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Dec 21, 2006 12:21:41 AM
- carreraman
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Give me a break!!! The only decent comparison was the Viper vs the M4. Why? It's because of the cost. The point of the Vette, especially when compared to a Ferrari is that you get loads of fun in very similiar conditions for a fraction of the price. The same when it came to the Chrysler 300 SRT vs the BMW 750. The Chrysler is less than Half the freakin price LESS THAN HALF!!! A BMW 330 would have been appropriate.
Look, Clarkson is right when he rants that we Americans are based on some sort of consumer disposable society, Yes we look for bargains and lease them. That saves us money.
I recognize that many European cars are "better", but I (we) pay for that difference. I truly wish that an American car company would say, OK we are going to compete in the high end car market luxury and sport. Instead, they buy them or merge with them. Land Rover, Jaguar, Aston, Mercedes the list goes on and on.
Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap.
Look, Clarkson is right when he rants that we Americans are based on some sort of consumer disposable society, Yes we look for bargains and lease them. That saves us money.
I recognize that many European cars are "better", but I (we) pay for that difference. I truly wish that an American car company would say, OK we are going to compete in the high end car market luxury and sport. Instead, they buy them or merge with them. Land Rover, Jaguar, Aston, Mercedes the list goes on and on.
Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap.
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Usually his attitude is entertaining, but that is just such a setup, that it's ridiculous and seems even tinged with serious dislike playing to some snobbish european bent.
In the car comparisons he left out his own Ford GT and the Saleen, maybe even an old vector or a Shelby Cobra. Those could handle top speed runs and handling.
Many Jeep models could easily beat the rover up any hill at a quarter the price.
He also compares tiny european manufacturers selling niche products to large scale builders that have to make cars that sell in big volume. American cars have to sell to an average buyer, not a select few.
I,m 2/3's thru where he is interviewing drug addicts in vegas and I'm waiting to hear him say just kidding. Perhaps he should have gone up to Palo Alto to ask questions about geography. So far his dislike of everything american in this is just weird.
In the car comparisons he left out his own Ford GT and the Saleen, maybe even an old vector or a Shelby Cobra. Those could handle top speed runs and handling.
Many Jeep models could easily beat the rover up any hill at a quarter the price.
He also compares tiny european manufacturers selling niche products to large scale builders that have to make cars that sell in big volume. American cars have to sell to an average buyer, not a select few.
I,m 2/3's thru where he is interviewing drug addicts in vegas and I'm waiting to hear him say just kidding. Perhaps he should have gone up to Palo Alto to ask questions about geography. So far his dislike of everything american in this is just weird.
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Clarkson is very entertaining. I could watch all day.
Regarding American cars, the US comsumer priorities are vastly different than Europe. If Americans wanted to build a car without concern for their customer base they could build one that would trash most European cars.
American engineering is second to none. We build planes, fly to the moon, computers, software and products that the ROW covets. We must mass produce most Europeans don't.
Regarding American cars, the US comsumer priorities are vastly different than Europe. If Americans wanted to build a car without concern for their customer base they could build one that would trash most European cars.
American engineering is second to none. We build planes, fly to the moon, computers, software and products that the ROW covets. We must mass produce most Europeans don't.
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
nberry said:
Clarkson is very entertaining. I could watch all day.
Regarding American cars, the US comsumer priorities are vastly different than Europe. If Americans wanted to build a car without concern for their customer base they could build one that would trash most European cars.
American engineering is second to none. We build planes, fly to the moon, computers, software and products that the ROW covets. We must mass produce most Europeans don't.
BUT SHAME ! i still drive a european car!
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
I watched this guy for awhile but couldn't stand him after the Vette. IMO he's a joke. I'm sure the Z06 is far better than he portrays, maybe not in the Porsche or Ferrari league for street use, but certainly not that bad. Wonder what he thinks of the GT40?
Mike
Mike
Dec 21, 2006 10:09:38 AM
- rosso nuvola
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
993Targa said:
They like to provocate, that what makes it funny. They also give Porsche a hard time in the show, but the Hamster and I think the other guy drive one privately. Think Clarkson drives an AMG SLK now
That is not true , JC is politically incorrect , he says what he has to say , without being afraid
, any other jornalist that would have destroyd a Toyota with a machine gun , would be uninployed the day after , or his Tv program/magazine would lose , all the publicity...
