Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great? - Page2

Dec 10, 2006 12:12:37 PM

sws1: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 83, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006

Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

I've now had my C2S for a little over a week and thought I'd throw in some random commentary.

First off, I love this car. I'm only posting this to get an intelligent discussion going.

In the past, I've generally driven rear-wheel drive, front engine performance cars (M3, M5). Given the engine in the 911 is in the rear, I was expecting a handling difference, but I don't think I would have thought it would be as noticeable. Let me explain.

In corners, it is VERY easy to feel the balance of the car change based on how much trottle is provided. It's not subtle IMO. I'm still in the break-in period, and at 3000 RPM, I can feel the front end "lighten" in mid corner with even a little gas. With the cars I came from, you didn't get that much sensation of balance change.

So, that would lead me to believe right there that to maximize the potential of the 911, one must be a more skilled driver. Correct?

If I perfect my driving skill, will the 911 handle better a M3? I'm assuming this would be case, otherwise we have a more difficult car to drive that, when perfected, isn't as good.

Is the analogy between the 911 and front engined cars like the difference between a short surfing board and a long surfing board? A long board is easier to handle, particularly for the beginner, but the short board will allow you do maneuver better.

Does a race car have similar handling tendencies? What about other high-end cars? Ferraris?

Again, I'm not antagonizing. I'm truly seeking comments from folks who are good drivers / racers on their reactions.

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Dec 10, 2006 2:38:46 PM

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Nice to hear that you recognize the differences that your right foot can impart.

Remember that the accelerator pedal is a rehostat, not an on/off switch.

Want to fully experience the capabilities of the car and have the time of your life?
Make the time, sign-up and attend the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE).

http://www.porschedriving.com

Some PDE videos I've done:
Click HERE

It's worth every dime,

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Dec 10, 2006 3:05:18 PM

catdog: Junior; Loc: United States; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2005; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Welcome and thank you for pointing this out. The 911 especially the C2 vs. C4 is a very special car with unique handling characteristics. It is much more sensitive to throttle input and braking etc. That's what makes it fun but also dangerous if not appreciated and managed appropriately. The rear-engine layout provides it with the impressive traction under throttle that has contributed to its success in racing to some extent. These 911 characteristics have also been attenuated and managed thanks to PSM/traction control making it much easier to drive fast compared to before.
When comparing it to the M3/M5 the BMW's are going to be much easier to go faster with for a novice, no doubt about that, i can tell from personal experience having just come from an e46 M3 then e60 M5. Those cars have very predictable and stable standard layout with nicely controllable responses starting with mild understeer then throttle-induced nicely-controlled oversteer. They also isolate the driver from the feedback from the car so they are very efficient but not really as communicative.
Like you i was initially shocked by how much throttle-induced understeer and off-throttle oversteer the C2S still had (also C4S seems much less affected by this), but you have to first wait until the tires have been scrubbed in which can sometimes take 500 miles or so to happen. After the tires are run in you will have less of that tendency except of course on poor traction surfaces.
Part of the fun of the 911 is learning how to use it right to achieve the best results and i am still learning as well. When one has become expert at it then it may be faster than the M3 (although the M3CSL i think is still faster than the C2S on the Nurburgring) but the 911 driver will no doubt be working harder than the M3 driver all things such as weight and engine power being the same.
I think....

BTW, thank you for injecting some freshness into the discussion topics, i think this is the kind of insight that would really help the forum rather than what kind of stitching or color wheels or whether RS of regular GT3 looks better in this or that color with this ir that colored wheel. Honestly, not flaming and love the forum but wish we could elevate the level of technical discussion to include handling and driving fine points to better appreciate what these cars were really meant for: driving not posing

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Dec 10, 2006 3:46:32 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: catdog

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Coming from several bmws to my first 911 3 years ago, I felt the same thing. At first I was annoyed, now 4 911's later I'm a junky. The rear engine makes for engaging driving, and the attitude of the car can really be adjusted with throttle inputs. It really is a load of fun.

