Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Warming Up - Page1

Dec 18, 2006 3:58:17 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005

Warming Up

How long do you guys let your cars idle for before moving away?

Personally, I let the car idle until the engine sound settles down from the initial high rev that the engine management creates to warm the engine. I don't indulge in any spirited driving until the oil is fully warmed up.

My old man who is a fully trained mechanic always tells me off for moving away too early. He reckons the car needs more time to warm up for everything to work well. I have never in my 17 years of driving (35 now) followed his advice

The other day however, I started the car and had to perform a few menial tasks, they took more than 16 - 17 minutes! I was worried about my baby being neglected!!! However, when I started driving it felt COMPLETELY different to any other day. The gear change was the smoothest it has ever been and I swear it just pulled away so much more smoothly! The fuel consumption that day was even better than usual! I had to do a long drive - about 180 miles and I averaged a speed of 75 MPH with a fuel consumption of 31.5 MPG!!!!! DAMN!!!! Never ever acheived that before!

Before anyone says it, I didn't drive like a girl, I hit about 150 MPH at least 4 - 5 times for at least a few minutes each time and pulled away from lights like I stole the car a few times as well!

This morning I thought I would let it idle just for a minute or two before pulling away, felt way clunkier and a lot more sluggish in comparison to the other day. Tomorrow i am going to try to let it idle a bit longer and see what happens.

I am very interested in your opinions and experiences. My old man - can build a car and has done on many occasions reckons manufacturers are more concerned about the environment than our cars - the environment is more important but.....

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Dec 18, 2006 4:12:42 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Warming Up

Interesting experiences...the owner's manual specifically says one should not let the car warm up in a stationary position. It says that one should start the engine when one is ready to move away.

In practice, when I first start the car, I let the revs come back down a fraction after the initial start up high you described but I certainly don't let it idle for more than 1 minute.

I don't think the increased smoothness, lower fuel consumption has anything to do with the fact that your car was idling for 16-17 minutes. It's more down to the fact that you took it for a nice long drive. It's bound to run more smoothly as a result...

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Dec 18, 2006 4:17:19 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Warming Up

Hi Easy Rider - I just sent you a PM on a different subject - what a coincidence that you were the first to reply to my post.

I agree the long drive helps but the smoothness I mention was from pulling away after the idling not after the long drive.... Anyways, not going to loose any sleep over it. This is the 9th new Porsche I have had the pleasure of owning. I am up to 11,000 miles now and it just gets better! Enjoy lovely motor!

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Dec 18, 2006 5:54:08 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Warming Up

I figure the start-it-and-drive-off recommendation is an environmental thing. They put that concern in front of your car's engine lasting longer. When cold the car puts out more emissions; the faster it warms up (by driving it) the less emissions.

It's like antibiotics, they give them out less: your cold may be worse but the benefits to others are greater in the longer term as bugs gain resistance more slowly.

I'll suffer a cold a bit more, but I'm not gonna f'up my us$100K car for cleaner air.

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Dec 18, 2006 6:38:55 PM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: MMD

Re: Warming Up

Imo there's more in it than here above mentioned.

When you drive away immediately all components of the car get warmer at the same time: suspension, gearbox , brakes, engine, cats etc;
This really is important because when you are idling it, only the engine(water) gets hot, oil will never become as fast on temperature like when you were driving etc;
There is a good possibility that you will think everything is on temp and push your throttle to the bottom...

that moment you can damage your gearbox, suspension etc..

Another reason is the longlife of your exhaust, while letting it run idle there will be a moist buildup in the exhaust and cats which can damage them on long term;

Hopefully i was a bit clearing this out for you!

When cold, str-art, drive away smoothly and don't overrev (nly 3500-4000 rpm max) until your oiltemp on the dash shows around 90 degrees celsius

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Dec 18, 2006 11:33:55 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: beltar

Re: Warming Up

Interesting comments from guys, I think that there are a lot of factors to it. Most professional mechanics go with getting the engine reasonably warm. Exhausts and suspensions are way cheaper to replace than engines I guess...

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Dec 18, 2006 11:38:50 PM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Warming Up

I don't think PASM dampers etc are cheap to replace!

