engine falls out of the car. Should the buyer be required to take the car?



    Thanks, that was the only point I was trying to make. 'SHOULD HE BE FORCED TO TAKE THE BRAND NEW CAR' It was leaking from the first day on. They should be thanked for giving it a couple of miles to resolve itself. Again, if there is nothing wrong with the car the dealer should also have no problem keeping and selling the car. I keep coming back to this point - why should the dealer/porsche come out ahead and the consumer take the loss? What is with this buyer being 'unlucky' crap? Who is more responsible for him being 'UNLUCKY' - Porsche or the buyer. I would argue that he had very little input and Porsche had all the input in determining his 'luck'.
    If you keep insisting there is no loss for the consumer in terms of the value of the car then why not let the consumer decide if he wants the 'fixed' car or wants a new one. Obviously the dealer knows better and does not want it back. He can not sell it for the same price - that should open your minds a bit. Hello in there!!!

    Everyone keeps thinking that it's such an outragous demand to insist on a new car while at the same time claiming the fixed car is just as good. IF they are equal then asking for a new car should not bother the dealer at all. The dealer has the same exact reason for refusing the car as the buyer so why do most of you favor the dealer???? I just don't get it.

    I only suggested the lawyer since this is the most efficient way of dealing with this when 100K is in play and because you would be fooling yourself thinking that the other side is not also using them.

    I was starting to think everyone on this board was a Porsche lawyer.

    And yes, if you take care of your car, any car, it can be collected. If that was his intention then he has every right to be upset. In fact if he can prove that this is what he has done in the past he has even more cause. The guy who bought the HEMI Cuda new had no idea that his car would be worth 7 figures when he bought it - back in the 60's you would have encouraged him to just get the replacement motor I guess and not leave the dealership with a numbers matching car. This is his only chance to preserve his numbers matching original car!

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    The targa is now used. It cannot fetch the price of a new car since it has been titled. Independent of mileage, it *is* used. The marketplace dictates different values for a new car v. used; go to your local wholesaler and find the true value of a 200 mile titled car.

    Nobody ever said that a fixed car = a new car. Rather, fixed car = the same *used* car but w/o the engine flaw. HELLO IN THERE.

    There is not a 100k at play here. What's at play here is the devaluation of the car, if any. I contend that there is not. But even assuming that there is, let's say the car is worth 5k less and can show this with an affidavit from another dealer or wholesaler. That's not worth the price of a lawyer today. I charge over $300/hr. Fees add up fast.

    You are transfixed on the dealer and Porsche. That is not the issue. Rather, the issue is that the buyer has a defective car and Porsche has to make him whole. A new engine will be considered to have made him whole, legally. Maybe not emotionally, but legally and materially. You have a problem with that, take it up with your state lawmakers.

    What you are arguing, is akin specific performance, where the law requires full compliance with a contract where money damages or normal restitition is not available. This remedy is reserved for unique goods, like real property. That remedy does NOT apply here.

    RC's post on the subject above is realistic and balanced. Read it.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    It's a real confidence blow when a reliable manufacture such as PO needs to fit a new engine in such a new car, I sort of know as I've been there.
    My intermediate shaft failed at 15k miles in my 2005 C2S.

    But to be fair the new replacement engine IMO is much better.

    Engine swap took less than a week (including the delivery of the engine) and the car drives better for it.

    Very few people on this large membership site have had the same problems as me, so I presume I must have had a rare, isolated case.

    We drive performance cars and the occasional engine failure will happen......

    The most essential thing in my situation was PO's attitude, they didn't even consider stripping down and repairing, a complete new engine was fitted by the service dealer, which I thought was impressive at the time and no different to a factory install.

    If your Dad still wants a 07 Targa 4S then get the engine changed, it will be more up to date and very unlikely to have the same issues.

    Most importantly don't worry about it and the enjoyment of ownership will return much quicker

    Re: Not that big a deal

    frayed's legal analysis is flawless. I've read and re-read all his posts on this. I too am an attorney. Perhaps the non-lawyers here can't truly appreciate how technically correct his advice is. As a lawyer, I can tell you that every sentence he has written is textbook stuff.

    I know the message he is giving hurts but it's legally correct and would be the outcome if this matter ever reached court.

    IMO, you have a dealership whose technical assistance you have confidence in. Get them to do every bit of the repair prefectly to your satisfaction plus fight for as much compensation as you can squeeze out of them e.g. free service, courtesy car, driver training etc etc.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Despite what many are tell you a replacement engine (probably a rebuilt one) will not make you whole. The car has been devalued and anyone stating otherwise is blowing smoke.

    Depending on your state laws there may be a remedy including a replacement car. For years I sat as an arbitrator for consumer complaints regarding alleged defective cars. Both the consumer and the manufacturer would present their cases and I would provide a remedy INCLUDING REPLACING THE CAR OR CANCELLING THE SALES CONTRACT. As I indicated earlier, because this major/material failure occurred within 200 miles of delivery there MAY be justification to replace or cancel the contract.

    If you do not get what you want, you might try the arbitration route. I am sure Porsche is a signatory to this dispute resolution device.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    nick, sorry, you're arguing for an equitable remedy here of specific performance. That would only be available if monetary damages were not an adequate remedy. Here, repair (the alternative to monetary damages) is sufficient to put the customer in the position he ought to be in i.e. the rest of the car is fine (having only been used 200 miles) and the engine will be new. As a non-unique item of personalty, that's the same product he would have got had his car been flawless from the start. Resale value is a speculative issue. Emotional distress etc can be remedied by compensation too. I fail to see how he can base a claim on the balance of probabilities (i.e >50%) that the only performance acceptable from the dealer is not just to supply a car but instead a 'perfect' car.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Are not the replacement engines Porsche uses for warranty replacement work actually "rebuilt" or "remanufactured" - meaning they were used in another car and then overhauled to Porsche specs?

