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    Jan 3, 2007 1:40:37 AM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
    Posts: 12586, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: devo

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    devo said:
    I know the limiter does not protect against bad downshifts, but I thought it stopped missed upward shifts?


    Nope, that's a mechanical function too, no chance for electronic intervention...

    Unless, by missed upshifts, you mean that you miss selecting a gear at all. If you stick it in neutral and hit the gas, the limiter should prevent a severe overrev (but harder to do that without any load on the motor) - but that would still be a type 1.

    If you are running up through the gears, shift out of 3rd at 7,000 revs and try to select 4th gear but instead hit 2nd - then that is a massive type 2...

    Jan 3, 2007 1:45:46 AM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
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    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    bodysurfer said:
    sorry. i should have said type 2 overrev. not type one.


    So, you had 6 of those? That is definitely a problem - sorry to hear that Were you having difficulty with the gearbox?

    Jan 3, 2007 2:00:37 AM

    bodysurfer
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    bodysurfer
    Loc: socal
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: engine failure

    no problems with gearbox just me screw'n up. i drive a lot.

    Jan 3, 2007 3:22:43 PM

    Revvv
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    Revvv
    Loc: Ft. Lauderdale, FL , United States
    Posts: 377, Gallery
    Registered on: Sep 25, 2002
    Reply to: Circe

    Re: engine failure

    When I jump on Interstate 95, every day, and I am in Sport mode on Chrono; I love to hear that " Hard -Cut" on limiter.
    I hit it, probably twice a month. That's no problem.Forcing the poor motor into the 8,9,10 thousand RPM range; due to a missed shift; is a different story. I don't think Porsche
    should pay for those motors.....
    Revvv

    Jan 3, 2007 4:31:43 PM

    Stephenkng
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    Stephenkng
    Loc: S.F., CA , United States
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    Reply to: Revvv

    Re: engine failure

    Missing down shift in autoX or tracking will cause your motor and there is the fact. I have done that twice. If porsche will pay for half out of good customer service, you should be very happy.

    Jan 3, 2007 6:42:32 PM

    Leawood911
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    Leawood911
    Loc: Kansas, USA , United States
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    Reply to: Stephenkng

    Re: engine failure

    If you are interested in how many over-revs you have on your motor, the type etc. you can buy an ODBII testing tool for your 997, such as the one Durametric sells for less than less than $200. It will also tell you the engine hour that the overrev took place. By the way, they are counting the number of ignitions of each spark plug in the over rev range. Bouncing off the rev limiter just briefly will always result in a couple dozen or more (perhaps 100's) of ignitions.

    The Durametric tool also shows many types of engine error codes and can clear all the error codes (not the overrev counter). It also performs functions like clearing out the service indicator etc.

    Having used it for a while I find it a useful but then again, as a software developer, I am into all the tech details and can not afford the 10K Porsche diag software.

    It may be a good way to double check your dealers claims especially since it provides the engine hour detail letting you know when the over-rev took place. I do not think the dealer can get that detail. If the type 2 was a long time ago I can be reasoned that it was not the final or only cause of the engine failure. On the other hand it may be nasty evidence against you if it was recent.

    Best of luck. Keep this thread alive as it will be noticed and it may help your situation. (Stay positive in your posts and praise them for all the effort they are making... all that BS!)

    Drive right!

    Jan 3, 2007 7:16:28 PM

    Stephenkng
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    Stephenkng
    Loc: S.F., CA , United States
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: engine failure

    You are correct. If the over rev was in the early engine hours, I don't see the direct relationship to this engine failure. On the other hand, if it happen just before the failure, you are neiled.

    Jan 4, 2007 12:04:22 AM

    Dasein
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    Dasein
    Loc: Mountains of western NC, USA , United States
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    Reply to: Stephenkng

    Re: engine failure

    Am I wrong in thinking that a Type 2 over-rev is fairly impossible with a Tiptronic?