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Dec 18, 2006 11:54:49 PM

Malmsteen: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 493, Gallery; Registered on: May 16, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Warming Up

it happens to me from time to time too..
the car sometimes smooth and sluggish......

anyone know how to make the car "smoooth" all the time?

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Dec 18, 2006 11:59:10 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: Malmsteen

Never idle

Drive straight off, as per instruction book. I wouldn't let the car idle as I'm sure it does the cats and the engine no good just to sit there not moving. I change up at 3K until water is warm, then change up at 4K until oil is warm, after that...

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Dec 19, 2006 6:57:13 AM

beltar: Veteran; Loc: belgium , Belgium; Posts: 1232, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 15, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Never idle

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Drive straight off, as per instruction book. I wouldn't let the car idle as I'm sure it does the cats and the engine no good just to sit there not moving. I change up at 3K until water is warm, then change up at 4K until oil is warm, after that...

that's the way it should be... having my 4th p in 10 years without any prob..

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Dec 19, 2006 4:42:06 PM

Leawood911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Kansas, USA , United States; Posts: 6924, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 29, 2006; Reply to: beltar

Re: Never idle

I agree, never let the car sit and idle without moving. This used to be a cardinal sin with the old air-cooled engines and it still applies (although not for all the same reasons). Now that we have engine oil temps in the 997 it makes it even easier to determine when the genie can be let out of the bottle.
On a releated note -
I was selling an older 911 a few years ago and the prospective buyer, who claimed to be a very experienced Porsche owner, started the car and just let it sit and idle. After 60 seconds I ended his test and shut the car off. He did not like my rule of not letting the car idle and thought I was hiding a flaw or something - I may have lost a sale but rules are rules.

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Dec 19, 2006 6:54:38 PM

Weasel: Junior; Loc: GA; Posts: 125, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 5, 2006; Reply to: Leawood911

Re: Never idle

I find it hard to believe that allowing a P-car, or any other car, to idle until it warms up a bit harms anything more than the environment -- which may be reason enough for most not to do it. If I'm not mistaken, a major manufacturer added a similar instruction to the manuals of some of their vehicles several years ago after an independent study indicated that an engine left idling created more pollutants than one under a varying load.

I dunno. Interesting topic though . . .

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Dec 19, 2006 10:00:49 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: Weasel

Re: Never idle

This is a topic which gets many varied responses and opinions. I remember reading a while ago someone who had been driving P cars for more than 30 years that he ALWAYS kept his foot on the clutch whilst the engine was running and he was stationary. Now, I don't know about you guys but that is a cardinal sin in the books of nearly every professional driver I have ever met. However, Mr. Clutch Foot never had a problem and considered that reason enough to continue.....

I guess the manual is the most reliable source and personally as I mentioned at the outset, I don't let the car idle for more than a minute or two (while I remove my jacket hang it up, put my briefcase in the front, connect the phone etc) HOWEVER, I will ask a friend at Porsche Japan what he reckons, just to get his opinion....

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Dec 21, 2006 4:00:09 AM

Vincenzina: Pilot; Loc: Dubai UAE; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Never idle

Dealer told me no warm up on a new Porsche like this, I drive it easy til the engine warms up, then you know what happens...zzzzzooooooommmmm. In summer its alot easier than now when temps are freezin, but car is in garage..I noticed at 5am the other morning outside temp in garage was 44, then as I pulled out of driveway and went to starbucks, it went down to 36, man winter is a big bummer, but within 3 minutes seats and my bum is warm so all seems to be ok after that!!!!!

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Dec 24, 2006 4:25:05 PM

SimonWall: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: beltar

Re: Warming Up

Quote:
beltar said:
Imo there's more in it than here above mentioned.

When you drive away immediately all components of the car get warmer at the same time: suspension, gearbox , brakes, engine, cats etc;
This really is important because when you are idling it, only the engine(water) gets hot, oil will never become as fast on temperature like when you were driving etc;
There is a good possibility that you will think everything is on temp and push your throttle to the bottom... that moment you can damage your gearbox, suspension etc..

Another reason is the longlife of your exhaust, while letting it run idle there will be a moist buildup in the exhaust and cats which can damage them on long term;

Hopefully i was a bit clearing this out for you!

