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    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    "Finally, right now costly performance cars are in but each year traffic authorities are tightening enforcement and in the near distance future these cars will be useless on public roads. The market will implode. Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them will be scrambling to build US type cars.."

    Nick with all due respect you have got to be joking. Here in the UK, when I buy a mid-size Ford, I buy a Mondeo and most likely if I have any sense I buy the turbo diesel as it will do upwards of 50 mpg. In the US the equivalent vehicle I rented last time I was over was a 3.5 litre V6 that drove like a tank and barely managed 25 mpg for the entire week I was there...

    The US car market is the epitomy of poorly optimised engines with high consumption rates of fuel, for relatively little BHP. For crying out loud, your biggest selling vehicles are pick up trucks with V8 units that produce the worst emissions on the planet.

    This is why GM and Ford US are dying, because your consumers are wising up and realising that the foreign imports are far better products with a lower overall cost of ownership.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    American built cars are never compared with the Renault's Citroen Fiat ETC. but are compared to BMW, Porsche and Ferrari.



    Having lived in Europe and the US, I can assure you that American manufacturers are unable to build a decent economy car in the US, either. Oddly enough, their German subsidiaries can.

    Which leads me to...

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    Also, American's don't build expensive cars primarily because of Wall Street.
    Wall Street demands fast immediate return on investments made by publicly held companies. The shareholders want to make money now and make it fast. So many times short term, narrow minded stragegies, which have bad long term effects, will win over well thought out long term profitable brand value type strategies that don't provide immediate return.
    I am not a Warton graduate, but I would guess this is one of the big reasons why Ford, GM will never sink money and try to compete in this luxury class.



    I agree about American companies' short-sightedness in general. Unfortunately, this flaw is common everywhere. Conversely, Porsche is famous for refusing to publish quarterly results.

    I believe the lack of a universal pension and healthcare system in the US is the #1 culprit. Since the American subsidiaries of Japanese manufacturers are free from GM's or Ford's legacy costs, the latter just cannot compete. At a given price, the American car has $1,000 less value than its Japanese competitor (even if it's built in the US as well), just because of legacy costs. There's no way around that.

    On the other hand, their European subsidiaries still manage to put out competitive products (even though they are losing money as well) since the pension and healthcare burden is shared among all manufacturers (all businesses, actually).
    Even though Honda has been making cars in the UK for only 20 years, the healthcare issue gives it no competitive advantage over Ford UK, which has been there for over 80 years. As a result, a Ford Mondeo is still competitive with the corresponding Honda. A Ford 500 is not.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Totally different markets. Most of the intellectual property components started and were developed in the US. There is no dispute about that.



    I would not be so sure about it, at least in the automotive world. Unless Bosch has become an American company without telling us.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    Martyn J said:

    Nick with all due respect you have got to be joking. Here in the UK, when I buy a mid-size Ford, I buy a Mondeo and most likely if I have any sense I buy the turbo diesel as it will do upwards of 50 mpg. In the US the equivalent vehicle I rented last time I was over was a 3.5 litre V6 that drove like a tank and barely managed 25 mpg for the entire week I was there...

    The US car market is the epitomy of poorly optimised engines with high consumption rates of fuel, for relatively little BHP. For crying out loud, your biggest selling vehicles are pick up trucks with V8 units that produce the worst emissions on the planet.




    Martyn, I said befrore it was the market and taste that affected what was on the road. Detroit decision makers are afraid to lead the public away from what is proven to sell, big trucks and suv's. We have a large country with long driving distances and an economy where large pick-ups are needed. Believe it or not the pick-up is sized by its cargo bed which must be able to carry 4X8 sheets of plywood, wall board etc. laid flat. Why do you think toyota just began producing the tundra at a new plant. Japanese managers drinking our water too much?

    We have so many housing starts a year, that so many people work in that sphere that they need large pick-ups. At home they have large SUV's for their wives and kids to pile in to drive to a beach. Americans laugh at small cars with even smaller engines. I'm not saying its right just that is the way it is.

    US plants can produce just as high quality as any but Detroit makes the decision as to what. They have fallen down on the job in mid range family stuff.

    Spartanburg Plant
    BMW's car production plant near Spartanburg in South Carolina, USA, started production for the world market in 1994. Due to the great success of the BMW Z3, the Spartanburg Plant was soon enlarged to meet substantial demand from customers. Today Spartanburg also builds the BMW X5, the world's first sports activity vehicle. Facing the need to increase production capacity as a result, the Spartanburg Plant has established an additional production line in the body shop and in assembly. A further advantage of this production plant in the USA is that the BMW Group is less affected by fluctuations in exchange rates.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    I don't want to get into a political debate but...
    His rant was self serving.....anti-American......nationalistic (evreything British is better)......vomit (he wouldn't compare to other equally priced crappy european cars)....left wing socialist (clearly pandering to his audience and the last time I looked at a political map of europe).....crap (even Tiff Needell voted for the Z06 over the Ferrari).