    Jan 4, 2007 4:30:18 AM

    bodysurfer
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    bodysurfer
    Loc: socal
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: engine failure

    thanks for the info. on this tool, also i want to thank all those who took the time to comment on this event. i got in touch with levi (1-800 porsche) he is a supervisor or something like that. he took down some specific info. about my engine failure and said he would forward it to the appropriate people., nice guy, listened well, said all the right things. he told me he would get back to me within 72 hours. i don't know what caused my engine to fail, not sure they do either. i will try to get the #'s on my overrevs and when they occured. don't think i have had a type 2 overrev for 3 to 4 months. may be related to my current engine problem, may not . i will let you know.

    Jan 4, 2007 5:05:36 AM

    Stephenkng
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    Stephenkng
    Loc: S.F., CA , United States
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    Registered on: Oct 5, 2005
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    I think it is very hard to justify a type 2 over rev that happened 3 - 4 months ago that cause the engine failed. If the over rev happened immediately before the engine failed, I can understand that. Do demand an explaination on how that can cause the engine failed. Good Luck and keep us posted.

    Jan 4, 2007 5:50:38 PM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
    Posts: 12586, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: Stephenkng

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    Stephenkng said:
    I think it is very hard to justify a type 2 over rev that happened 3 - 4 months ago that cause the engine failed. If the over rev happened immediately before the engine failed, I can understand that. Do demand an explaination on how that can cause the engine failed. Good Luck and keep us posted.


    Actually, I can understand Porsch's position on this. A massive overrev can weaken bearings, rods, etc. so that they don't break immediately but can break later. However, I would expect some immediate damage in the valvetrain if the revs are high enough (might let valves and pistons meet also)

    Jan 4, 2007 5:51:58 PM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
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    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: Dasein

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    Dasein said:
    Am I wrong in thinking that a Type 2 over-rev is fairly impossible with a Tiptronic?


    Correct - all autos (traditional, SMG, or DSG) prevent this, since a computer would intervene - intervenes with the fun too

    Jan 4, 2007 6:12:10 PM

    SonOfStig
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: engine failure

    I think if your last type 2 was several months ago, you at least have some room for negotiation. Also might be worth considering a PDE (Porsche Driver's Experience) course - they do 1/2 and 1 days for not toooo many $$ and they might be able to help you go safer, maybe faster and certainly cheaper!

    Good luck dude and take it easy, OK?

    SoS.

    Jan 5, 2007 1:29:38 AM

    amjf088
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    amjf088
    Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada
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    Registered on: Jan 6, 2005
    Reply to: SonOfStig

    Re: engine failure

    I agree with Grant, that a type 2 over-rev can create damage that only fully manifests itself later. However, as said above, it does give you some negotiating room that the last one was some time ago. Perhaps you can meet "halfway".

    One thing I will add bodysurfer is that I admire your candid and open approach. By accepting the truth and discussing in a reasonable and respectful manner, I think there is a good chance for a decent outcome. Not everyone is as willing to own up to the facts as you are!

    Jan 5, 2007 11:40:50 AM

    SpeedGeek
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    Loc: Jo'burg, S. Africa
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: engine failure

    I have a 996 GT3 RS and I missed a downshift a couple months back resulting in a type-2 overrev (Grant knows my story from another forum). The car runs fine but I took it to the dealer anyway for analysis. They hooked up their PIWIZ computer but the only info it showed was "119 ignitions in rev-range 2", plus the operating time the event occurred. There was no other info available such as max revs reached (unless range-2 specifies that intrinsically, as posted by sws1 above). From this thread I gather the latest software actually logs each overrev event distinctly and with more detail. I would love to know just how high my engine revved that day. Fortunately my car continues to run flawlessly.


    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    devo said:
    I know the limiter does not protect against bad downshifts, but I thought it stopped missed upward shifts?


    Nope, that's a mechanical function too, no chance for electronic intervention...



    Seems to me a simple solution would be to include some solenoid type device in the clutch mechanism that instantly actuates if a too-low gear is selected, preventing the clutch from engaging when the pedal is released. Am I oversimplifying the problem?

