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Dec 17, 2006 1:11:03 PM
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MKSGR
- Rennteam Moderator
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- Loc: Germany , Germany
- Posts: 8098, Gallery
- Registered on: Jun 17, 2002
- Reply to: Nick_Athens
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
9000 - 10000$ for 610hp is not a fortune...
... 6-10k for 610hp is a clear signal: don't buy this package. It is fishy
Honestly, real and reliable 610hp cost much more than 5-8k Euro
They are reliable enough for the US market. However, for Europe, they should nickname the car "Schadenfreude". Or perhaps use the license plate "EINBILDEN" from the yellow car
.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
9000 - 10000$ for 610hp is not a fortune...
... 6-10k for 610hp is a clear signal: don't buy this package. It is fishy
Honestly, real and reliable 610hp cost much more than 5-8k Euro
Do you work for the Airbus marketing dept?
Does that make the Z06's HP more fishy than the 997tt? If one actually researched the backround on this tuner, one would see that the gains are through efficiency improvements and diminished exhaust restrictions, and that this is done with the same stock rev limit. EGT's are lowered by 50-100 deg F, gas mileage is the same. Porsche will probably charge us $50k for the exact same thing next year in either a GT2 or "S" or "X5x" form and everyone will complain about it being too much.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
eclou said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
9000 - 10000$ for 610hp is not a fortune...
... 6-10k for 610hp is a clear signal: don't buy this package. It is fishy
Honestly, real and reliable 610hp cost much more than 5-8k Euro
Do you work for the Airbus marketing dept?
Does that make the Z06's HP more fishy than the 997tt? If one actually researched the backround on this tuner, one would see that the gains are through efficiency improvements and diminished exhaust restrictions, and that this is done with the same stock rev limit. EGT's are lowered by 50-100 deg F, gas mileage is the same. Porsche will probably charge us $50k for the exact same thing next year in either a GT2 or "S" or "X5x" form and everyone will complain about it being too much.
Eclou, I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
What is there about the X-50 package (assuming the engine stays at 3.6 liters) that can't be retrofited at the dealership? 
Are the internals of the engine that modified or is it simply exhaust and ECU. Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. 
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
Alan(NJ) said:
why you would want to take a marvelous street car and spend a fortune to turn it into a slow dragster. I've got my flame suit on
I hate drag racing, but how else would you test a performance upgrade in a sports car?, on the street with a g-tech?
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
eclou said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
9000 - 10000$ for 610hp is not a fortune...
... 6-10k for 610hp is a clear signal: don't buy this package. It is fishy
Honestly, real and reliable 610hp cost much more than 5-8k Euro
Do you work for the Airbus marketing dept?
Does that make the Z06's HP more fishy than the 997tt? If one actually researched the backround on this tuner, one would see that the gains are through efficiency improvements and diminished exhaust restrictions, and that this is done with the same stock rev limit. EGT's are lowered by 50-100 deg F, gas mileage is the same. Porsche will probably charge us $50k for the exact same thing next year in either a GT2 or "S" or "X5x" form and everyone will complain about it being too much.
eclou, don't waste your time, I was waiting for the "real and reliable hp" to come up any minute.
Dec 17, 2006 5:26:20 PM
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Nick_Athens
- Senior
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- Loc: Greece , Greece
- Posts: 710, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 23, 2004
- Reply to: AAHTT
Re: can someone explain to me
Sorry But Evo is a very reliable tuner in US..
See how many cars has made more that 700hp... (996 GT2s and Turbos)
On the other hand drag racing was his only option to Prove that his car do 0-400m under 11s. Everyone can see it.. Were you going to believe him if he was saying so, with a driftbox result or without a proof?!?!
See how many cars has made more that 700hp... (996 GT2s and Turbos)
On the other hand drag racing was his only option to Prove that his car do 0-400m under 11s. Everyone can see it.. Were you going to believe him if he was saying so, with a driftbox result or without a proof?!?!