    Look I don't care that he has an opinion, but as a "journalist" he does what most journalist do today, they put blinders on and report on the world the way they want to see it. He is not reporting objectively.

    Yes, he is funny and entertaining and I will watch him again and again....but because I love cars, not necessarily his opinions.

    BTW, I am european, from Spain. I love it there but prefer it here. I became a US citizen and plan to live out my life here. I understand why both continents do the things that they do and I don't knock my former continent for their decisions. I am not anti-Euorpean. I still maintain a home there.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    carreraman said:
    I don't want to get into a political debate but...
    His rant was self serving.....anti-American......nationalistic (evreything British is better)......vomit (he wouldn't compare to other equally priced crappy european cars)....left wing socialist (clearly pandering to his audience and the last time I looked at a political map of europe).....crap (even Tiff Needell voted for the Z06 over the Ferrari).

    Look I don't care that he has an opinion, but as a "journalist" he does what most journalist do today, they put blinders on and report on the world the way they want to see it. He is not reporting objectively.

    Yes, he is funny and entertaining and I will watch him again and again....but because I love cars, not necessarily his opinions.

    BTW, I am european, from Spain. I love it there but prefer it here. I became a US citizen and plan to live out my life here. I understand why both continents do the things that they do and I don't knock my former continent for their decisions. I am not anti-Euorpean. I still maintain a home there.



    Wasn't a shot at you bashing Clarkson, it was just the wording you used (and it would give the liberals in the UK a heart attack if they heard you ).

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    I hear you Crash.
    Maybe I too wanted to provoke some liberal heart attacks!

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    We have a large country with long driving distances and an economy where large pick-ups are needed. Believe it or not the pick-up is sized by its cargo bed which must be able to carry 4X8 sheets of plywood, wall board etc. laid flat. We have so many housing starts a year, that so many people work in that sphere that they need large pick-ups. At home they have large SUV's for their wives and kids to pile in to drive to a beach. Americans laugh at small cars with even smaller engines. I'm not saying its right just that is the way it is.


    Just adding my pint of petrol to the fire...
    Do you (American) lot need to go get some dry-wall to hammer up every week? Doesn't anyone deliver??
    Surely if you drive long distances, a more economical, efficient car is better? Especially as you are so famously frugal?
    I'm only teasing.... (I think!)

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    racerx said:
    We have a large country with long driving distances and an economy where large pick-ups are needed. Believe it or not the pick-up is sized by its cargo bed which must be able to carry 4X8 sheets of plywood, wall board etc. laid flat. We have so many housing starts a year, that so many people work in that sphere that they need large pick-ups. At home they have large SUV's for their wives and kids to pile in to drive to a beach. Americans laugh at small cars with even smaller engines. I'm not saying its right just that is the way it is.


    Just adding my pint of petrol to the fire...
    Do you (American) lot need to go get some dry-wall to hammer up every week? Doesn't anyone deliver??
    Surely if you drive long distances, a more economical, efficient car is better? Especially as you are so famously frugal?
    I'm only teasing.... (I think!)



    Don't forget it's the country of Home Depot and every house is made of wood thiner and lighter than carpets.

    Maybe they need pick-up trucks because they built their homes themselves ... you know like our IKEA stores. You buy the stuff but you have to built it yourself. Well, sort of. Because the thing never looks like the one on the picture. Maybe they buy cars and homes like we go to IKEA. That's why their cars are so bad. They're put together by people who don't really know what they are doing, like europeans when they buy stuff at IKEA.

    I'm just messing with you guys. Just kidding

    I've never understood the need of pick-up trucks. I've been to LA and there are lots of people driving around in those like if LA was a big ranch in the middle of texas. What are they using it for?

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    I like Heaven and the Hell DVD also.

    It was so funny when destroying some cars

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    I've never understood the need of pick-up trucks. I've been to LA and there are lots of people driving around in those like if LA was a big ranch in the middle of texas. What are they using it for?



    There is a big difference in typical lifestyles between the USA and Europe.

    If I lived in suburban or rural USA, I'd also want one of my cars to be a pick-up truck or SUV.

    Ooops, come to think of it, though I live in Europe one of my cars already is ........

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    amazon said:
    I've never understood the need of pick-up trucks. I've been to LA and there are lots of people driving around in those like if LA was a big ranch in the middle of texas. What are they using it for?