    Would it not be reasonable considering its mileage to at least expect a virgin new engine be put into that car?

    No matter what a 997s normal depreciation is, a replacement motor will impact its value later to some extent.

    It might be difficult for Porsche to NOT find a judge or arbitrator in his state that does not think a 100K Porsche Targa is not unique ... and that driving a new one one off the lot new with a defective engine is grounds for cancelling the sales contract or replacing the vehicle.

    Oil Leak

    This thread seems to have gotten a little rough...

    First of all, I see everyone's point. I am no lawyer and I am still a Business student so I cannot keep up with the legal talk just yet. I don't know all of the laws (and neither does my dad) but he and I both feel that getting a new engine in a 200 Mile car will feel weird. Getting into the car and driving it (as of our feelings now) makes it feel second hand in one sense. Now if we had gotten 2K miles of fun out of the car, it might be a different story!

    Now before everyone goes and jumps down my throat...I agree getting a whole new car would be very tough. My first thought when the service manager told this was that Porsche is going to say new engine, take it or leave it. In that case, my fathers stance in firm in that he is returning the car.

    On the investment thing that everyone is caught up on. I am not saying this car is an investment and my dad is hoping it will appreciate and he can make gang busters. (Trust me; we had a 1992 Mercedes Benz 600 SEL V12 with 4,000 miles appraised at $8,000 in excellent condition, which it was! So he knows how depreciation is a b*itch.). Also, I am the youngest of four children, all of which went to college and two to medical school, and now my older siblings are living on their own and not under the support of my parents, so my dad said it is finally time to do something for myself...he buys a T4S...leaking oil from day one. A good sign on what is to come from this car? This whole engine thing is just bad karma for this car, as odd as that sounds.

    Also, I did not intend this thread to be one where everyone is battling each other about what is right and was is wrong.

    All the information on here though does present good points. They are all points to consider on this (IMO) horrible battle to come. Seriously, how would you feel if a car you have been waiting for and just paid large numbers for had a major (one of the worst) engine malfunctions you can have? Would you be confident in the car? Also, if we do replace the engine, I don't want to know it's a rebuilt refurbed motor! You buy refurbed computers not Porsche engines!

    RC, when I first heard the news about the Targa my first thought was what you would think about the situation. I knew what you would say, because I know how Porsche is going to react, my father doesn't really, so what you said is not harsh, its just the truth, though there is still hope in the back of my head that this can be pulled off.

    I know some of my posts may be a bit confusing but I am trying to get my point of view and also my fathers through in them.

    Update: The car is going in today. I do not have time to make it to the dealership so I will let you know what my father says. The local Rep will be in tomorrow (Friday) to examine the car and the situation.

    Last note: The thing that gets me is that we are already being punished for purchasing the car in a way. We are supposed to enjoy this car...and we're not off to a great start...

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    nick, sorry, you're arguing for an equitable remedy here of specific performance. That would only be available if monetary damages were not an adequate remedy. Here, repair (the alternative to monetary damages) is sufficient to put the customer in the position he ought to be in i.e. the rest of the car is fine (having only been used 200 miles) and the engine will be new. As a non-unique item of personalty, that's the same product he would have got had his car been flawless from the start. Resale value is a speculative issue. Emotional distress etc can be remedied by compensation too. I fail to see how he can base a claim on the balance of probabilities (i.e >50%) that the only performance acceptable from the dealer is not just to supply a car but instead a 'perfect' car.



    Based on your response I assume you are a lawyer. If so, let me give you a piece of advice. Never view a client case with a jewelers eye. He or she will never win. Your job is to find/create ways to give your client a chance. If this was a law school exam question, I probably would not give you a passing grade.

    This is not a specific performance issue (I could spend time explaining why it is not but why bore the readers ) though many assume so. It contractual in nature and the soley issue is whether the buyer has a remedy including replacing the car. Some state laws may allow it. Other's may not. Some may refer the matter to Arbitration. The point is there may be opportunties for him to get what he wants. To reject out of hand his chances is at best poor lawyering.

    Re: Not that big a deal

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    IMO, you have a dealership whose technical assistance you have confidence in. Get them to do every bit of the repair prefectly to your satisfaction plus fight for as much compensation as you can squeeze out of them e.g. free service, courtesy car, driver training etc etc.



    This seems like the best solution to me, it avoids legal procedings, it avoids damaging your relationship with the dealer -having worked for a dealer I know that this is very important and can give you considerable leverage in the future which is important if you want to try and get any 'reasonable' out of warranty repairs done for free etc...also if your father was buying this car as an investment in pleasure, i can see no better future than one where porsche provide you with driver training free of charge etc! Sorry im no legal professional(no disrespect to those of you obviously are [and very successfully it seems!]) but it is important to maintain a good relationship no matter what side of a (bum) deal you may be on.

    Re: 997 not an investment!

    The decent thing for PCNA to do is to give him another car or a refund.

    Its just too ridiculous to have a customer sign a contract for a 100k+ new car then for him to turn the key the first time and bingo have a defective engine.

     
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