Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    I would rather hit a mid-bend bump in an autobahn sweeper at 250 kph in an M3 than a 911. Although almost any 911 is a more engaging and faster track car than an M3, the intrepid beemer does everything well. The e46 M3 is the most balanced all-round sports car of our time.

    My choice: An M3 daily driver/family car and a Manthey-tweaked 997 GT3 fun/track car.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    I would rather hit a mid-bend bump in an autobahn sweeper at 250 kph in an M3 than a 911. Although almost any 911 is a more engaging and faster track car than an M3, the intrepid beemer does everything well. The e46 M3 is the most balanced all-round sports car of our time.

    My choice: An M3 daily driver/family car and a Manthey-tweaked 997 GT3 fun/track car.



    I would have to agree with you. My E46 M3 is so balanced and forgiving that it let me develop bad habits that I'm having to overcome in my 911TT.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    GA997S said:




    Geez, I give up on you...

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    GA997S said:
    Grant, I guess this is something you'll have to think about for a while to understand it. Maybe go to an engineer or physics professor and let them illustrate it.


    Well, If I were to accept your argument that the rear axle is the center of the yaw axis, the result would be the same.

    Mid-engined cars have more mass centered near the rear axle (engine very close to this axis and gearbox also very close - they straddle this axis). Rear-engined car has more mass farther from the rear axle (engine well behind it and gearbox slightly behind it)...

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    You guys are getting too hung up on layout and design and not focusing enough on execution. Porsche has had years to fine tune the rear engine 911 and turn it into what it is today; a predictable engaging communicative and intensely desirable sports car. It is also an engineering feat to overcome what is fundamentally an unstable and inferior design.

    I've a fair bit of track experience, front engine, rear engine and mid engine layouts. Certainly mid engine cars are superior from a *design* perspective, but that's only part of the story. The newest 911s are incredibly well engineered and are absolutely stunning to drive.

    My Ferrari is a badass car, but it is twitchy. Much more so than any 911 I've owned including my 996 GT3. When the rear end goes, it goes in a flash. In contrast, the GT3 was very tractable and you could carry pretty amazing slip angles on track. My 997S has this trait as well, but even more stable and predictable. The 997S in particular begged to be driven hard and brought to the edge. The ferrari is finnicky and twitchy and the limit; it is more of a white knuckled driving experience and you always keep things dialed down a notch for fear that it'll get away. It is, however, a more passionate car and very intense.



    Have you had an opportunity to drive a 430? It is superior to the 360 in so many ways including handling.

    My impression is you have a greater comfort level driving rear engines cars. You probably "cut your teeth" in them. As a result, you prefer them to mid-engine or front engine cars. As I wrote earlier, it all depends on what you are used to.

    Freddie, the problem with the CGT is its power. Injudicious use of the throttle will make driving it a harrowing experience. I learned that after driving it for 10 minutes. Had Porsche equipped it with 550hp and added some stability devices the car would not be a handful and yet still destroy just about anything out there. With 610hp it really is a car for the profeesional driver. Anyone with less experience, will be risking serious injuries

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    [...] you have a greater comfort level driving rear engines cars. You probably "cut your teeth" in them. As a result, you prefer them to mid-engine or front engine cars. [...] the problem with the CGT is its power.



    I am rather inclined to believe that the handling is the part that demands a sophisticated driver. The traction control on that car seems to be superb and contradicts your thoughts. One could debate endlessly about the Carrera GT and its character and capabilities.

    What makes it so difficult to judge Porsche's efforts reg. the 911's handling is the fact, that they are the only company left using this principle on brand new cars. Apart from the Volkswagen T3 bus in SA and the Smart two-seater vehicle there seems to be no other car with a rear-engined concept - the later not really well-known for its superb handling.

    If you consider the handling and characteristics on the Boxster/Cayman model and compare it to any other mid-engined car it becomes apparent how well Porsche executes their chassis.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    the Smart two-seater vehicle there seems to be no other car with a rear-engined concept - the later not really well-known for its superb handling.




    I think the smart handling has nothing to do with where the engine is. I had one for a year, and this thing is freaking scary on the wet.....but that would be the same I am sure with no engine, an engine in the front, a sail on the roof, a electric motor in each wheel or even 2 rugbymen pushing it...

