Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 vs 997 s - Page2

Dec 24, 2006 6:36:21 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: pride355

Re: 997 vs 997 s

No pride355, unfortunately, this device only kicks in at about 5000rpm+.

If you don't have PSE, you'll hear it clearly. If you do have PSE, I understand that it does activate as normal so that you hear the Helmholtz Resonator AND PSE.

I write "I understand" because I haven't heard it myself yet. I am still running-in so I have been keeping the revs below 4000rpm.

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Dec 24, 2006 6:41:04 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: pride355

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
pride355 said:
Is it possible to keep that sound all the time?
What is this resonator for??

It optimizes power output at different engine speeds, so keeping it on all the time would be counter-productive because it would reduce power output below 5000 rpm.

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Dec 24, 2006 6:56:42 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
Is it possible to keep that sound all the time?
What is this resonator for??

It optimizes power output at different engine speeds, so keeping it on all the time would be counter-productive because it would reduce power output below 5000 rpm.

If I'm not mistakn the same performace can be achived with less "noise" if Porsche decided to design it that way.

Insted of "chosing"one sound for all of us and engineering it permanently into the car. Why not get a bunch of digital sounds (F1, GMV8, turbine (not turbo)) coordinate them with the throttle inputs and fill the cockpit with whichever sound you prefer?

I would choose "silent" or "turbine" because turbine is the only way to go anywhere for hp/wt.

As I said the Porsche-chosen built in sound gets on my nerves sometimes. I'm also not too thrilled when my neighbors hear me flooring the thing from three miles away. Would be great if car was whisper quiet at 0-100mph acceleration.

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Dec 24, 2006 7:02:40 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
Is it possible to keep that sound all the time?
What is this resonator for??

It optimizes power output at different engine speeds, so keeping it on all the time would be counter-productive because it would reduce power output below 5000 rpm.

If I'm not mistakn the same performace can be achived with less "noise" if Porsche decided to design it that way.

Insted of "chosing"one sound for all of us and engineering it permanently into the car. Why not get a bunch of digital sounds (F1, GMV8, turbine (not turbo)) coordinate them with the throttle inputs and fill the cockpit with whichever sound you prefer?

I would choose "silent" or "turbine" because turbine is the only way to go anywhere for hp/wt.

As I said the Porsche-chosen built in sound gets on my nerves sometimes. I'm also not too thrilled when my neighbors hear me flooring the thing from three miles away. Would be great if car was whisper quiet at 0-100mph acceleration.

What planet are you from?

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Dec 24, 2006 7:41:08 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: GA997S

Re: 997 vs 997 s

GA997S,

Broadly speaking, you're right. I believe the following conclusions can be drawn from this graph:

1) The key thing to appreciate about PASM is that PASM Normal is not a single suspension setting but it is instead a range of possible settings. Likewise, PASM Sport is a range of possible suspension settings as well. PASM calculates which setting to adopt at any point in time.

2) The respective ranges of possible settings of each of PASM Normal and PASM Sport do overlap. This is represented by the area on the graph in green and khaki stripes. What this means is that the stiffer range of PASM Normal can be as stiff (or stiffer) than PASM Sport might be and vice versa.

3) -20mm is consistently 'somewhat' stiffer (but not vastly so) than the standard suspension set up in the base 997.

4) -20mm is basically as stiff as the stiffest setting PASM Normal can be.

5) The standard suspension set up on the base 997 is approximately as stiff as the softest setting which PASM Sport can be.

6) -20mm is approximately half the stiffness of the range of settings which PASM Sport can be.

7) -20mm is approximately three quarters of the stiffness of the range of settings between the softest setting of PASM Normal and the stiffest setting of PASM Sport.

8) The standard suspension set up on the base 997 is around three quarters of the stiffness of the range of possible settings that PASM Normal can be.

9) The standard suspension set up on the base 997 is around half as stiff as the range of settings between the softest setting of PASM Normal and the stiffest setting of PASM Sport.