    How many dirt bikes, ATV's, dead deer, surfboards and square yards of rock, bark or dirt or camping gear or furniture can you fit into a Cayenne or a VW Polo?

    Then you have the whole towing category - boats, race cars, campers, skimobiles, horses, mothers in law.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    But how often do you ride a dirt bike or ATV, hunt, surf, remodel your garden, tow a boat, race car, camper, horse van or mother in law? How often do you go where a regular car cannot go?
    Just what I thought.

    We just use a trailer. When we need it, and only when we need it. Besides, you'd be surprised how much a midsize Diesel sedan can tow.
    In the rare cases that's not enough, we rent a truck (and a small one by American standards).

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    @Groom -

    Actually more than you think, and a small car with minimal ground clearance is less than useless. I don't think you have a firm idea of just how big the outdoor recreation industry is in America - it is huge.

    If people arent doing it, they are planning to it.

    Good luck pulling horses inside a enclosed trailer up to
    Tahoe or over Grants pass with a sedan or a small truck.
    Impossible.

    Just a little about just the Horses

    We have lots of horses in America, with your thinking they would all be stuck at home

    This is right from the Horses mouth:

    There are 9.2 million horses in the United States.

    . 4.6 million Americans are involved in the industry as horse owners, service providers, employees and volunteers. Tens of millions more participate as spectators.

    . 2 million people own horses.

    . The horse industry has a direct economic effect on the U.S.of $39 billion annually.

    . The industry has a $102 billion impact on the U.S.economy when the multiplier effect of spending by industry suppliers and employees is taken into account. Including off-site spending of spectators would result in an even higher figure.

    . The industry directly provides 460,000 full-time equivalent (FTE) jobs.

    . Spending by suppliers and employees generates additional jobs for a total employment impact of 1.4 million FTE jobs.

    . The horse industry pays $1.9 billion in taxes to all levels of government.

    . Approximately 34% of horse owners have a household income of less than $50,000 and 28% have an annual income of over $100,000. 46% of horse owners have an income of between $25,000 to $75,000.

    . Over 70% of horse owners live in communities of 50,000 or less.

    . There are horses in every state. Forty-five states have at least 20,000 horses each.

    Numbers of Horses

    The study concludes that there are 9.2 million horses in the U.S., including horses used for racing, showing, competition, sport, breeding, recreation and work. This includes horses used both commercially and for pleasure.

    Specifically, the number of horses by activity is:

    Racing 844,531

    Showing 2,718,954

    Recreation 3,906,923

    Other 1,752,439

    Total 9,222,847

    4.6 million people are involved in the horse industry in some way, either as owners, employees, service providers or volunteers. This includes 2 million horse owners, of which 238,000 are involved in breeding, 481,000 in competing, 1.1 million involved in other activities, 119,000 service providers and 702,000 employees, full- and part-time and 2 million family members and volunteers. That means that 1 out of every 63 Americans is involved with horses.

    Warning! Horses can cost you more to maintain than that F430 you might want!


    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    But how often do you ride a dirt bike or ATV, hunt, surf, remodel your garden, tow a boat, race car, camper, horse van or mother in law? How often do you go where a regular car cannot go?
    Just what I thought.

    We just use a trailer. When we need it, and only when we need it. Besides, you'd be surprised how much a midsize Diesel sedan can tow.
    In the rare cases that's not enough, we rent a truck (and a small one by American standards).




    thank you.

    Yes I moved twice. But I never saw the need of buying a camping van or a pick-up truck. Do you guys ever heard of Avis, europcar, Hertz and so on...that's what they are for.

    Why ruin your life with a pick truck when you can just rent one if it's needed. Most europeans go skiing during winter holidays. We don't buy a 4 by 4 just to go on vacation. You sent stuff if it's needed, or you rent what you need on location. BTW, I have a freind who has a chalet in verbier, and he's really well off. What does he do? He go there with his 2 door VW polo diesel. It's only front wheel drive, it has a 1.9TDI and you can put tons of stuff in the trunk because it's a hatch.

    Don't tell me every american is a home builder/track racer/camper/ranch cowboy/surfer/gardener/horse rider/hunter/famer/joe the plumber and mother in law mover kind of guy ...

    BTW, It's sounds a lot like george bush's day activities.


    This topic is so funny. I'm laughing just writing this.

    Fire back at will. I deserve it.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Don't tell me every american is a home builder/track racer/camper/ranch cowboy/surfer/gardener/horse rider/hunter/famer/joe the plumber and mother in law mover kind of guy ...

    BTW, It's sounds a lot like george bush's day activities.


    This topic is so funny. I'm laughing just writing this.




