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    Apr 26, 2004 11:20:27 AM

    pierre
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    pierre
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    GT3 RS: one less!

    Saturday afternoon, a brand new GT3 RS crashed at the Nordschleife.

    The accident happened at Breidscheid. The guy (from Sweden) apparently put the right-hand wheels on the grass when braking to take the bridge, and he lost control. The car hit some curbs, properly took off, landed on the nose and finished upside-down. Car is destroyed, but the driver got only slight injuries thanks to the roll-cage.

    Take care!
    --Pierre

    Apr 27, 2004 8:57:02 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: pierre

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    one more... sooner or later the norschleife will bite you!

    i'm glad hearing that the driver got away only with slight injuries! seems that the roll cage did it's job!

    from sweden? hopefully not ulf who posted pics of his GT3 RS some time ago on this forum.

    Apr 27, 2004 9:17:39 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    from sweden? hopefully not ulf who posted pics of his GT3 RS some time ago on this forum.



    I'm afraid...

    I don't want to sound like a smarta.. but is it really necessary to drive at the limit? I understand that it is fun to try to hit the personal limit and maybe even raise it but we're talking about our health and...a lot of money.
    Schumacher does it as a full time job but people like us who earn their money with different jobs should think about the most important thing: having fun, without getting injured or losing a lot of money. Just a thought, again, I didn't want to sound like a smarta.. .

    Apr 27, 2004 11:11:15 AM

    pierre
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    pierre
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    RC said:

    I don't want to sound like a smarta.. but is it really necessary to drive at the limit? [...]



    Necessary? Of course not. But some people need to feel their own limit in order to push it a bit further. It's part of the game, and people doing that are (usually) fully aware of the involved risks, and they accept them.

    In this case, I'm very happy the driver came out of it with no serious injuries.

    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Apr 27, 2004 12:04:05 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: RCA

    Life!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I don't want to sound like a smarta.. but is it really necessary to drive at the limit? I understand that it is fun to try to hit the personal limit and maybe even raise it but we're talking about our health and...a lot of money.



    Christian,

    Who wastes his life? The person who carefully avoids every risk, devotes his life to hard work, dies rich? Or the person who accepts reasonable risks (i.e. not reckless), works less hard, dies poor??

    Remember Christian that the only certainty is that your life is going to end one day. Yes, there is a risk to living life to its fullest. But so far as I am concerned, I'm more afraid of missing out on life.

    Perhapse your perspective is that of a Cayenne driving father of two?

    Stephen

    Apr 27, 2004 12:06:01 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I don't want to sound like a smarta.. but is it really necessary to drive at the limit?



    Well... yes, othewise there in no appeal in it trying to find your limits and improving upon yourself, and also a good dose of playing with the knife edge and the adrenalin rush of seeing with what you can get away with is what most people seek, though its easy to get caught up too much in that cycle of "a little more.. and a little more..." and thats when bad things happen.
    I'm personally, still getting over the track-withdrawl symptoms you get for weeks afterwards

    Its a fair game, as long as you know and accept what you are exposing yourself to, do not endanger other drivers, and diminish the risks the best you can by taking all the precautions and leave your ego at home.

    Apr 27, 2004 12:15:56 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Defective genes

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Well... yes, othewise there in no appeal in it trying to find your limits and improving upon yourself, and also a good dose of playing with the knife edge and the adrenalin rush of seeing with what you can get away with is what most people seek, though its easy to get caught up too much in that cycle of "a little more.. and a little more..." and thats when bad things happen.



    "Most people"? I think not Carlos. Most people sleep happily in their bed, commute carefully to the office, work hard, play with their children or grand children and go to sleep early to be ready for a hard day at the office.

    I'm afraid that you (and I) have some sort of genetic defect.

    Stephen

    Apr 27, 2004 12:42:52 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Defective genes

    Defective genes? I don't know. Maybe we have one gene in plus compared to other people.