If you really want to see what the C2S is made of, turn off traction control and push the car in a slow, safe, tight corner, like a u-turn on a quiet street. The car will plow like crazy! The factory dialed in a lot of understeer in to the stock C2S, but then relied on PSM to individual wheel brake to hold understeer at bay. The PSM system is truly amazing in its scope and doesn't interfere in an obnoxious manner.

Now, compared to my Ferrari, the 911 is a pussycat, with very predictable handling. I'm selling the ferrari and going back to a GT3.

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Dec 10, 2006 4:03:48 PM

catdog: Junior; Loc: United States; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

I agree with you, PSM is quite impressive, light years ahead of bmw's DSC which is extremely obtrusive and abrupt even in the MDM variation. I have been turning off PSM here and there and am impressed with all it seems to be doing in the background. Does the 360 have traction/handling control? That's one car on my next to-do list? should i skip it and go to GT3 next?

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Dec 10, 2006 4:35:15 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: catdog

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Frayed, that was fast!

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Dec 10, 2006 4:49:39 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

There are three axes the car typically rotates about during driving. The 911 has a very low polar moment for two axes and a very high polar moment for one. 1) Turn-ins or direction change is quick and effortless because of the low polar moment (much lower than front and somewhat lower than mid engine cars). This axis is vertical through the rear diff. 2) Throttle steer is also more pronounced in the 911 because of the lpm about the horizontal axis along the rear axle. This makes it easier to modulate the force on the front tires by lifting (accelerating) and forcing down (engine braking) the front of the car. 3) The only axis that the 911 compromises with a rear engine is the vertical axis between the front tires. This only happens when the rears break free; however, Porsche has given this car so much rear traction with fat tires, rear engine weight, & psm. The 997 gives us great driving characteristics while taming the tail.

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Dec 10, 2006 5:02:58 PM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: Texas911

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

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Dec 10, 2006 6:44:41 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: frayed

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Unlike, say, the Boxster (which is immediate fun) The more you learn how to drive the 997/S the more fun it is.

I went to BMW driving school a while ago and the stuff I learned there I applied to learning how to drive a rear engined P-car on the streets. You really have to get some HSpeed track knowledge and experience to drive this car well and enjoy it the most. Of course going to the 997-dedicated driving school in Birmingham would be infinitely more fantastic.

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Dec 11, 2006 10:53:37 AM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
sws1 said:
In corners, it is VERY easy to feel the balance of the car change based on how much trottle is provided. It's not subtle IMO. I'm still in the break-in period, and at 3000 RPM, I can feel the front end "lighten" in mid corner with even a little gas. With the cars I came from, you didn't get that much sensation of balance change.

So, that would lead me to believe right there that to maximize the potential of the 911, one must be a more skilled driver. Correct?

I'm also coming from M3. I had 3 M3s before and I have done more than 3000 km with my 997 C2s w/sport chassie.

You are correct about understeer behaviour of 911 but if you carry speed till the mid. of the corner instead of accelerating, 911 tends to oversteer. It is easier to modelate the car than M3. E46 M3 was softer, and rolls more. I think the biggest difference is in exit of the corners.

Due to better traction, once you turn in the car, you step on the throttle and while you have oversteer, front end of the car is planted on the road. M3 oversteers, drifts nicely but you can put as much power on as you did with 911.

On high speed corners, 911 is like a go-cart and again handles better; carries more speed and rolls less.

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Dec 11, 2006 1:17:04 PM

sws1: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 83, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: frayed

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

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Dec 11, 2006 3:54:20 PM

pride355: Rennteam Pro; Loc: iSTANBUL , Turkey; Posts: 2475, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 28, 2005; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
sws1 said:
Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

I have driven my friend's F360 Modena once and it was definately harder to drive as fast as a 911 or M3.
The car keeps the driver always in alert mode and when it oversteers, the whole car slides.

You can't predict the car in the corners and it doesn't bild any confidence in the driver.

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Dec 11, 2006 4:10:42 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: pride355

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
pride355 said:
Quote:
sws1 said:
Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

I have driven my friend's F360 Modena once and it was definately harder to drive as fast as a 911 or M3.
The car keeps the driver always in alert mode and when it oversteers, the whole car slides.