If anyone else can describe any other lessons that can be gleaned from this graph, then please feel free to step in here!

I will post this on another thread on the 997 Board. Hope this helps.

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Dec 24, 2006 7:47:17 PM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: GA997S

Re: 997 vs 997 s

I had a 2004 Carrera 4S and switched to a 997 Carrera S. I would have not changed the C4S for a regular 997 but thought it was worth it for the S version, definitely.

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Dec 24, 2006 8:52:37 PM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
MMD said:

If I'm not mistakn the same performace can be achived with less "noise" if Porsche decided to design it that way.

Insted of "chosing"one sound for all of us and engineering it permanently into the car. Why not get a bunch of digital sounds (F1, GMV8, turbine (not turbo)) coordinate them with the throttle inputs and fill the cockpit with whichever sound you prefer?

I would choose "silent" or "turbine" because turbine is the only way to go anywhere for hp/wt.

As I said the Porsche-chosen built in sound gets on my nerves sometimes. I'm also not too thrilled when my neighbors hear me flooring the thing from three miles away. Would be great if car was whisper quiet at 0-100mph acceleration.

Better go buy a Lexus SC430.

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Dec 24, 2006 8:57:37 PM

TulsaTurbo: Co-Pilot; Loc: Oklahoma, USA; Posts: 284, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 24, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
Is it possible to keep that sound all the time?
What is this resonator for??

It optimizes power output at different engine speeds, so keeping it on all the time would be counter-productive because it would reduce power output below 5000 rpm.

Would be great if car was whisper quiet at 0-100mph acceleration.

So get the 997TT!

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Dec 24, 2006 9:23:27 PM

SimonWall: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: GA997S

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
GA997S said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
...study the following graph carefully...

Nice graph. So the stiffest suspension setup is PASM Sport and the softest is PASM Normal. The 18's on the 997 probably feel close to PASM Normal w/ 19's.

The 19s with PASM and a car with 18s and conventional non-sport suspension indeed have comparable ride quality. I've tried both before buying. Comparible despite the 19' car having much lower profile rubber and being over shod for mostly cosmetic and marketing reasons. (I say mostly, because there is more grip in the dry).

The 18' wheels have slightly better steering feel, but still rather vague if you've experienced Lotus, Noble, Ultima or anything similar. The 19's have slightly less steering feel, but higher outright grip limits. With PSM activated a normal driver will be able to go faster more easily on a 19' PASM, PSM specified 997 C2S. That was my choice incidentally.

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Dec 24, 2006 10:00:04 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
This is represented by the area on the graph in green and khaki stripes.

I must disagree with you here...that top color is more burnt umber than khaki. Too much yellow.

Good explanation though.

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Dec 24, 2006 10:24:44 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: GA997S

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
GA997S said:

What planet are you from?

Awhhh, you're too kind.

Just watch in a few years this engine sound coming from the speaker system will be an option. Only us old timers will think it's a poser thing.

Anyway, the engine noise/sound thing is already embarassing; I mean when friends say, "Wow, listen to that engine." I always tell them that it's fake since Porsche purposely engineered it to sound that way (adds nothing to the performance of the car).

What do you and other guys say?

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Dec 24, 2006 10:36:59 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

MMD, what's up man? You've sounded even more malcontent in your posts nowadays than usual...

Cheer up man - it's Xmas - the season of cheesy commercial excess, binge eating and boozing...

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Dec 24, 2006 10:39:48 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: John H

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
John H said:

Better go buy a Lexus SC430.

Insted of my 997S? Nah... . Looks too f'ed up design wise IMO; they have all-too trendy alien-ugly insect-inspired styling (as opposed to mammal-inspired), Japanese not German, poor handling, not rear engine, won't match my 986S in the garage. It would be illogical to get one.