When cold, str-art, drive away smoothly and don't overrev (nly 3500-4000 rpm max) until your oiltemp on the dash shows around 90 degrees celsius

Yes - this advice is spot on. Drive gently from cold. And then once the whole car has had ample time to warm through there is nothing stopping you from driving the car to its limits... especially something as well built and relatively overengineered like a 911.

A pal of mine told me how he zoomed off down the road in his 996 every time he used it straight from cold. A month later his engine blew up.

So dont over-rev the engine or treat the rest of the car harshly when cold. But you should start driving gently pretty much immediately.

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Dec 24, 2006 4:37:59 PM

connoisseur: Senior; Loc: Nebraska; Posts: 752, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 30, 2005; Reply to: SimonWall

Re: Warming Up

Getting the water up to temp is one thing. Getting the oil up to temp is far more important givin its function. And the best way to get the oil up to temp is drive it gently. There is very good reason the guy blew up his 996.

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Dec 24, 2006 4:43:13 PM

hutchingsp: Newbie; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 48, Gallery; Registered on: May 25, 2006; Reply to: connoisseur

Re: Warming Up

As a bit of a side-topic, how do you deal with having to clear the windscreen in this cold weather?

Obviously the defrost/blowers are needed and you need the engine running to have these on - I'm with most of the opinion here which is get in, turn on, drive off and warm up gently but you can't do that with an iced up windscreen.

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Dec 24, 2006 5:25:34 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: hutchingsp

Re: Warming Up

Quote:
hutchingsp said:
As a bit of a side-topic, how do you deal with having to clear the windscreen in this cold weather?

Obviously the defrost/blowers are needed and you need the engine running to have these on - I'm with most of the opinion here which is get in, turn on, drive off and warm up gently but you can't do that with an iced up windscreen.

Remove ice from the outside with a good plastic scraper. Don't use one of those crappy sprays which just smear the glass.
Start engine, switch on AC's defroster setting - which means the AC is also on and removes moisture from the air it pumps onto the windshield, reducing condensation. You really need to do that in the damp climate you have in the UK.

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Dec 24, 2006 5:31:04 PM

SimonWall: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 84, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: hutchingsp

Re: Warming Up

Use de-icer on the windshield and or scrape it off with a plastic de-ice tool. Simple as that. (It will not hurt the car to have it running the minute or so it takes you to do that either. Point is dont leave the car running for ten minutes hoping to warm it up. Drive it gently to warm it up.)

Warming the car up is so important. I always - ALWAYS - warm my car or mbike up 100% before running them beyond 1/4 maximum revs. Once everything is up to working temperature I am quite happy to progressively drive them up to the red line.

Whenever I've bought a car second hand, I've asked the previous owner about their attitude to warming the car up. It is amazing how many people dont warm their cars up, and amazing how honest people are about being complete clutzes with their cars. Unless I think the previous owner has mechanical sympathy and pride in his ride I forget it.

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Dec 25, 2006 3:14:05 PM

Vincenzina: Pilot; Loc: Dubai UAE; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: SimonWall

Re: Warming Up

Its pretty self explanatory that when the oil temperature gauge shows warmed up, you know what you can do next. and I dont mean redline right off the bat. Anyone that drives hard before the oil temp reads normal is a friggin dork IMO..Its really all about pure common sense!!

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Dec 26, 2006 9:08:41 AM

mike Green: Newbie; Loc: ca. usa; Posts: 9, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 5, 2006; Reply to: Vincenzina

Re: Warming Up

why don't people like to follow the owners manual, its stats very clearly on pg.82 do not let engine idle to warm up.

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Dec 26, 2006 5:52:34 PM

NeVeTaS: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 5, 2005; Reply to: mike Green

Re: Warming Up

Might be rubbish but thats probably due to it polluting more into the enviroment. Also only the engine would heat and not other parts of the drive train, so you will go to boot it round a corner and tyres wont be warm. Cant actually see it damaging an engine though.