    If only George W had stuck to these activities these last few years instead of trying to play at being President the world would have been spared an awesome amount of trouble.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Amazon, most US skiers dont own a chalet, or even know where Verbier is. Many just drive up and back in the same day. Skiing here is more democratic and not just a sport for the rich, the blingers or the old money people.

    Fritz, the zone of incompetence awaits your practical and effective concepts on world security from your area in the zone of appeasement. What are they?

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    fritz said:

    If only George W had stuck to these activities these last few years instead of trying to play at being President the world would have been spared an awesome amount of trouble.



    What trouble are you referring to? The way it looks over here is that thw world is ignoring a great deal of trouble.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    So....

    How about that 911 huh?

    Um...I hear it's a pretty good car.

    Um...

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Amazon, most US skiers dont own a chalet, or even know where Verbier is. Many just drive up and back in the same day. Skiing here is more democratic and not just a sport for the rich, the blingers or the old money people.





    Skiing is also democratic sporst in europe. What I was trying to say is that even rich people don't but a pick-up truck to go skiing even thoug you could see the point of a 4WD with lots of boot space.

    Jim, may I ask where you live and If you also have a pick-up truck?

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    fritz said:

    If only George W had stuck to these activities these last few years instead of trying to play at being President the world would have been spared an awesome amount of trouble.




    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    carreraman said:
    Quote:
    fritz said:

    If only George W had stuck to these activities these last few years instead of trying to play at being President the world would have been spared an awesome amount of trouble.



    What trouble are you referring to? The way it looks over here is that thw world is ignoring a great deal of trouble.



    I believe he was referring to the botched invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. In place of wasting resources in Iraq, you could've put 100.000 troops in Afghanistan and really built up a country. Instead, Rummy and Dummy embarked on an escapade of epic and disastrous proportions in Iraq.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    From the usually anti-bush bbc and its readers;

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6192815.stm

    "
    The problem is not the Americans, the excuse is the Americans. What we have at the moment in Iraq is organised chaos used to foster political and religious idealogies (much like the cold war).
    Oladapo, Maputo, Mozambique

    It's depressing to read so many stories of death and destruction. But if coalition forces leave, things will only get worse and the international community despite its differences in 2003 must come togther and achieve peace and stability. The US should not pull out. Neither should any other country.
    New Zealand
    "

    Our only fault in Iraq is not doing a complete makeover a la MacArthur in Japan for 20 years

    The problem is Sunni and Shiites killing each other. The US soldiers are in harms way dying every day so that these people can live in freedom and peace. We are not trying to own the joint or steal any oil. In fact I'm amazed at how slow it has been to get the oil pumping.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Crash, the invasion of afghanistan was not "botched" - but the aftermath - with a Taliban safe haven in Waziristan, the usual local corruption, the huge Iranian influence in the region, the none to clever western military prediliction for being road bound, the ability for the Taliban to regroup in the tribal areas of Pakistan, the safe havens for key Al Quaida people in Iran,the "special clauses" used by some NATO countries to escape their full responsibilities etc.. But those are the conditions and thats the playing field. So whats your solution? Play Ustashi of the Hindu Kush? Too radical. Hide behind the British Army? Not enough boots on the ground. Change the culture of Afhghanistan with a magic wand? Sorry, but there is no Disney war channel with garaunteed 30 minute happy endings.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:We have lots of horses in America - 2 million people own horses.


    That's about 0.7% of a population of 295,734,134. Spouting statistics isn't going to impress anyone!

    But it is a lot of fun winding you all up. So many buttons to press!

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Crash, the invasion of afghanistan was not "botched" - but the aftermath - with a Taliban safe haven in Waziristan, the usual local corruption, the huge Iranian influence in the region, the none to clever western military prediliction for being road bound, the ability for the Taliban to regroup in the tribal areas of Pakistan, the safe havens for key Al Quaida people in Iran,the "special clauses" used by some NATO countries to escape their full responsibilities etc.. But those are the conditions and thats the playing field. So whats your solution? Play Ustashi of the Hindu Kush? Too radical. Hide behind the British Army? Not enough boots on the ground. Change the culture of Afhghanistan with a magic wand? Sorry, but there is no Disney war channel with garaunteed 30 minute happy endings.