    Regarding driving at the limit: when I was 18, I drove at the limit without even knowing it, putting my life in danger several times. At age 22, I was racing in the Group N and I started to learn my limits, my possibilities and FEAR. It is something else if you race for fun only or if you race in a championship, maybe even with the thought to earn money and even get famous. Around age 30, I bought myself my first Porsche and I paid a lot of money for it. I started to think about my future, earning money, family, etc. Now at age 39, I have a wife and two kids. I'm pretty happy, I have a good job and I make money, not as much as I wish (or need for my expensive car hobby) but I shouldn't complaint. A lot of "old" friends still go to the track, race their cars and sometimes even wreck them, it can happen. But I cannot afford to be a few weeks in the hospital, I cannot afford paying 30000 Euro or more for a wrecked car and I don't want to spend money on several tire sets per year. Not to speak about damaged rims, extra brake fluid service, new brake pads, new brake discs, etc. all the time. For this kind of money, I can buy something nice for my family, we can travel, I can buy me a nice gadget...so many things, so little time.

    My point is: track racing is great fun but the emphasis should be on the word fun. Some people take it too serious, if somebody achieves one best lap, they HAVE to brake this lap time and so on. I wonder: do they get money for that? Why should I destroy my car and maybe my life for a better lap time? Ambition? Well, I did some dangerous sports in my youth and yes, the adrenaline rush is pretty impressive and helps to gain self trust. But at age 39, happily married with kids, I don't need this anymore. Maybe again in my 50's...midlife crisis...

    Apr 27, 2004 1:13:22 PM

    J.Seven
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    J.Seven
    Loc: Estoril , Portugal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Defective genes

    I can understand both points of view regarding this subject. I have wife and kid too and specailly when you have a child , you start to think twice before you get into trouble if you know what I mean.

    I race my car from time to time and Yes, I take it to the limit, there's nothing like the rush of being in the circuit taking yourself and the car to the limit. By making this, sometimes, I put myself into risk, and after the rush is gone and I'm with my blood plessure stabilesed, I can't help thinking that I went to far, and next time I'll be more careful. But the thrue is that I got the conclusion that is stronger than me, I can't help it, as soon as I put my feet on the circuit I always try to go a bit further. Till now I was lucky, and never had an accident, and memories are the best you can dream of.

    It's like the story of the frog and black spider. They are both at one side of the river with a big fire behind them, but the spider can't swim so doesn't have a chance to survive, and the frog can jump to the other side, but the spider is in the edge of the river so the frog can't pass. So the frog decide to talk with the spider and says "hey look spider, we're both done, you can't swim, and I can't jump with you in front, so let's make a deal, you claim to my chest, and I jump to the other side of the river, this way we can both survive". The fire was getting near so quickly the spider agree and climb to the frog's chest. The frog made a big jump to the other side of the river, in the middle of the jump the spider looked at the frog's chest and.... bites the frogs chest. Well, the frog lost energy and both were falling at the midle of the river and the frog asked to the spider"why did you bite me spider, now we're both going to die?" and the spider says, " it was stronger than me"

    J.Seven

    Apr 27, 2004 1:58:45 PM

    TEE
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    RC said:
    but is it really necessary to drive at the limit? I understand that it is fun to try to hit the personal limit and maybe even raise it but we're talking about our health and...a lot of money.




    Who says the guy was driving at the limit? He might have just done a mistake. I think you can make mistakes even though you're not driving at your personal limit.

    I can see why you no longer drive on track Christian and how your money could be spend different. All true and valid reasons. Then again, the track is a fun place to drive within your limits and yet have great fun. Fun which you might not have on a public road. One would even claim that you can increase your limit by driving on the track. Don't know if you know Bedford Autodrome in the UK. It is a great place to drive your car and learn where your limit is you can also overstep it - with the result being that you spin a few times. I believe the best place to learn the limit is by understanding better where it is. That is one reason I drive on the track. As for the costs, well you are right they can be insane. That is why I still drive an Elise instead of an Porsche on track. Better deal

    You are a former racing driver - you must understand what gets us to the track weekend after weekend...