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    nberry said:

    Have you had an opportunity to drive a 430? It is superior to the 360 in so many ways including handling.

    My impression is you have a greater comfort level driving rear engines cars. You probably "cut your teeth" in them. As a result, you prefer them to mid-engine or front engine cars. As I wrote earlier, it all depends on what you are used to.



    Actually, adopting the 911 as 'my car' came through much trial and tribulation. I am a bmw guy, recently moved on to 911s due to bmw's hideous styling and lack of interest in a true sports car. Most of my track time is in an E36 M3.

    I purchased my first 911, a C4S about 2.5 years ago, and since then had a 996 C2 a 996 GT3 and a 997S. I migrated to RWD layout (C4S was terrible on the track), and appreciate the intensity of the GT3 but the additional suspension refinement of the 997.

    I then moved to Ferrari. I think the on the limit handling of the 360 is much more a function of execution rather than design. As you note, the 430 is much more the pussycat at the limit. . . and this supports my point that fundamental design is important, and the midengine layout is technically superior, but the modern 911 is superior in execution to the 360. Looking at the 430, all bets are off, as Ferrari seems to have righted the wrongs of the 360. I view the 360 - 430 jump very similarly to the 996 to 997 jump. Both cars sets of cars share the same basic architecture and design, but the later generation is so obviously superior from a dynamics standpoint that it's hard to believe they have the same DNA.

    The 360 is not a bad car by any stretch, and appeals to those who prioritize the ferrari experience and allure over the better engineered on limit handling traits of the 997 chassis.

    The 430 is an interesting alternative, but quite a pricy one!

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    well after 39 Porsches and 5 Ferraris I can say this much, they are very different cars in every aspect. I have a 430 and a 997S, and this may sound like a crazy comment but I find the 430 much easier to handle than the 997s, but I also realize that if I destroy the 997S it is easy to replace, I'm not getting another brand new 430 that easy. As far as the 360 (I had two) it can be a scary car at the limit and will let go with no warning. When I first added a Feerari to my garage the car was alittle hard to get used to, I had gbeen driving varios version of 911's for years. But in the last 7 years I have more seat time in a Ferrari than in the Porsche and I find their charateritics ntural now. I will always haveboth in my garage at leat until my reflexes go and I can no longer drive them the way they should be. I often hear I am a Porsche guy or I am BMW guy (I like BMWs too had an M roadster, M3, M5), I guess I am just a carguy, and I salute any company that can build a car that I think is fun to drive

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    OneCarrut said:... I guess I am just a carguy, and I salute any company that can build a car that I think is fun to drive



    I fully agree!

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    sws1 said:
    I've now had my C2S for a little over a week and thought I'd throw in some random commentary.

    First off, I love this car. I'm only posting this to get an intelligent discussion going.

    In the past, I've generally driven rear-wheel drive, front engine performance cars (M3, M5). Given the engine in the 911 is in the rear, I was expecting a handling difference, but I don't think I would have thought it would be as noticeable. Let me explain.

    In corners, it is VERY easy to feel the balance of the car change based on how much trottle is provided. It's not subtle IMO. I'm still in the break-in period, and at 3000 RPM, I can feel the front end "lighten" in mid corner with even a little gas. With the cars I came from, you didn't get that much sensation of balance change.

    So, that would lead me to believe right there that to maximize the potential of the 911, one must be a more skilled driver. Correct?

    If I perfect my driving skill, will the 911 handle better a M3? I'm assuming this would be case, otherwise we have a more difficult car to drive that, when perfected, isn't as good.

    Is the analogy between the 911 and front engined cars like the difference between a short surfing board and a long surfing board? A long board is easier to handle, particularly for the beginner, but the short board will allow you do maneuver better.

    Does a race car have similar handling tendencies? What about other high-end cars? Ferraris?

    Again, I'm not antagonizing. I'm truly seeking comments from folks who are good drivers / racers on their reactions.



    Great discussion that you started with your comments.

    After driving my 911S for nearly ten months, I find myself using the throttle increasingly to get through turns, especially if I have some previous familiarity with the tougher ones or I can see the full turn (with tree leaves having fallen, it makes it possible to see around more turns and thus use more throttle to get through). I now feel a lot more comfortable when applying extra power in a turn.