    Bodysurfer, how did you manage six missed shifts? Selector problems or concentration problems? What will a new engine cost you?

    Jan 5, 2007 3:01:12 PM

    Circe
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    Circe
    Loc: NH, USA
    Posts: 157, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 26, 2005
    Reply to: amjf088

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    I agree with Grant, that a type 2 over-rev can create damage that only fully manifests itself later. However, as said above, it does give you some negotiating room that the last one was some time ago. Perhaps you can meet "halfway".

    One thing I will add bodysurfer is that I admire your candid and open approach. By accepting the truth and discussing in a reasonable and respectful manner, I think there is a good chance for a decent outcome. Not everyone is as willing to own up to the facts as you are!



    Ditto. Causation is your defense but perseverance and fairness are the crucial.

    Jan 5, 2007 3:10:12 PM

    STRADALE
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    STRADALE
    Loc: NY , United States
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    Reply to: SpeedGeek

    Re: engine failure

    Years ago while in my second stick shift car (BMW 328 is) I missed a shift, I think instead of hitting 4th I hit 2nd. Moments later you could hear a tapping noise from the engine. At first the dealer & BMW (the had a rep come inspect the engine) refused a claim. After speaking w/ them for a while they agreed to pay half. That was a huge lesson though and why I don't shift aggressively on any new stick shift car until I'm REALLY confident about my shifts. I didn't start feeling confident enough to shift at the higher rpms in my 997 till about 6000 miles. After a long time it becomes second nature but when you're at the track etc. there are different forces at work.

    I guess this is one of the things of real importance for anyone buying a pre-owned Porsche to check out. To see if there have been any over rev.s especially type 2.

    Sorry to hear about your situation. An Engine replacement aint gonna be cheap. I'd keep at the negotation's though and try to see if the higher ups at Porsche will help you $ wise. W/ the lowest cost possible. Good luck.

    Jan 5, 2007 4:39:19 PM

    roadtrip
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    roadtrip
    Loc: new mexico, usa
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    Registered on: May 31, 2006
    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: engine failure

    ive learned with low rpm practice 5th and not 3rd is best engaged but pushing the gear shift w a y to the right and forward...6th same deal and down...and of course at high rpm events are unfolding quickly

    Jan 6, 2007 10:17:50 PM

    bodysurfer
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    bodysurfer
    Loc: socal
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    Registered on: Oct 19, 2005
    Reply to: SpeedGeek

    Re: engine failure

    i attended the pde 3 day session about a year ago. it was awesome. i am aware of two possible overrev shifts that i may have done, not 6, porsche reported 6 overrev occurences.. also i just had my 40k svc. done about 2 months ago and my dealer said nothing to me about engine issues. not trying to argue any particular point. just a bit of my svc. history that may be relevant? i expect to hear back from porsche cust. svc. on mon. or tue. their last comment to me was the investigation was a "work in progress".

    Jan 9, 2007 9:58:25 PM

    jboyko
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    jboyko
    Loc: NEWARK, NJ
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    Registered on: Dec 5, 2004
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    Apparently you have taken your car in for service a few times over the past year, maybe some of those 6 overrev occurences correspond to the days that the car was in the shop. I have also heard that there were some known cases of intermediate shaft failure due to improper fabrication.

    good luck

    jb

    Jan 10, 2007 5:32:31 AM

    bodysurfer
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    bodysurfer
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    Registered on: Oct 19, 2005
    Reply to: jboyko

    Re: engine failure

    got a call tonight from my svc. rep. he said porsche would give me 25% off a new engine (around 9k + tax.) i said ok. i'm also having a new clutch put in. also svc. rep. said that the new engine would have a 2 yr. warranty. i thought it would be 4 yrs. here in the us? i will get a ruling on that issue tomorrow.. anyways, i can't wait to get my car back and be a better driver as well...

    Jan 10, 2007 10:59:52 AM

    easy_rider911
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    easy_rider911
    Loc: London , United Kingdom
    Posts: 22190, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 8, 2004
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    I'm glad you got a good outcome that is acceptable to you.