    TEE

    P.S. I happy to hear that the guy did not hurt himself serious

    Apr 27, 2004 4:48:11 PM

    Avoe
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    Reply to: TEE

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Hi,

    Very interesting chat.
    I think porsche cars, are made for the racetrack. Not the convertible ones, and even not the "normal", but all the GT models. Of course it costs a lot of money to have such a hobby, and of course there's a small risk, but many things in life are a bit dangerous. Ski for example, this is a sport which millions of people practice and like. And how many people get really heart, with fatal konsequences?
    The point is many kinds of sport bare their dangers, but what would life be without all the diferent kinds of fun? Which sence would it make to work hard, earn money, and not to spend a part of it for the thigs which really make fun.
    Some people earn more money and some less. Those people which earn more money can usually afford more expensice hobbys and more often, but it doesn't matter how often and which kind of sport/hobby you practice, the point is, life would be very boring without them.
    And regarding risk. The major point is that you need to know your limits. Doesn't matter how talented and experienced you are, everybody has to know his own limit. When skiing or racing a car on the track.
    I was 2 years ago on a track day of porsche on the A1-Ring (ex F1 track), and was such a fun. It is really addictive.
    But on the other hand, Porsche is not stuped, they know why the organize such an event. It push the dealer garage.
    Anyway racing a real sports car is a real great thing, and I wish i will be able to practice such an hobby in the very next future, maybe with the GT3 997.
    Such an hobby is luxus and luxus is always the meaning of something you don't really need, but it makes a lot of fun if you are able to afford it. (without saving on the family!)

    Apr 27, 2004 5:12:46 PM

    Porsche Fan
    Junior
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    Reply to: Avoe

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    It is sad to hear but atleast the driver is OK and the car died a noble death as it was being driven hard like it was designed to do...The type death all Porsche cars should.. not in downtown City Traffic accident... but a death on the track.
    Eric

    Apr 27, 2004 5:59:25 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Carlos from Spain
    Loc: Spain. , Spain
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Defective genes

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Defective genes? I don't know. Maybe we have one gene in plus compared to other people.

    Regarding driving at the limit: when I was 18, I drove at the limit without even knowing it, putting my life in danger several times. At age 22, I was racing in the Group N and I started to learn my limits, my possibilities and FEAR. It is something else if you race for fun only or if you race in a championship, maybe even with the thought to earn money and even get famous. Around age 30, I bought myself my first Porsche and I paid a lot of money for it. I started to think about my future, earning money, family, etc. Now at age 39, I have a wife and two kids. I'm pretty happy, I have a good job and I make money, not as much as I wish (or need for my expensive car hobby) but I shouldn't complaint. A lot of "old" friends still go to the track, race their cars and sometimes even wreck them, it can happen. But I cannot afford to be a few weeks in the hospital, I cannot afford paying 30000 Euro or more for a wrecked car and I don't want to spend money on several tire sets per year. Not to speak about damaged rims, extra brake fluid service, new brake pads, new brake discs, etc. all the time. For this kind of money, I can buy something nice for my family, we can travel, I can buy me a nice gadget...so many things, so little time.

    My point is: track racing is great fun but the emphasis should be on the word fun. Some people take it too serious, if somebody achieves one best lap, they HAVE to brake this lap time and so on. I wonder: do they get money for that? Why should I destroy my car and maybe my life for a better lap time? Ambition? Well, I did some dangerous sports in my youth and yes, the adrenaline rush is pretty impressive and helps to gain self trust. But at age 39, happily married with kids, I don't need this anymore. Maybe again in my 50's...midlife crisis...



    Well, I can certainly understand that point of view too, with age come greater responsabilities like children and priorities get shuffled a bit, like taking less risks, less time from the family and saving money for other things, and driving your car at the track can affect all. I'm 31 and children will come soon and in my case I fear sportbikes may be the first thing to go by then since they are a bit too dangerous on the street if you have a bit too much fuel in your veins so there is no mid-point between riding spiritedly or no riding at all and other things will eventually follow So I see your point but I will always drive a sportcar (preferably Porsche) even if its just in the street, that is non-negociable

    Apr 27, 2004 6:09:48 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Defective genes

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    I'm afraid that you (and I) have some sort of genetic defect.
    Stephen



    yes Stephen, one that seems to be unusually high between the members of this forum and is also very profitable for the local goverment's treasury since every now and then we get to pay special taxes collected by our friendly traffic officers, maybe if we showed a medical certificate of our genetic abnormalty showing its not our fault we could get away

    Apr 27, 2004 6:49:24 PM

    pierre
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    pierre
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Defective genes

    "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space..."