    At least to me, as relatively inexperienced as I am compared to most Rennteamers, I find that the car sticks to the road as if it were on rails. The handling is predictable and, in a word, incredible!!

    Every time I take it out for a brisk drive, I know I made the right decision in getting one.

    Jim

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    The yaw axis - the one that matters most when steering. It is centered on the midpoint of the wheelbase. Since 911 has so much of its weight behind rear axle, alot of mass is well aft of this axis - mid-engined cars have most mass concentrated near this axis.



    That is my understanding as well, and what I have read in books like Vic Elford's Porsche High Performance Driving.

    In fact the "pivot point" in the 911 is not only not more rearward, but rather on the front of the car over the front axle, the reason being that the rear placement of the engine cause a "pendulum effect", hence the tendency to oversteer of the 911. While a mid-engine car has the enigne/tranny "mass" very close to its pivot point located in the middle of the car, hence a lower polar moment of inertia. Its like a dumbell with the weights at the ends of the bar, and another with the weights closer to the center of the bar, which is easier to spin? therefore the mid-engine car turns over its yaw axis with less effort making it more nervous handling and easier to spin, but for skilled drivers and racecars it yields easier turn in and aglility in changes of direction. Whereas with the 911 you have to do the tipical "slow in and fast out".

    For me the handling and steering of the 911, is not only very fast around corners, but more importantly it is extremely rewarding and unique compared to any other setup.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    It's funny, I definitely don't subscribe to the 'newer is always better' line of thinking. But with modern 911s and the 360/430 ferraris, the newest iteration of each is a notably better machine than what it replaced.

    If I could swing both the new GT3 and an F430, I would in a heartbeat!

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    The yaw axis - the one that matters most when steering. It is centered on the midpoint of the wheelbase. Since 911 has so much of its weight behind rear axle, alot of mass is well aft of this axis - mid-engined cars have most mass concentrated near this axis.



    That is my understanding as well, and what I have read in books like Vic Elford's Porsche High Performance Driving.

    In fact the "pivot point" in the 911 is not only not more rearward, but rather on the front of the car over the front axle, the reason being that the rear placement of the engine cause a "pendulum effect", hence the tendency to oversteer of the 911. While a mid-engine car has the enigne/tranny "mass" very close to its pivot point located in the middle of the car, hence a lower polar moment of inertia. Its like a dumbell with the weights at the ends of the bar, and another with the weights closer to the center of the bar, which is easier to spin? therefore the mid-engine car turns over its yaw axis with less effort making it more nervous handling and easier to spin, but for skilled drivers and racecars it yields easier turn in and aglility in changes of direction.



    o.k. you got me. I now know yall are messin with me. You can't possibly believe that...Can you Carlos?

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    ahh... no... of course not, just like to waste time typing senseless lines

    No really, I gave you a reference that you can look up and read on about it if you like, and if you don't know who Vic Elford is, you can check him out in google.

    I think I may have introduced some confusion with introducing the pivot point concept that is more related to rotation in the limits of driving with tire slippage, control, and negotiating the turn when racing.

    But its is very easy if we keep it very simple; the closer the mass of the car is to the center b/w the four tires of the car, the lower angular moment of inertia is, and therefore the less effort is needed to rotate the car through its tires. Mid-egine =lower polar moment, rear and front engined = higher polar moment.

    Imagine a ball of pizza dough, you flaten the dough into a small disc and start to spin it an flaten in succesively to make flater and larger in diameter for the pizza, as it grows in diameter while you spin it, it gets harder to spin because its mass is farther away from its axis, i.e. higher angular moemnt of inertia.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ahh... no... of course not, just like to waste time typing senseless lines

    No really, I gave you a reference that you can look up and read on about it if you like, and if you don't know who Vic Elford is, you can check him out in google.

    I think I may have introduced some confusion with introducing the pivot point concept that is more related to rotation in the limits of driving with tire slippage, control, and negotiating the turn when racing.

    But its is very easy if we keep it very simple; the closer the mass of the car is to the center b/w the four tires of the car, the lower angular moment of inertia is, and therefore the less effort is needed to rotate the car through its tires. Mid-egine =lower polar moment, rear and front engined = higher polar moment.