    Perhaps you could fit a short shifter (XCZ) to help ensure the stick goes into the right gear more easily. Just a suggestion.

    Jan 10, 2007 5:04:04 PM

    Sebastian
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    Sebastian
    Loc: Caracas, Venezuela
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: engine failure

    40k for a new engine? Is it really new?

    Jan 10, 2007 6:20:33 PM

    Grant
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    Grant
    Loc: Denver, CO , United States
    Posts: 12586, Gallery
    Registered on: Aug 21, 2002
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    bodysurfer said:
    got a call tonight from my svc. rep. he said porsche would give me 25% off a new engine (around 9k + tax.) i said ok.


    Good luck with everything. Just be glad that wasn't a GT3 or Turbo motor (about 4x as expensive)...

    Jan 10, 2007 7:16:24 PM

    jboyko
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    jboyko
    Loc: NEWARK, NJ
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: engine failure

    Dude, you must have money to burn, by accepting the word from a rep using proprietary data that cannot be verified. You should search rennteam for noted manufactuers defects that may be the true problem, in your defense. At least get a copy of the data and post it. Maybe someone on rennteam could poise you with enough info for a better financial result.

    jb

    Jan 11, 2007 1:14:14 AM

    Circe
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    Circe
    Loc: NH, USA
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    Registered on: Nov 26, 2005
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    Quote:
    bodysurfer said:
    got a call tonight from my svc. rep. he said porsche would give me 25% off a new engine (around 9k + tax.) i said ok. i'm also having a new clutch put in. also svc. rep. said that the new engine would have a 2 yr. warranty. i thought it would be 4 yrs. here in the us? i will get a ruling on that issue tomorrow.. anyways, i can't wait to get my car back and be a better driver as well...



    That's the spirit! Glad to see you are coming out of this with a bump from Porsche. Naturally we were hoping it would be substantially more but if it is true that the accidental shifts were the sole cause of the problem, then perhaps Porsche's offer may be more than fair; a good thing here. Also, there's something to be said for resolving the problem early and amicably.

    Now, get that rascal installed and start enjoying your dream car once again!

    Jan 11, 2007 3:33:12 AM

    bodysurfer
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    bodysurfer
    Loc: socal
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    Reply to: jboyko

    Re: engine failure

    complicated sort of issue for me in that my 997s is used for business purposes. i own a small business, uncle sam takes about 50 cents of every dollar i make so i have 9k less taxable dollars which equals about 4500 dollars out of my pocket. i could argue my side of this issue but an attorney would probably cost me another 2k at least and who knows how much time? anyways thats part of my decision process.

    Jan 11, 2007 5:20:13 AM

    Leawood911
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    Leawood911
    Loc: Kansas, USA , United States
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    Registered on: Aug 29, 2006
    Reply to: bodysurfer

    Re: engine failure

    You should be doing much better than this 25% deal. At least get a second opinion from an atty. $9K is still $9K that you could use elsewhere, not $4.5K - you know better than that
    This is how I feel - too bad everyone

    Jan 11, 2007 6:21:45 AM

    deddie
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    deddie
    Loc: El Dorado Hills, CA USA
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    Reply to: Leawood911

    Re: engine failure

    I'm not getting how $9k, less $4.5k is not $4.5k. This is a one-off deal for him, not a decision of how to allocate funds. The incremental $9k nets to only $4.5k after taxes. His net out-of-pocket is $4.5k. Also, attorney's are not free. He's spending money one way or another. I like that he's not finger-pointing and avoiding blame.

    Jan 11, 2007 6:22:33 AM

    FLORENT KAVADAS
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    FLORENT KAVADAS
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: engine failure

    I agree with easy. I know that sometimes you just want your car back and want to finish. I feel sometimes like burning my money too but if you think of how long you would stay without a car....

    Just go on. I think that a short shift is a very good thing...

    Enjoy....the ride again.
     
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