    --Pierre

    Apr 27, 2004 7:11:16 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: pierre

    Re: Defective genes

    Quote:
    pierre said:
    "If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space..."

    --Pierre



    Sounds something those guys that like to jump off planes before they land for the kick of it would say, you know... them crazy skydivers

    Apr 27, 2004 7:20:33 PM

    pierre
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    pierre
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Defective genes

    Carlos, you're spot on!...
    --Pierre

    Apr 27, 2004 7:27:11 PM

    FixedWing
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Paying the price

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    ... and is also very profitable for the local goverment's treasury since every now and then we get to pay special taxes collected by our friendly traffic officers...



    Speak for yourself Carlos! I haven't had to pay a moving violation in almost 20 years. That's because I am a carefull, slow and considerate driver.

    Stephen

    Apr 27, 2004 7:30:47 PM

    pierre
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    pierre
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Paying the price

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    That's because I am a carefull, slow and considerate driver.




    And your avatar is the proof of it...
    --Pierre

    Apr 27, 2004 7:33:58 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Defective genes

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    ....... maybe if we showed a medical certificate of our genetic abnormalty showing its not our fault we could get away



    Sorry, Carlos, I'm more inclined to think they would double the fine, because "you were having fun"!


    fritz

    Apr 27, 2004 9:16:20 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: TEE

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    TEE1 said:
    He might have just done a mistake. I think you can make mistakes even though you're not driving at your personal limit.
    .......
    Don't know if you know Bedford Autodrome in the UK. It is a great place to drive your car and learn where your limit is you can also overstep it - with the result being that you spin a few times.



    TEE1,

    If you make mistakes of this nature when not driving at your limit, then you are not concentrating. Where's the virtue in that?

    I don't think you can compare the Bedford Autodrome with the Nordschleife. You don't usually "spin a few times " on the Nordschleife. The latter circuit came into being long before anyone dreamt of run-out zones or gravel traps. Just ask Niki Lauda............

    fritz

    Apr 27, 2004 9:21:29 PM

    fritz
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    fritz
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Defective genes

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    I'm afraid that you (and I) have some sort of genetic defect.




    Oh, is that what you guys have?

    Probably been eating too many of those genetically modified soya beans!

    fritz

    Apr 27, 2004 9:39:23 PM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Reply to: FixedWing

    Re: Paying the price

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    Speak for yourself Carlos! I haven't had to pay a moving violation in almost 20 years. That's because I am a carefull, slow and considerate driver.

    Stephen



    What about diplomatic license plates, Stephen?

    Apr 28, 2004 8:19:41 AM

    Rufie
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    Rufie
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Paying the price

    Hey Pierre,

    last weekend Mouse his brother told me that in Switserland the fine you get is based on your income. The maximum can be 30% of your year-income. Can you confirm ? In case this is true, a fine can really hurt.

    A friend of me returned last week from Switserland. They were with several Porsches. One passed another car via the right. He's got a fine of 2500 euro. I guess he was speeding also. They don't laugh in your country.

    CYA,
    Rufie.

    Apr 28, 2004 8:53:55 AM

    RCA
    Rennteam Administrator
    RC
    Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany
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    Registered on: Mar 26, 2002
    Reply to: Rufie

    Re: Paying the price

    Quote:
    Rufie said:
    Hey Pierre,

    last weekend Mouse his brother told me that in Switserland the fine you get is based on your income. The maximum can be 30% of your year-income. Can you confirm ? In case this is true, a fine can really hurt.

    A friend of me returned last week from Switserland. They were with several Porsches. One passed another car via the right. He's got a fine of 2500 euro. I guess he was speeding also. They don't laugh in your country.