    Imagine a ball of pizza dough, you flaten the dough into a small disc and start to spin it an flaten in succesively to make flater and larger in diameter for the pizza, as it grows in diameter while you spin it, it gets harder to spin because its mass is farther away from its axis, i.e. higher angular moemnt of inertia.



    ok. I just got a ball of pizza dough and tried that.

    I know the closer the mass is to the axis of rotation, the lower the polar moment. I'm well educated on this principle. The only thing we disagree on is that the axis changes during driving maneuvers. I believe the axis is between the front tires (for all cars) during rear-tire lateral slip. I believe the axis is straight up through the rear diff during normal driving. Throwing the car into a turn moves the axis toward the front but only all the way up to the front tires if the rear slips. The axis changes location because of body and tire flex. The initial turn-in or direction change is easier when the engine mass is close to the rear diff. If the 911's engine is farther away than a mid engine car then ok...whatever. The fact is, the longer the moment arm, the easier it is to induce or resist rotation. Induced rotation about the "normal" rear axis by turning the front tires and resisted potential rotation about the front axis with the fat rear tire's traction.

    I'm trying to defend my dream car here.

    btw...I had pizza for supper. and thanks for the Vic Elford ref...I'll check it out.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Jim48 said:
    Quote:
    sws1 said:
    I've now had my C2S for a little over a week and thought I'd throw in some random commentary.

    First off, I love this car. I'm only posting this to get an intelligent discussion going.

    In the past, I've generally driven rear-wheel drive, front engine performance cars (M3, M5). Given the engine in the 911 is in the rear, I was expecting a handling difference, but I don't think I would have thought it would be as noticeable. Let me explain.

    In corners, it is VERY easy to feel the balance of the car change based on how much trottle is provided. It's not subtle IMO. I'm still in the break-in period, and at 3000 RPM, I can feel the front end "lighten" in mid corner with even a little gas. With the cars I came from, you didn't get that much sensation of balance change.

    So, that would lead me to believe right there that to maximize the potential of the 911, one must be a more skilled driver. Correct?

    If I perfect my driving skill, will the 911 handle better a M3? I'm assuming this would be case, otherwise we have a more difficult car to drive that, when perfected, isn't as good.

    Is the analogy between the 911 and front engined cars like the difference between a short surfing board and a long surfing board? A long board is easier to handle, particularly for the beginner, but the short board will allow you do maneuver better.

    Does a race car have similar handling tendencies? What about other high-end cars? Ferraris?

    Again, I'm not antagonizing. I'm truly seeking comments from folks who are good drivers / racers on their reactions.



    Great discussion that you started with your comments.

    After driving my 911S for nearly ten months, I find myself using the throttle increasingly to get through turns, especially if I have some previous familiarity with the tougher ones or I can see the full turn (with tree leaves having fallen, it makes it possible to see around more turns and thus use more throttle to get through). I now feel a lot more comfortable when applying extra power in a turn.

    At least to me, as relatively inexperienced as I am compared to most Rennteamers, I find that the car sticks to the road as if it were on rails. The handling is predictable and, in a word, incredible!!

    Every time I take it out for a brisk drive, I know I made the right decision in getting one.

    Jim



    I agree. Great discussion. I also consider myself a novice having had my 997S since May. I've been on a track day with instructors and it is amazing to know what your car is capable of.

    For myself, I consider the 911 so great because of the feedback that it offers and the interaction between the driver and the car. I agree with other posts saying that mid and front engine cars are easier to drive for beginners. I've driven the M3 and Cayman S many times and it just feels less engaging than the 911. What I mean is that I have to concentrate more on "balancing" the 911 when going into corners more so than a front or mid engined car. When I get it right, the satisfaction I get is incredible. When I get it wrong, I get under/oversteer and I have only myself to blame for not "listening" to what the car had to say to me. That's what makes the 911 so alluring to me. There is a constant feedback telling the driver what the car is doing. That way, the driver can learn from what the car is doing and the road conditions so that he can take the corner better next time.

    For me, that's what makes the 911 so great. Everytime I pick up the keys, my heart beats just a little faster because I know what I'm in for. Just like the Porsche ad says, "I'll be begging for more homework."