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Dec 27, 2006 7:23:42 PM

Puffy911: Pilot; Loc: Denver, Colorado, USA; Posts: 474, Gallery; Registered on: May 29, 2006; Reply to: Vincenzina

Re: Never idle

Quote:
Vincenzina said:
I noticed at 5am the other morning outside temp in garage was 44, then as I pulled out of driveway and went to starbucks, it went down to 36

How do your tires handle at 36 degF, are they not as grippy? Do you run "summer" tires year round in California or do you switch to a "winter" tire?

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Dec 28, 2006 3:21:59 AM

Vincenzina: Pilot; Loc: Dubai UAE; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: Puffy911

Re: Never idle

Quote:
Puffy911 said:
Quote:
Vincenzina said:
I noticed at 5am the other morning outside temp in garage was 44, then as I pulled out of driveway and went to starbucks, it went down to 36

How do your tires handle at 36 degF, are they not as grippy? Do you run "summer" tires year round in California or do you switch to a "winter" tire?

Hey Puffy how are you. I dont change my tires, as you know..I just put the PS2's Michelins on.. If I lived in the snow, I might change them, but these tires rock out, and no problem in winter weather, I dont notice a difference, I am too worried putting my seat warmers on to heat up my bum quickly lol!!!good question considering our temps have hit freezin lately.....Have a happy new year...

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Dec 28, 2006 3:53:31 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Vincenzina

Re: Never idle

The idea behind avoiding idling is that it takes much longer to reach operating temperature. Most damage is done prior to reaching operating temp. So the best advice, and the answer to the question, is drive the car right away, though do so gently. A 3k rpm limit until oil is at operating temp is probably good goal. After that, let her rip!

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Dec 28, 2006 4:22:56 AM

John H: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cheshire, UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 7682, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 20, 2005; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Never idle

How on earth did people manage without oil temp guages??

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Dec 28, 2006 4:30:25 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Puffy911

Re: Never idle

Quote:
Puffy911 said:
Quote:
Vincenzina said:
I noticed at 5am the other morning outside temp in garage was 44, then as I pulled out of driveway and went to starbucks, it went down to 36

How do your tires handle at 36 degF, are they not as grippy? Do you run "summer" tires year round in California or do you switch to a "winter" tire?

No real justification to switch to Winter tires in CA and particularly the Bay Area. But yes, when the temps dip below 50F you start feeling the tires hard when they start rolling. It takes a while to warm them and make them supple. What one feels when the tires are very cold are micro flat spots formed because the soft compound has not warmed up yet. Therefore, I do not like to start the car, drive to the corner store and stop (and cool again). when cold i like to drive it long enough 10-15m at 80MPH or so before I stop.

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Dec 29, 2006 3:19:09 AM

devo: Veteran; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 1107, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 31, 2006; Reply to: NeVeTaS

Re: Warming Up

Quote:
NeVeTaS said:
Might be rubbish but thats probably due to it polluting more into the enviroment. Also only the engine would heat and not other parts of the drive train, so you will go to boot it round a corner and tyres wont be warm. Cant actually see it damaging an engine though.

The fuel mixture is too rich. Warming while SLOWLY driving lessens that effect. The main reason is so the convertors will not get damaged from the rich mixture.

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Dec 29, 2006 1:56:31 PM

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registered on: May 28, 2005; Reply to: beltar

Re: Warming Up

Quote:
beltar said:
Imo there's more in it than here above mentioned.

When cold, str-art, drive away smoothly and don't overrev (nly 3500-4000 rpm max) until your oiltemp on the dash shows around 90 degrees celsius

Exactly what I do, and my car seems to pull more the more I drive it. Uses a bit of oil, though.

I think the engineering these days is so good that the differences in serviceable life from either technique are likely to be quite low, so even for a supercar, it makes sense to be a little bit greener by moving away pronto.

Just my ha'penny worth...

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Dec 29, 2006 5:01:36 PM

jerrygee: Junior; Loc: Julian, CA; Posts: 95, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 2, 2006; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: Warming Up

What's the point of sitting in an idling car? Back in the days of carburetors I could see waiting a bit as some automobiles had terrible drivability when cold but today's fuel injection vehicles are good to go as soon as the oil pressure has had a chance to reach normal (about 2 seconds). As others have stated, just drive off not using high load or rpm until the oil temp is up into the operating temperature range and then have at it.

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