    CYA,
    Rufie.



    You also go to prison for a few days, depending on how fast you were. I think it is only 25% from the monthly income depending on the speed plus the regular fine but I'm not sure. I can confirm it, Swiss police doesn't know how to laugh: they stopped me a few years ago a few km before the San Bernardino tunnel when I was driving with my wife in my brandnew 996 Turbo to South France. Lucky me, one police man was italian and started to flirt with my wife (she's blonde ) and the other one was a car nutt and wanted to see the engine compartment. I ended up with a serious warning, no smile...and no fine. But I also have to say that was only about 20-30 kph over the legal limit and it was outside on a deserted country road. I just overlooked the BMW following me and happy me, I didn't drive really fast because I was listening to some music with my wife. Switzerland is definetely a dangerous place for speeding.
    On the same trip to South France, an italian police car stopped me near Genova. I was going 175 kph instead of 140 kph. They were so nice, they talked and talked, of course they wanted to see the car and...they even told me that around 10 km ahead on the same route, there might be a radar control. Italians are a bit more relaxed I guess.

    Apr 28, 2004 9:03:08 AM

    TEE
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    TEE
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    TEE1 said:
    He might have just done a mistake. I think you can make mistakes even though you're not driving at your personal limit.
    .......
    Don't know if you know Bedford Autodrome in the UK. It is a great place to drive your car and learn where your limit is you can also overstep it - with the result being that you spin a few times.




    TEE1,

    If you make mistakes of this nature when not driving at your limit, then you are not concentrating. Where's the virtue in that?

    I don't think you can compare the Bedford Autodrome with the Nordschleife. You don't usually "spin a few times " on the Nordschleife. The latter circuit came into being long before anyone dreamt of run-out zones or gravel traps. Just ask Niki Lauda............

    fritz



    Fritz,

    You are spot on with regard to concentration but for me that is sometimes the cause of a spin not the fact that I am on the limit.

    As for comparing Bedford and the Ring - that is certainly not my intention. They are miles apart. The point I was trying to make was rather that there are tracks - not public roads - where you can actually learn in a safe environment about your own limits and the limits of your car. I fully agree that the Ring is not such a place and also not a place where you should have a lapse in concentration...

    Cheers mate

    Apr 28, 2004 10:43:00 AM

    Flying_Dutchman
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    Reply to: TEE

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Too bad for this RS but IMO all race cars end up being involved in accidents sooner or later. That's the price of the fun to push to the limit. I was at SPA last WE, have no track experience whatsoever but was attracted seriously to take my C2 out there to have fun. I didn't but luckily could accompany my dealer for a few rounds in his 993RS ClubSport (for sale BTW!). It is simply marvelous to race a Porsche on track! Those cars are fit for it and if you can afford you should do it. In this respect it was appalling to note the number of damaged windscreens at SPA due to gravel on the track...caused by Porsches who went off the track Indeed it would have tempered my enthusiasm if I would have had to replace windscreen, lights and redo some paint or bodywork.

    Apr 28, 2004 1:56:55 PM

    Rufie
    Junior
    Rufie
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    Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Hey Dr Carrera,

    Have you also seen that orginal 550 Spyder on the track ?

    What do you guys think of that ? It's true that a Porsche is made to drive, but on the other hand the loss of such a historic Porsche would be bad, don't you think ?

    Rufie.

    Apr 28, 2004 6:40:07 PM

    Thomas
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    Thomas
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    Reply to: Rufie

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    Rufie said:
    Have you also seen that orginal 550 Spyder on the track ?



    Hi,

    I've seen the 550 Spyder on the track. Wonderfull car indeed. The guy was just cruising around the track so no real danger for the car. But I definitely need to replace the windscreen off my car

    Cheers
    Thomas

    Apr 29, 2004 8:10:46 AM

    TEE
    Veteran
    TEE
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: GT3 RS: one less!

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    hopefully not ulf who posted pics of his GT3 RS some time ago on this forum.



    Just read on another site that it was Ulf. Seems like he is fine as stated before. From all I have heared he is a very competent driver...

    TEE
     
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