    Neither was Iraq during the first few days. They screwed up the invasions with poor occupation plans. Afghanistan would need at least another 50.000 troops and Iraq could do with 100-150.000 additional soldiers. Sure, the Taliban have safe havens, but when you tighten the noose enough and overwhelm them with superior man- and firepower, they won't be able to sustain their efforts, no matter what. More troops is the most basic and most effective answer. TWhy would they want to negotiate as long as they can get away with it? Kill off their fighting force and you'll see their demeanor change quite dramatically.
    The question that remains to be answered is whether or not the American people would support such measures. After all, you lost in Vietnam because of political pressure, not militarily.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    racerx said:
    From the usually anti-bush bbc and its readers;

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6192815.stm

    "
    The problem is not the Americans, the excuse is the Americans. What we have at the moment in Iraq is organised chaos used to foster political and religious idealogies (much like the cold war).
    Oladapo, Maputo, Mozambique

    It's depressing to read so many stories of death and destruction. But if coalition forces leave, things will only get worse and the international community despite its differences in 2003 must come togther and achieve peace and stability. The US should not pull out. Neither should any other country.
    New Zealand
    "

    Our only fault in Iraq is not doing a complete makeover a la MacArthur in Japan for 20 years

    The problem is Sunni and Shiites killing each other. The US soldiers are in harms way dying every day so that these people can live in freedom and peace. We are not trying to own the joint or steal any oil. In fact I'm amazed at how slow it has been to get the oil pumping.



    Of course! The extremists know that if the US actually delivers on its promise and builds a stable and prosperous democracy in Iraq, it's pretty much game over for them. I guess the Bush administration didn't see that coming and are now facing troop shortages in the face of ever growing insurgency. Personally, I hope that you send in an extra 100.000 troops as soon as it becomes possible to do so. It's the only way to get Iraq to stabilize.

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Clarkson is funny if you ask me and that's how I like to understand what he's saying...I do understand that he's desperately trying to find something to rant about his hurt British ego, long gone are the days of the empire, but I prefer to ignore that and stay with the funny side of the thing...

    I haven't ever been to the states, I've got family there though and they've told me about the vast difference between the two continents..I've also known many Americans in person and I've seen how different they are...to me different isn't bad...in my eyes USA is a wonderful country...I like that it's so spacious and not cramped like we are in europe, I like that there big is better, I like that until recently you could have those huge V8s and not give a damn about gas prices, I love those huge roller coasters...what's so bad with all those things??? they just state that the people out there have a different philosophy of life...I like to think that USA is what Europe would have become if we hadn't been so damn conservative...

    about the cars...I don't know if anyone in here has studied marketing but when you design each product has its target market...and each company has a certain position in consumer's minds...i.e. who would buy a $200.000 Kia??? I bet Kia can make such a car if they wanted...it's a matter of finance really...but they know there wouldn't be any customers for such a product...on the other hand, why Porsche has to work harder for its products when the effort they're putting in is more than enough??? I mean...why run faster when you know you are the winner anyways??? we have to understand that globalisation has opened the markets and everything is accessible nowadays..even technology with the exception of the one used by the army..

    so the American companies make the cars they make because their consumers ask them to do so, because those cars fill their needs the most...it's the same with European cars...why don't we have city cars with V6 engines or at least 2lt ones, while instead we have 1,4 or 1,2 engines??? because gas prices are high and the people wouldn't buy cars because they wouldn't afford their maintenance...then our cars are smaller because we have less space available, they handle better because we have more twisty and tight roads than the Americans and so on...

    recently I went to a car show and they had a Viper there...I saw the dashboard and I have to say my 2006 Ford 2.3lt Transit Van has a better built dashboard...needless to say that my other cars are way way better...but it's the Viper and it's got its own character..and for that I like it...and for that reason I like the Vette too although I have to admit that the Z06 I saw recently didn't have any visual drama...maybe because right before that I saw a Ferrari 599 but boy does it have the noise!

    anyways...I believe the key to this whole issue is culture...if you try to elaborate and understand on the different culture of the Americans and Europeans, then it all starts to make sense

    Peace

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:We have lots of horses in America - 2 million people own horses.


    That's about 0.7% of a population of 295,734,134. Spouting statistics isn't going to impress anyone!

    But it is a lot of fun winding you all up. So many buttons to press!




    Whoa, the wind up is purely ..gratuitous!

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    P.S.: If by chance any of you decides to visit my country, don't you ever walk across a street like that!!! because you'll be going home in a coffin LOL we are really aggressive drivers...like the Italians for instance...but I've read somewhere that the wost European drivers are either the ones from Luxembourg or Belgium...can't recall which one...

    Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly

    Quote:
    MarcusRay said:
    P.S.: If by chance any of you decides to visit my country, don't you ever close a street like that!!! because you'll be going home in a coffin LOL we are really aggressive drivers...like the Italians for instance...but I've read somewhere that the wost European drivers are either the ones from Luxembourg or Belgium...can't recall which one...



    The ones with the lower speed limits.

     
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