Just because I have Porsches and a BMW doesn't mean I am totally in love with them. I also am not completely convinced Porsche (the company) loves me back. They seem to be slightly catering to and flirting more with potential buyers who are boarderline-posers. Don't you think?

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Dec 24, 2006 10:51:42 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
MMD, what's up man? You've sounded even more malcontent in your posts nowadays than usual...

Cheer up man - it's Xmas - the season of cheesy commercial excess, binge eating and boozing...

LOL.

Nah, don't worry sir. Just embracing the dark side (current mother-in-law is in house).

As I said in other post, as much as WE love our Porsches I have come to believe Porsche does NOT love us back.

There are too many little BS things that they seem to want to pass off as "Excellent."

Things like SC having all those odds-and-ends in addition to the dash-timer; uneven soot in some exhaust tips that they say, without explanation, is fine (fine for whom?); fake quads, 19s; unmatching deviated stitching; no spare; no adjustments ten seconds after key is removed; there's a whole list somewhere. Maybe a topic for a whole other post for New Years Resolutions we can suggest to Porsche?

Awgggh..., where's my drrrrrrink...? ...guuuuuuuuuuuud der it izzzzzzz.

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Dec 24, 2006 11:00:47 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
MMD, what's up man? You've sounded even more malcontent in your posts nowadays than usual...

Cheer up man - it's Xmas - the season of cheesy commercial excess, binge eating and boozing...

LOL. Nah, don't worry sir. Just embracing the dark side (current mother-in-law is in house).

Oh, man!

That explains everything.

How come you let her stay the whole year, though?

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Dec 24, 2006 11:07:04 PM

throt: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 6078, Gallery; Registered on: May 9, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
fritz said:
Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
MMD, what's up man? You've sounded even more malcontent in your posts nowadays than usual...

Cheer up man - it's Xmas - the season of cheesy commercial excess, binge eating and boozing...

LOL. Nah, don't worry sir. Just embracing the dark side (current mother-in-law is in house).

Oh, man!

That explains everything.

How come you let her stay the whole year, though?

Nice one , fritz

... No , really ,, MMD brings balance to the board , instead of blowing sun up Porsche,s arse all the time

throt..

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Dec 24, 2006 11:31:36 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: throt

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
throt said:

Nice one , fritz ... No , really ,, MMD brings balance to the board , instead of blowing sun up Porsche,s arse all the time

throt..

LOL, thanks Throt.

No offense taken Fritz

I just try to be "objective," No need to totally love and and honor and use selective blindness as a coping mechanism for a freeking us$100K machine!

To be honest (not to be a sh*t) I think BMW does a better job of producing cars which match up to their advertising claims.

My passenger friend went into shock when he asked for and then I tell them the car has no mute/pause button on the radio/CD. Then I tell them there are several NONFUNCTIONAL buttons on the PCM! People can't f'ing believe things like that!! They can't believe Porsche would do such a thing as gloss over or omit some expected items. Just think about it. The common man's idea of Porsche's "Excellence," doesn't match the reality.

The HP wars? Totally unexpected BS as far as normal person is concerned when he hears for the first time Porsche is kinda wimpy in the HP department. Most normal people think Porsches are overkilled with HP.

I dunno, gotta go, nice blabbing with yas... .

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Dec 25, 2006 8:52:21 AM

Georges G. Hayek: Senior; Loc: Beirut , Lebanon; Posts: 650, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Do you know that a manual 997 outperforms a Tiptronic 997S;

Manual 997 vs. Tiptronic 997S

1- 5.0 sec / 0-100 km vs. 5.3 sec / 0-100 Km
2- 11.0 sec / 0-160 km vs. 11.6 sec / 0-160 km
3- 1395 kg vs. 1420 kg (DIN)

If you are seeking for REAL power, go for a GT3/RS or TT , but between a base and an S => 10000$ difference does not make sense to me. I would save those 10k for an eventual GT3/RS or TT trade-in next year or so.
Merry Christmas!