Dec 21, 2006 10:22:45 AM
- rosso nuvola
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
nberry said:
Clarkson is very entertaining. I could watch all day.
Regarding American cars, the US comsumer priorities are vastly different than Europe. If Americans wanted to build a car without concern for their customer base they could build one that would trash most European cars.
American engineering is second to none. We build planes, fly to the moon, computers, software and products that the ROW covets. We must mass produce most Europeans don't.
everybody flys to the moon these days , computer chips are almost all produceded in Asia,are you shore that Europeans don't mass product ??? dont take me wrong is just you chosse some bad examples. ...peace
Dec 21, 2006 10:30:55 AM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
"American engineering is second to none. We build planes, fly to the moon, computers, software and products that the ROW covets. We must mass produce most Europeans don't."
Nick, even by your standards, this is way off the mark. I love the USA and its people (but I loathe the present Bush Administration) so don't get me wrong (and no offence is intended by this) but there used to be a time when "Made in the USA" meant something. For some time now, "Made in Germany" and "Made in Japan" have meant so much more. It's a very, very bitter pill to swallow. We in Britain know this only too well. Our own manufacturing sector died long ago. We've had to accept this. Our economy is now bouyed up by the tertiary and financial sectors and is fuelled by credit card based consumer demand.
The products of so many American brands are now mass produced abroad where costs are so much cheaper. My Apple iPod is designed in California but made in China. My Ralf Lauren T shirts are made in the Philippines. My Nike trainers are made in Vietnam. My Griots Garage micro fibre cloths are made in South Korea. Need I go on?
BTW Europeans mass produce too: Renault, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo, Saab, Seat, Skoda, VW.
"Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap."
carreraman, FYI JC is right-wing. He is not a left-wing socialist.
Nick, even by your standards, this is way off the mark. I love the USA and its people (but I loathe the present Bush Administration) so don't get me wrong (and no offence is intended by this) but there used to be a time when "Made in the USA" meant something. For some time now, "Made in Germany" and "Made in Japan" have meant so much more. It's a very, very bitter pill to swallow. We in Britain know this only too well. Our own manufacturing sector died long ago. We've had to accept this. Our economy is now bouyed up by the tertiary and financial sectors and is fuelled by credit card based consumer demand.
The products of so many American brands are now mass produced abroad where costs are so much cheaper. My Apple iPod is designed in California but made in China. My Ralf Lauren T shirts are made in the Philippines. My Nike trainers are made in Vietnam. My Griots Garage micro fibre cloths are made in South Korea. Need I go on?
BTW Europeans mass produce too: Renault, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo, Saab, Seat, Skoda, VW.
"Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap."
carreraman, FYI JC is right-wing. He is not a left-wing socialist.
Dec 21, 2006 10:55:49 AM
- amazon
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Yes a vette doesn't cost the price of a ferrari, but it wasn't his point. He tested the best of what america has to foffer but he didn't find a US car to match a 360CS, a carrera GT or jaguar XK. It's like US car manafacturers dont even bother to try. Why cadillac or chevy don't try to make an expensive sports car like a ferrari is quite an interesting question. It's not a question of can or can't they built a sportscar as good as a F599. The question is more why they don't?
Americans could built car that they would sell for the price of a 911 turbo, but they don't. All they built is the FORD GT, wich is based on such a design that it will never be practical, no matter how effort you put in building it.
Americans should com up with a car from scratch, a car that will be as well built as a Audi, as reliable as a golf diesel, as comfortable as a 911 carrera, ... and as fast as the corvette Z06. Such a car would obviously cost 150K to 200K to buy. But the question still remains: why on earth don't they built one. At least one.
It was the same argument with the ferrari symphony against the vette's engine noise. You've had the best of america against the best of europe, even though prices are not comparable. But there are no american cars of such price. There are no 200k chevy or ford GT.
He concluded that the ferrari sounds ten times better. And he's right. The question should be: why on earth ford or gm don't built a car that sounds as good as a ferrari? I'm sure they could, but the question is why they don't?
Americans could built car that they would sell for the price of a 911 turbo, but they don't. All they built is the FORD GT, wich is based on such a design that it will never be practical, no matter how effort you put in building it.