Dec 17, 2006 5:34:17 PM
- Crash
- Rennteam VIP
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- Loc: Never been to , Antarctica
- Posts: 8287, Gallery
- Registered on: Oct 17, 2002
- Reply to: Nick_Athens
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
Nick_Athens said:
Sorry But Evo is a very reliable tuner in US..
See how many cars has made more that 700hp... (996 GT2s and Turbos)
On the other hand drag racing was his only option to Prove that his car do 0-400m under 11s. Everyone can see it.. Were you going to believe him if he was saying so, with a driftbox result or without a proof?!?!
EVO is certainly reliable and nobody is discounting the numbers they have achieved (they are one of the better outfits in the whole of NA IMO). However, MKSGR is targeting their packages' applicability towards the European market. It just wouldn't hold out well in Germany. Now, I'm positive that they could make such a package if European sales were in their interest, but they aren't. That's what MKSGR wanted to point out, not vomit all over their product.
Re: can someone explain to me
Based on the above demeaning commentary on the tuned 997TT from the same characters who still refuse to accept that the ZO6 could be a fast car, I have to surmise that the comments reflect a combination of envy and insecurity that an American tuner, of all things, could come up with a mod. that works reasonably well. Sad, but true.... 
The other tuners (RUF, RS-Tuning et al) have and will come up with packages, all with their own strengths and drawbacks, and I will be the first one to praise them ALL-to the extent that they perform. And we won't want to criticize them when they prove that they can perform-whether on the drag strip, the Autobahn, the 'Ring, or simply on the street as a daily supercar driver.
Mentioned again by Todd Zuccone from EVO on the 6speedonline thread is that they are working on a mod. with a BIGGER VTG for next year. If only we could get info. from our forum members with Porsche contacts about a bigger VTG that Porsche might be using-and how it might compare to the tuners' developments....
The other tuners (RUF, RS-Tuning et al) have and will come up with packages, all with their own strengths and drawbacks, and I will be the first one to praise them ALL-to the extent that they perform. And we won't want to criticize them when they prove that they can perform-whether on the drag strip, the Autobahn, the 'Ring, or simply on the street as a daily supercar driver.
Mentioned again by Todd Zuccone from EVO on the 6speedonline thread is that they are working on a mod. with a BIGGER VTG for next year. If only we could get info. from our forum members with Porsche contacts about a bigger VTG that Porsche might be using-and how it might compare to the tuners' developments....
Dec 17, 2006 8:14:45 PM
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Nick_Athens
- Senior
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- Loc: Greece , Greece
- Posts: 710, Gallery
- Registered on: Feb 23, 2004
- Reply to: guy2
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
guy2 said:
but waht is very interesting, they use the standard vtg-turbos for their 610hp package, lol
The car with 610hp has the following..
EVT S4 610
-GIAC ECU Calibration for EVTS4 - 91 octane 7000 RPM Rev limit
-HJS 100 cell metal core OBDII compliant catalysts
-EVO Muffler bypass pipes w/ twin tips
-EVO VTG sport headers with ceramic coating
-EVO Clubsport intercoolers
-EVO 4 -pc silicone hose kit w/ clamps
-EVO flat panel air filter
Sorry but I believe them.. Also they are totaly reasonable in their price for all the above stuff...
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
Based on the above demeaning commentary on the tuned 997TT from the same characters who still refuse to accept that the ZO6 could be a fast car, I have to surmise that the comments reflect a combination of envy and insecurity that an American tuner, of all things, could come up with a mod. that works reasonably well. Sad, but true....
The other tuners (RUF, RS-Tuning et al) have and will come up with packages, all with their own strengths and drawbacks, and I will be the first one to praise them ALL-to the extent that they perform. And we won't want to criticize them when they prove that they can perform-whether on the drag strip, the Autobahn, the 'Ring, or simply on the street as a daily supercar driver.
Mentioned again by Todd Zuccone from EVO on the 6speedonline thread is that they are working on a mod. with a BIGGER VTG for next year. If only we could get info. from our forum members with Porsche contacts about a bigger VTG that Porsche might be using-and how it might compare to the tuners' developments....