You can't predict the car in the corners and it doesn't bild any confidence in the driver.

So what's this whole fuss about mid-engined layout cars

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Dec 11, 2006 4:32:10 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
Jeannot said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
Quote:
sws1 said:
Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

I have driven my friend's F360 Modena once and it was definately harder to drive as fast as a 911 or M3.
The car keeps the driver always in alert mode and when it oversteers, the whole car slides.

You can't predict the car in the corners and it doesn't bild any confidence in the driver.

So what's this whole fuss about mid-engined layout cars

Mid-engined cars handle best, until you reach the limit. They change directions quickest and the whole car moves as one (unlike 911 which can sometimes feel like the front and back are sort of each on their own path). However, once you start to slide, the mid-engined cars are twitchier and spin much faster (like a skater bringing her arms in - mass in the center). Here a 911 really shines - lots of fun when you start to slide - easier to steer with the throttle...

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Dec 11, 2006 6:37:25 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Jeannot said:
Quote:
pride355 said:
Quote:
sws1 said:
Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

I have driven my friend's F360 Modena once and it was definately harder to drive as fast as a 911 or M3.
The car keeps the driver always in alert mode and when it oversteers, the whole car slides.

You can't predict the car in the corners and it doesn't bild any confidence in the driver.

So what's this whole fuss about mid-engined layout cars

Mid-engined cars handle best, until you reach the limit. They change directions quickest and the whole car moves as one (unlike 911 which can sometimes feel like the front and back are sort of each on their own path). However, once you start to slide, the mid-engined cars are twitchier and spin much faster (like a skater bringing her arms in - mass in the center). Here a 911 really shines - lots of fun when you start to slide - easier to steer with the throttle...

How does a mid-engine car change directions easier than the 911? I understand that a particular car that happens to be mid-engine may but all other things aside, I think the placement closest to the rear diff would be best for quick turning.

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Dec 11, 2006 6:52:20 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: GA997S

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
GA997S said:
How does a mid-engine car change directions easier than the 911? ...

Lower polar moment.

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Dec 11, 2006 6:57:08 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Trundle_GT3

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
Trundle997S said:
Remember that the accelerator pedal is a rehostat, not an on/off switch.

So true. I figure that 90% of drivers use the throttle as an off-switch. Same for brakes.

Quote:
Want to fully experience the capabilities of the car and have the time of your life?
Make the time, sign-up and attend the Porsche Driving Experience (PDE).

Excellent advice! No one should drive a high-performance sports car without some serious education and experience driving.

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Dec 11, 2006 7:25:50 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: ADias

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
GA997S said:
How does a mid-engine car change directions easier than the 911? ...

Lower polar moment.

on what axis?

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Dec 11, 2006 7:48:44 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: GA997S

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
GA997S said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
GA997S said:
How does a mid-engine car change directions easier than the 911? ...

Lower polar moment.

on what axis?

The yaw axis - the one that matters most when steering. It is centered on the midpoint of the wheelbase. Since 911 has so much of its weight behind rear axle, alot of mass is well aft of this axis - mid-engined cars have most mass concentrated near this axis.

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Dec 11, 2006 8:21:42 PM

CarlosF: Pilot; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 434, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 15, 2006; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

I don't think that P-enthusiasts who write about interiors or wheels colors are poseurs. If you are fond of something like a P-car, it is normal that you like to think, speak, read and write about it. I like to touch the leather of my car, to look at the stitching and to think about the great people who are able to do such a beautiful work. It is not a hazard if the best sports cars had always the most beautiful interiors...that is why y like to write too about the interior options of P-cars. But this would not be enough...