Americans should com up with a car from scratch, a car that will be as well built as a Audi, as reliable as a golf diesel, as comfortable as a 911 carrera, ... and as fast as the corvette Z06. Such a car would obviously cost 150K to 200K to buy. But the question still remains: why on earth don't they built one. At least one.
It was the same argument with the ferrari symphony against the vette's engine noise. You've had the best of america against the best of europe, even though prices are not comparable. But there are no american cars of such price. There are no 200k chevy or ford GT.
He concluded that the ferrari sounds ten times better. And he's right. The question should be: why on earth ford or gm don't built a car that sounds as good as a ferrari? I'm sure they could, but the question is why they don't?
Dec 21, 2006 11:37:57 AM
- Crash
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
"Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap."
carreraman, FYI JC is right-wing. He is not a left-wing socialist.
That's always the accusation the more militant Americans make: "Left-wing, socialist propagandist crap"
. Also to add, the only reason the Americans managed to even get anything off the ground were the German scientsts.
And breaking the sound barrier was entirely due to the British abandoning their supersonic program and giving all the data to the Americans.
What Americans are good at is innovation, IMO.
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
amazon said:
Yes a vette doesn't cost the price of a ferrari, but it wasn't his point. He tested the best of what america has to foffer but he didn't find a US car to match a 360CS, a carrera GT or jaguar XK. It's like US car manafacturers dont even bother to try. Why cadillac or chevy don't try to make an expensive sports car like a ferrari is quite an interesting question. It's not a question of can or can't they built a sportscar as good as a F599. The question is more why they don't?
Americans could built car that they would sell for the price of a 911 turbo, but they don't. All they built is the FORD GT, wich is based on such a design that it will never be practical, no matter how effort you put in building it.
Americans should com up with a car from scratch, a car that will be as well built as a Audi, as reliable as a golf diesel, as comfortable as a 911 carrera, ... and as fast as the corvette Z06. Such a car would obviously cost 150K to 200K to buy. But the question still remains: why on earth don't they built one. At least one.
It was the same argument with the ferrari symphony against the vette's engine noise. You've had the best of america against the best of europe, even though prices are not comparable. But there are no american cars of such price. There are no 200k chevy or ford GT.
He concluded that the ferrari sounds ten times better. And he's right. The question should be: why on earth ford or gm don't built a car that sounds as good as a ferrari? I'm sure they could, but the question is why they don't?
Did anyone read my post before Nick's?
The US manufacturer's don't like to build small volume products, it does not make sense for them. The economy of scale is different.
The markets are different, tatse's are different. Shelby and Saleen are the niche producers here. But I think GM will be making their blue devil soon as an exception to the rule. Fair comparisons would be Gm to Renault or fiat.
There is no luxury car builder in the US anymore. They all died off during the great depression and WW II such as packard, cord/auburn, and duesenburg.
As to american engineering, it is as good or better than exists anywhere, but you have to realize our economy is heavily weighted to the military industrial complex. That is where the engineers and national wealth is spent. Unfortunately that leaves us short on some infrastructure and luxuxry goods to some extent. However we still lead in biomed.
And don't forget this little thing called the internet started as ARPANET, a way to keep US military functions connected in case of soviet nuclear attack.
Dec 21, 2006 2:55:06 PM
- easy_rider911
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
"Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap."
carreraman, FYI JC is right-wing. He is not a left-wing socialist.
That's always the accusation the more militant Americans make: "Left-wing, socialist propagandist crap"
Also to add, the only reason the Americans managed to even get anything off the ground were the German scientsts.
And breaking the sound barrier was entirely due to the British abandoning their supersonic program and giving all the data to the Americans.
What Americans are good at is innovation, IMO.
Von Braun was the driving force of nasa in the 1960's and a great visionary but hardly doing the nitty gritty. As to the first;
http://www.astronautix.com/astros/goddard.htm
Being factually correct helps arguments.
Guys let me know when a european will step on the moon for the first time. Thank God Bush has done something right with his decision to go back to the moon and then to Mars. That is a major step in ensuring engineering proficiency.
BTW Maglev train technology was invented at MIT, but our govt. spends too much on defense and therefore Germany and china run with it.