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Dec 25, 2006 2:58:03 PM

lukestern: Expert; Loc: Somewhere , United Kingdom; Posts: 1377, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: Georges G. Hayek

Re: 997 vs 997 s

With that logic... go for the cayman S which does 0-100 in 5.4 with manual transmission compared with a base carrera which does 0-100 in 5.5 with Tiptronic S

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Dec 25, 2006 5:56:01 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: lukestern

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Options? HP? 0-60? Nahhh... . It's all about spending money. THAT's the overarching logic.

Funny that Boxster/Cayman is such a deal, Carreras are not a bargain by anymeans, and the Turbo is a freeking hugely expensive car but a very cheap way to get into supercar territory.

SPEND SPEND SPEND, enjoy your Porsche by spending as much as possible.

Ideally you should buy a Porsche like you're buying great pair of shoes.

Merrrry Christmas Everybody!! Ho Ho Ho!

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Dec 25, 2006 9:00:13 PM

carreraman: Co-Pilot; Loc: Miami, FL; Posts: 163, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 14, 2005; Reply to: deedee

Re: 997 vs 997 s

"4, in 2-4 yrs, C2S will carry much better resale value."

This is incorrect. A long term study has concluded that the 997 C2 holds its' value best of all Porsche's. The difference is minor, 60% for the C2 vs. 57% for the C2S (after 36 months).

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Dec 25, 2006 11:22:40 PM

planenuts4speed: Co-Pilot; Loc: Tennessee , United States; Posts: 178, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2006; Reply to: carreraman

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
carreraman said:
"4, in 2-4 yrs, C2S will carry much better resale value."

This is incorrect. A long term study has concluded that the 997 C2 holds its' value best of all Porsche's. The difference is minor, 60% for the C2 vs. 57% for the C2S (after 36 months).

Using your figures, assuming an $80k C2 versus a 90k C2S, the cars would be worth $48,000 and $51,300 respectively after 3 yrs. So the "S" options netted an additional $3,300 in resale value (or it cost you $6,700 over 3 years, which works out to be approx. $6.20 per day--the price of a couple of cups of Starbucks

). IMO, this is worth it for all of the additional options it provides you--especially in comparion to other options that virtually add nothing to it's resale value.

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Dec 26, 2006 2:36:38 AM

997man: Newbie; Loc: usa; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: planenuts4speed

Re: 997 vs 997 s

I would expect to get more than $48,000 for my 2005 997 with 15,000 miles on it or is this all I should expect]

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Dec 26, 2006 2:48:46 AM

planenuts4speed: Co-Pilot; Loc: Tennessee , United States; Posts: 178, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2006; Reply to: 997man

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
997man said:
I would expect to get more than $48,000 for my 2005 997 with 15,000 miles on it or is this all I should expect]

This was an assumed value after 3 years.

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Dec 26, 2006 4:03:02 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: planenuts4speed

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Whew, I got about halfway through this exercise of obscene over-thinking, and threw in the towel..

It's pretty damn simple, just add up the individual costs of the equipment that comes standard on the S, hence optional on the non-S. Then ask yourself:

1. Would I like those options on my car?
2. Am I willing/able to spend that much money on those options?
3. And lastly, for the price that is the difference between the cost of the S upcharge (around $10K), and the aggregate cost of all the options that represents, would I like not only extra h.p., but extra TORQUE, along with better resale value???

It's a yes or no answer, depending on what winds your watch in a performance machine. Some people get the base 911 and think they're strapped to a rocket sled, others get the S with the X51, and they still feel like another 50 h.p. would be more like it. It's all in what you're used to, and what your expectations are.

Delving into infinite platitudes of statistics, reasoning, logic, theories of relativity, etc... is overthinking what is simply an option-package that includes a stouter mill.