I need the adrenalin shots that fast driving gives me through my hands and my ass. Feeling a 911 on full throttle sliding at the exit of a corner of a racetrack is the best after orgasm... That's why I like to think, speak, read and write about driving a 911 too:
The best quality of the 911 is that, in case of an oversteering situation, it you the proximity of the limit very early. So the 911 would be an easy to drive car if it had not the bad habit, due to the rear engine, to spin if you go off the throttle when it announces you this limit. The more you stiffen the suspension of your 911, the more the limit becomes sharp, the less it twill phone you the proximity of the limit, and the faster it will spin if you go off the throttle. Not going off the throttle is a matter of experience on the track and can be learned quite easily.
The understeering is not a dangerous issue, because you can keep the car in control by slowing it. In steep corners, swing the car lightly in an oversteering tendency at the beginning of the corner and keep it like that with the throttle until the exit of the corner.

Mid-engine cars are generally much more difficult to drive fast on the track (I never drove a Cayman). The Ferrari F355 challenge for example was a fantastic track car, but very difficult to drive. You were suddenly spinning, not knowing why; sure that somebody behind you had hit you. But no, no, Carlos, you were not good enough, had not felt the proximity of the limit and had to pay for the repairing of the crashed car.
The F360 was not a good track car (not stiff enough, like a snake, because of his alu chassis), slightly easier to drive, but still more difficult than a 911. I never drove a F430 (yes I know, the best F-car is always the next one).

As a conclusion of what is my opinion:
a) The 911 is the best car to learn driving on the track
b) If you are a beginner, do not start on the track with a 911 that is very near from a racecar. Try first with a "normal" 911. You will have more fun.
c) Before you go to the track, ask an expert how to prepare your car (tire pressure, race brake oil, ...)
d) Never race without a complete cage.

Carlos

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Dec 11, 2006 9:44:45 PM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
GA997S said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
GA997S said:
How does a mid-engine car change directions easier than the 911? ...

Lower polar moment.

on what axis?

The yaw axis - the one that matters most when steering. It is centered on the midpoint of the wheelbase. Since 911 has so much of its weight behind rear axle, alot of mass is well aft of this axis - mid-engined cars have most mass concentrated near this axis.

If you turn left, for instance, everything in front of the rear axle moves left and only the section aft of the axle moves right. Doesn't this create a vertical axis (dynamic) directly through the diff? (assuming there is no rear traction loss) Isn't yaw introduced only when the rears bread free?

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Dec 11, 2006 10:28:13 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: GA997S

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
GA997S said:If you turn left, for instance, everything in front of the rear axle moves left and only the section aft of the axle moves right. Doesn't this create a vertical axis (dynamic) directly through the diff? (assuming there is no rear traction loss) Isn't yaw introduced only when the rears bread free?

No, I think you're confused here. The axis is not at the rear axle. Think of the axis as the very center of the car - the rear axle is not the axis for turning. It may seem like that to you, but it's not. The axis is half-way between the front and rear axles. The midpoint is the only spot that does not move left or right when turning.

Don't get hung up on the differential as the place where turning occurs. What about FWD or AWD cars - they have differentials in the front axle?

Think of it more like an airplane - yaw is relative to the center...

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Dec 12, 2006 12:46:55 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Assuming no slippage, I think that the center of rotation is aligned with the rear axle in all cars (RWD, FWD, AWD). The rear wheels do not turn and if not slipping, they will trace an arc.

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Dec 12, 2006 12:52:46 AM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: sws1

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
sws1 said:
Quote:
frayed said:
Yeah. . . had to experience the ferrari to get it out of my system. I guess I'm a porsche guy!

Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

Nope it is what you are used to. When I was driving Porsche I had problems with the light front end. The problem was even more acute on rough roads. It would bounce all ever the place especially under acceleration. Talk about lack of control.

Porsche recently built their super race car for track and road use. It is called the CGT. Guess where they put the engine.

Enough said.

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Dec 12, 2006 1:18:15 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
ADias said:
Assuming no slippage, I think that the center of rotation is aligned with the rear axle in all cars (RWD, FWD, AWD).

This would only be the case if you could turn the front wheels at 90*. I can't do that on my car.

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Dec 12, 2006 1:19:18 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
sws1 said:
[...] Am I to understand that handling a Ferrari is harder than the 911? i.e., requires more skill? Please elaborate.