Dec 21, 2006 3:02:26 PM
- racerx
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
No, the http internet was created by Sir Tim Berners Lee as a way for scientists to send messages and documents to each other quickly and cheaply.
Are we talking protocol or the actual network infrastructure on which the protocol travels?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Best line I could find;
"The term is often mistakenly used as a synonym for the Internet itself, but the Web is a service that operates over the Internet, as e-mail does. The history of the Internet dates back significantly further than that of the World Wide Web"
Yes Tim Berners Lee gets credit for http, but I was referring to the actual network of computers talking to one another over a packet switched connection of which http is one form along with ftp etc.
NO world wide web without the internet, so please give thanks to the US defense dept. for all our binary fun!
"The term is often mistakenly used as a synonym for the Internet itself, but the Web is a service that operates over the Internet, as e-mail does. The history of the Internet dates back significantly further than that of the World Wide Web"
Yes Tim Berners Lee gets credit for http, but I was referring to the actual network of computers talking to one another over a packet switched connection of which http is one form along with ftp etc.
NO world wide web without the internet, so please give thanks to the US defense dept. for all our binary fun!
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
racerx said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
"Clarkson's rant is nothing more than a typical self serving anti-American nationalistic vomit of left wing socialist crap."
carreraman, FYI JC is right-wing. He is not a left-wing socialist.
That's always the accusation the more militant Americans make: "Left-wing, socialist propagandist crap"
Also to add, the only reason the Americans managed to even get anything off the ground were the German scientsts.
And breaking the sound barrier was entirely due to the British abandoning their supersonic program and giving all the data to the Americans.
What Americans are good at is innovation, IMO.
Von Braun was the driving force of nasa in the 1960's and a great visionary but hardly doing the nitty gritty. As to the first;
http://www.astronautix.com/astros/goddard.htm
Being factually correct helps arguments.
Guys let me know when a european will step on the moon for the first time. Thank God Bush has done something right with his decision to go back to the moon and then to Mars. That is a major step in ensuring engineering proficiency.
BTW Maglev train technology was invented at MIT, but our govt. spends too much on defense and therefore Germany and china run with it.
I never discredited your space program, just gave credit where it was due. Personally, I'm psyched that you are planning to build a moon base (just make sure to equip it with weapons, in case any Chinese vessel comes too close).
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Quote:
racerx said:
Fair comparisons would be Gm to Renault or fiat.
The problem is, Renault makes much, much better cars than GM or Ford. Better materials, better build quality and finish, better equipment, better roadholding, better comfort, better everything except maybe for styling (it takes a Pontiac Aztek to beat a Renault Vel Satis in that department
). There is simply no comparison. I'll agree about Fiat, though. It should be pretty telling that GM replaced the entire lower half of the Chevrolet lineup with Daewoo models. What happened to American pride and engineering?
Clarkson is spot on about the average American consumer being cheap. Cars are much cheaper in the US, but their quality sucks, and their standard equipment list is about as bare as Nicole Richie's fridge. I suppose American consumers want it that way.
Otherwise, I could not explain why Ford Germany and Opel can build decent (albeit bland) cars for the European market, but Ford US and Chevy cannot. Or why German-built VW Golfs are solid vehicles, but their Mexican sisters built for the US market are not. Or why the previous-generation Mercedes ML 320 (made in the US for the US market) was a POS, but the diesel Mercedes ML 320 CDi (made in Austria for the EU market) was not. Or why Honda sells EU-spec cars as Acura in the US.
Quote:
racerx said:
As to american engineering, it is as good or better than exists anywhere, but you have to realize our economy is heavily weighted to the military industrial complex. That is where the engineers and national wealth is spent. Unfortunately that leaves us short on some infrastructure and luxuxry goods to some extent.
That's the problem with America today. I know of another superpower that used to put all its resources and talent towards the military. It did not even last 75 years before it collapsed.
Dec 21, 2006 4:51:39 PM
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nberry
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Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
American built cars are never compared with the Renault's Citroen Fiat ETC. but are compared to BMW, Porsche and Ferrari. Totally different markets. Most of the intellectual property components started and were developed in the US. There is no dispute about that.
I agree American quality is inferior to ROW but again you need to compare apples to apples.My point and I believe RACERX's point is, if a US car manufacturer wanted to build a porsche, ferrari or MB like car they could do it and I would wager do it better. The reason why they don't is they would not sell very well and are not economically feasible. Most of their customer base will not buy a $150,000-200,000 car.