Lastly, the next time someone brings up "0-60" times regarding high-performance 300+ h.p. machines, I'm going to figure a way to reach through my screen with a rubber chicken to slap that person across the head. 0-60 to a 911 is like a 2 meter dash for an olympic sprinter. 0-60 times are good for measuring Kia Rios and Ford Explorers. If you want to look at the difference the 3.8 brings to the table, you've got to AT LEAST allow the cars to get out of 2nd friggin gear....

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Dec 26, 2006 5:17:42 PM

997man: Newbie; Loc: usa; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: 997 vs 997 s

I used the 0-60 time because most people who drive these cars do not stay above 80 or 90 mph very long for daily driving and probably are in the 40-60 mph range more often than not . That being the case I have driven the S and non-S cars and I really do not feel much of a difference. My neighbor has a 996 turbo which he did a stage 3 kit on that really made a big difference. He says he has about 525 hp. His car is scary fast, too fast for a non-track car. As for your comment of reaching through the screen and smacking someone, you obviously have a big mental problem !

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Dec 26, 2006 6:28:30 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
69bossnine said:
Lastly, the next time someone brings up "0-60" times regarding high-performance 300+ h.p. machines, I'm going to figure a way to reach through my screen with a rubber chicken to slap that person across the head. 0-60 to a 911 is like a 2 meter dash for an olympic sprinter. 0-60 times are good for measuring Kia Rios and Ford Explorers.

ROFL

I guess your rubber chicken will be very busy

If you want PASM/-20mm, Xenon, PCM the S is a non-brainer IMO. The difference in 0-60 times is of academic value only, but irrelevant in real life, unless you are willing to replace your clutch every other 2,000 miles or so. Torque/in-gear-acceleration and - most important - the feeling how the engine delivers the power should be the decisive factors in the engine department. Guess I must be crazy to have paid a premium of 9,000 Euro for the Boxster S over the base Boxster, albeit the only tangible additional asset (apart from the slightly better brakes) is the better engine (and I surely didn't choose the bigger engine for the better 0-60 time)

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Dec 26, 2006 8:02:15 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
MMD said:
No offense taken Fritz

I would have been offended if you'd taken offense, MMD. It would have meant you'd taken my post seriously.

Quote:
MMD said:
To be honest (not to be a sh*t) I think BMW does a better job of producing cars which match up to their advertising claims.

You take advertising claims seriously? Jeez, that's even worse than taking my post seriously woulda been!

Quote:
MMD said:
My passenger friend went into shock when he asked for and then I tell them the car has no mute/pause button on the radio/CD. Then I tell them there are several NONFUNCTIONAL buttons on the PCM! People can't f'ing believe things like that!! They can't believe Porsche would do such a thing as gloss over or omit some expected items. Just think about it. The common man's idea of Porsche's "Excellence," doesn't match the reality.

You shoulda got the multifunction steering wheel like I did. You get even more buttons, all of them work, and at least one of them mutes the radio.

Maybe two, there are a couple more functions than I personally need or use.

Quote:
MMD said:
The HP wars? Totally unexpected BS as far as normal person is concerned when he hears for the first time Porsche is kinda wimpy in the HP department. Most normal people think Porsches are overkilled with HP.

Yeh, it's a real bummer having to drive a car which doesn't have more power than it can cope with when being driven in anything but a straight line on a dry road.

Wouldn't happen if you got an AMG or M6.

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Dec 26, 2006 8:09:53 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: 997man

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Quote:
997man said:
As for your comment of reaching through the screen and smacking someone, you obviously have a big mental problem !

997man, you don't think that 69bossnine's reference to slapping someone with "a rubber chicken" might be subtle hint that his threatened use of physical violence was not meant to be taken literally , do ya?

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Dec 26, 2006 8:20:51 PM

chili: Pilot; Loc: Bay Area - East Bay; Posts: 354, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Peace. Its the holidays.... Save it fot the new year.......

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Re: 997 vs 997 s

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Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

Re: 997 vs 997 s

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