[...] Porsche recently built their super race car for track and road use. It is called the CGT. Guess where they put the engine. Enough said.

Geez, why don't you read the text properly? He just asked which one is the easier car to drive. Considering the sad incidents that are linked to the CGT (and other high-performance mid-engined cars) this hasn't been contradicted yet.

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Dec 12, 2006 2:33:34 AM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: ADias

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Quote:
ADias said:
Assuming no slippage, I think that the center of rotation is aligned with the rear axle in all cars (RWD, FWD, AWD). The rear wheels do not turn and if not slipping, they will trace an arc.

Well to complicate your argument, all 911's since the 993 have passive rear-wheel steering (kinematic toe) and some Japanese cars from the 80's had active 4-wheel steering.

However, I still believe that at higher speeds (beyond parking speeds), a car's yaw axis is best described as one analogous to an airplane, so that the axis is centered between the wheels (left/right and front/rear). The polar moment of yaw should be described relative to this central point.

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Dec 12, 2006 5:45:51 AM

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , United States; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

You guys are getting too hung up on layout and design and not focusing enough on execution. Porsche has had years to fine tune the rear engine 911 and turn it into what it is today; a predictable engaging communicative and intensely desirable sports car. It is also an engineering feat to overcome what is fundamentally an unstable and inferior design.

I've a fair bit of track experience, front engine, rear engine and mid engine layouts. Certainly mid engine cars are superior from a *design* perspective, but that's only part of the story. The newest 911s are incredibly well engineered and are absolutely stunning to drive.

My Ferrari is a badass car, but it is twitchy. Much more so than any 911 I've owned including my 996 GT3. When the rear end goes, it goes in a flash. In contrast, the GT3 was very tractable and you could carry pretty amazing slip angles on track. My 997S has this trait as well, but even more stable and predictable. The 997S in particular begged to be driven hard and brought to the edge. The ferrari is finnicky and twitchy and the limit; it is more of a white knuckled driving experience and you always keep things dialed down a notch for fear that it'll get away. It is, however, a more passionate car and very intense.

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Dec 12, 2006 6:48:44 AM

GA997S: Veteran; Loc: Athens, Georgia, USA; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

Grant, I guess this is something you'll have to think about for a while to understand it. Maybe go to an engineer or physics professor and let them illustrate it.

When the car is thrown into a curve, the axis may briefly move forward a bit due to the give and movement in the suspension and tires but it's nowhere near half-way between the front & rear tires...I'd say a foot max and that's a stretch.

"...some Japanese cars from the 80's had active 4-wheel steering." Yes. That could move it forward if the wheels turned in opposite directions but at high speeds it would be a deathtrap.

"...a car's yaw axis is best described as one analogous to an airplane, so that the axis is centered between the wheels." Only if the car is sliding across the pavement.

"This would only be the case if you could turn the front wheels at 90*. I can't do that on my car."

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Dec 12, 2006 9:36:19 AM

sws1: Junior; Loc: USA; Posts: 83, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 2, 2006; Reply to: GA997S

Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

So, let me paraphrase what I've read. What makes the 911 great (relative to other cars) is not so much the fastest line that the car can take through the corners, but rather the manner in which a driver can take that line. A car which can take an exceptionally fast line, but a) doesn't communicate well, or b) has such a small margin for error that you risk a crash achieving that line, is less desirable.

SO, depending on the driver, their background, and their skill, a great handling car is subjective. Michael Schumacher would prefer the knife-edge, high speed characteristics of the Ferrari. Above average drivers who like a communicative car, that also supports high speed (albeit lower), like the 911. A lesser skilled driver may immediately be drawn to an M3 which can take a very fast line with little effort (and with less driver feedback).

Guess it's not an absolute measure, but rather like comparing a good beer, a good wine, and a good bottle of scotch. A good beer will not be a satisfying with someone with a palette seasoned enough to enjoy a nice bottle of wine.

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BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	117387	303
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AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75031	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53593	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	24966	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21164	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19483	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16579	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	13674	225
Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11244	55

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