I couple of examples. One of the big selling feature of Ferrari 599 is it magnetic suspension which European and Asia car manufacturers are raving about. GM developed and patented it and has it in their Corvette. Ferrari bought from GM. Porsche is bragging about VSG in its Turbo but it is very old technology and I believe it was developed by Catepillar again a US company.
Finally, right now costly performance cars are in but each year traffic authorities are tightening enforcement and in the near distance future these cars will be useless on public roads. The market will implode. Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them will be scrambling to build US type cars.
I agree American quality is inferior to ROW but again you need to compare apples to apples.My point and I believe RACERX's point is, if a US car manufacturer wanted to build a porsche, ferrari or MB like car they could do it and I would wager do it better. The reason why they don't is they would not sell very well and are not economically feasible. Most of their customer base will not buy a $150,000-200,000 car.
I couple of examples. One of the big selling feature of Ferrari 599 is it magnetic suspension which European and Asia car manufacturers are raving about. GM developed and patented it and has it in their Corvette. Ferrari bought from GM. Porsche is bragging about VSG in its Turbo but it is very old technology and I believe it was developed by Catepillar again a US company.
Finally, right now costly performance cars are in but each year traffic authorities are tightening enforcement and in the near distance future these cars will be useless on public roads. The market will implode. Ferrari, Porsche and the rest of them will be scrambling to build US type cars.
Re: Clarkson- the good, the bad and the ugly
Here is Clarkson reviewing the GT-40.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2484644722318196723&q=jeremy+clarkson
Also, American's don't build expensive cars primarily because of Wall Street. I know this statement can be somewhat confusing (especially to non-Americans), but in America, if a product is not sucessful in 1 year, it is considered a failure. Wall Street demands fast immediate return on investments made by publicly held companies. The shareholders want to make money now and make it fast. So many times short term, narrow minded stragegies, which have bad long term effects, will win over well thought out long term profitable brand value type strategies that don't provide immediate return. This is capitalism major fault. Where do you find a balance? Long term strategies are great, but people don't want to take those chances and potentially fail. A short term mistake is recoverable, a long term mistake is a business disaster.
I am not a Warton graduate, but I would guess this is one of the big reasons why Ford, GM will never sink money and try to compete in this luxury class.
At best you will see some existing brands like Corvette, Cadillac put out a few specialty cars. By using these platforms to create one or two high end cars, this allows them to justify the business model without long term investments.
So, we are happy that the Z06/Blue Devil/XLR/Viper exist, but for the reason's stated above, you will never see anything beyond this.
I do think by GM marketing the Corvette in Europe and particpating/winning LeMans, they are working hard on a long-term effort to raise brand perception. They knew they had to make it fast and cheap. If they can peak your interest with one or two cars now, maybe 5-10 years down the road, that will change to several platforms.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2484644722318196723&q=jeremy+clarkson
Also, American's don't build expensive cars primarily because of Wall Street. I know this statement can be somewhat confusing (especially to non-Americans), but in America, if a product is not sucessful in 1 year, it is considered a failure. Wall Street demands fast immediate return on investments made by publicly held companies. The shareholders want to make money now and make it fast. So many times short term, narrow minded stragegies, which have bad long term effects, will win over well thought out long term profitable brand value type strategies that don't provide immediate return. This is capitalism major fault. Where do you find a balance? Long term strategies are great, but people don't want to take those chances and potentially fail. A short term mistake is recoverable, a long term mistake is a business disaster.
I am not a Warton graduate, but I would guess this is one of the big reasons why Ford, GM will never sink money and try to compete in this luxury class.
At best you will see some existing brands like Corvette, Cadillac put out a few specialty cars. By using these platforms to create one or two high end cars, this allows them to justify the business model without long term investments.
So, we are happy that the Z06/Blue Devil/XLR/Viper exist, but for the reason's stated above, you will never see anything beyond this.
I do think by GM marketing the Corvette in Europe and particpating/winning LeMans, they are working hard on a long-term effort to raise brand perception. They knew they had to make it fast and cheap. If they can peak your interest with one or two cars now, maybe 5-10 years down the road, that will change to several platforms.
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