You seem to be a gullible customer, sorry
A RUF with a similar hp will set you back Euro 275k, RS will charge Euro 40-50k (or even more) for their >600hp kit.
And evo? They do it for 6-8k Euro???
I hope you see my point. Certain things in life simply do not happen
Or to put it with Merton Miller: their are no free lunches
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Yes sorry the 997tt and X-50.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
MKSGR said:
You seem to be a gullible customer, sorry
A RUF with a similar hp will set you back Euro 275k, RS will charge Euro 40-50k (or even more) for their >600hp kit.
And evo? They do it for 6-8k Euro???
I hope you see my point. Certain things in life simply do not happen
Well perhaps people in europe have come to expect being fleeced a bit?
My 944 turbo has gone from 220hp stock to 380-400hp now with less than $3k euros in modifications. Reliable as a daily driver but with over 5k track miles. That is about $15/hp gained.
In my E36M3 US spec it cost me about $15k in mods to get an extra 75 hp. That is about $200/hp gained.
Forced induction - especially turbocharged - cars are very easy (inexpensive) to get more power out of. That is the nature of the combustion engine. Modding a turbo motor is like running downhill. Some of us will relax and enjoy this phenomenon.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
SciFrog said:
Could someone explain with more precision how they can squeeze so much hp for an ECU reprogramming with turbo cars?
Is P being too conservative with their ECU to make the car bullet proof anywhere in the world?
You only have to look at the boost pressure curve to understand where the untapped power lies. The boost rolls on to a peak and then swiftly rolls off. The boost pressure is determined by the ECU. Each 1 lb of boost is worth roughly 20 hp/tq on this motor. If the boost is held to 18# instead of bleeding off to 11-12# at redline, an extra 120hp is possible.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
SciFrog said:
So P is holding the boost at high rpm, probably due to higher stress on the engine. Makes sense.
Yes, but you also have to remember that an engine will typically detonate at torque peak (4k rpms) and not at HP peak (>6k rpms). The main risk of just cranking up the boost is that you are pushing alot more air into the combustion chamber without necessarily maintaining the correct mixture with fuel. An air/fuel ratio richer than 12:1 is necessary, preferably closer to 11:1 to keep disaster from occuring. Excessive ignition advance is also undesirable in a turbo car, so all these must be properly addressed to keep the motor from grenading.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Yes sorry the 997tt and X-50.
Well, since there is no X50 kit offered for the 997 TT engine, it could explain why you haven't got an answer to your question.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Yes sorry the 997tt and X-50.
Well, since there is no X50 kit offered for the 997 TT engine, it could explain why you haven't got an answer to your question.
That was cute..
Assuming there isn't a significant difference in the engne from the 996tt (other than VTG) then this shouldn't present too challenging a hurdle. But if it does, could not a typical dealership have performed the X-50 upgrade on a 996tt thereby making it an authorized upgrade. Or was there more to the upgrade than ECU and exhaust modifications. Thanks
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Yes sorry the 997tt and X-50.
Well, since there is no X50 kit offered for the 997 TT engine, it could explain why you haven't got an answer to your question.
That was cute..
Steel syncros for 1st and 2nd gears, shorter 6th gear, GT2 intercoolers. May also be other mods, but I can't remember.
Re: can someone explain to me
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:Quote:
fritz said:Quote:
LoranTw said:
I must have asked this question here 3 or more times..:-) But here goes again.
Are you talking about an X50 package in conjunction with the 997 TT engine?
Yes sorry the 997tt and X-50.
Well, since there is no X50 kit offered for the 997 TT engine, it could explain why you haven't got an answer to your question.
That was cute..
Steel syncros for 1st and 2nd gears, shorter 6th gear, GT2 intercoolers. May also be other mods, but I can't remember.
Yes,
I believe a tranny cooler, as well.
And of course the K24 turbo's instead of the K16's.
So, for the 997TT, the VTG's change the picture somewhat, although in a similar vein to the 996TT, the question rages as to whether the 997TT-PK/S will involve a bigger VTG, or the same VTG with changes to the ECU only (like permanent overboost).
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