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Guys... I stand for what I wrote. If no slippage, the car rotates around a vertical axis (sitting inside the curve on the center of rotation) which forms a plane with the horizontal rear axle. Both rotated front wheels' axis point inwards to the point where the vertical axis of rotation intersects the rear axle (the outer wheel always rotates more). This is straight geometry for all cars (not rear wheel steering) without slippage. Now... dynamically the assymetric distribution of mass produces what Carlos correctly described as the pendulum effect. THAT happens when slippage starts and not until then. In normal driving conditions (without slippage) the proverbial car on rails, no pendulum effect takes place.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    the Smart two-seater vehicle there seems to be no other car with a rear-engined concept - the later not really well-known for its superb handling.




    I think the smart handling has nothing to do with where the engine is. I had one for a year, and this thing is freaking scary on the wet.....but that would be the same I am sure with no engine, an engine in the front, a sail on the roof, a electric motor in each wheel or even 2 rugbymen pushing it...


    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Now... dynamically the assymetric distribution of mass produces what Carlos correctly described as the pendulum effect. THAT happens when slippage starts and not until then.


    That might be true if there was no compliance in the suspension at all, but we all know that if you wiggle the steering wheel at speed, the body of the car moves around on the rubber bushings, the flexing of the tires' sidewalls, and shock absorbers and can feel somewhat loose (almost like fishtailing) even if there is no slippage between the tires and road. This yaw effect is present in everything except a skateboard or child's wagon (no suspension and no compliance in the tires). The polar moment makes itself felt (on an axis ahead of the rear axle), even without skidding the tires...

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    Gnil said:
    Quote:
    Jeannot said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    the Smart two-seater vehicle there seems to be no other car with a rear-engined concept - the later not really well-known for its superb handling.




    I think the smart handling has nothing to do with where the engine is. I had one for a year, and this thing is freaking scary on the wet.....but that would be the same I am sure with no engine, an engine in the front, a sail on the roof, a electric motor in each wheel or even 2 rugbymen pushing it...





    And a playmate pushing that "thing" ?
    Carlos

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    You guys gotta get a grip. Here's my very technical, PhD explaination:

    There's a heavy azz anchor behind the rear wheels. Only the 911 has this layout in all of sportscardom. Like a tomahawk, the heavy part will always want to be in the front. However, PAG has done a marvelous job engineering such a fundamentally flawed car into one of the most engaging (and reasonably stable and tractable) sports cars ever.

    Now, go out and drive!!!

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    frayed said:
    You guys gotta get a grip. Here's my very technical, PhD explaination:

    There's a heavy azz anchor behind the rear wheels. Only the 911 has this layout in all of sportscardom. Like a tomahawk, the heavy part will always want to be in the front. However, PAG has done a marvelous job engineering such a fundamentally flawed car into one of the most engaging (and reasonably stable and tractable) sports cars ever.

    Now, go out and drive!!!



    LOL!!!!!

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Guys... I stand for what I wrote. If no slippage, the car rotates around a vertical axis (sitting inside the curve on the center of rotation) which forms a plane with the horizontal rear axle. Both rotated front wheels' axis point inwards to the point where the vertical axis of rotation intersects the rear axle (the outer wheel always rotates more). This is straight geometry for all cars (not rear wheel steering) without slippage. Now... dynamically the assymetric distribution of mass produces what Carlos correctly described as the pendulum effect. THAT happens when slippage starts and not until then. In normal driving conditions (without slippage) the proverbial car on rails, no pendulum effect takes place.



    What happens when the titchepalio loses compatibility with the fibbly-fobbly?

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    Quote:
    John H said:
    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Guys... I stand for what I wrote. If no slippage, the car rotates around a vertical axis (sitting inside the curve on the center of rotation) which forms a plane with the horizontal rear axle. Both rotated front wheels' axis point inwards to the point where the vertical axis of rotation intersects the rear axle (the outer wheel always rotates more). This is straight geometry for all cars (not rear wheel steering) without slippage. Now... dynamically the assymetric distribution of mass produces what Carlos correctly described as the pendulum effect. THAT happens when slippage starts and not until then. In normal driving conditions (without slippage) the proverbial car on rails, no pendulum effect takes place.



    What happens when the titchepalio loses compatibility with the fibbly-fobbly?



    Then it's time to change your tires and your underpants.

    Re: Let's talk handling - Why is the 911 so great?

    This discussion is making me dizzy. Here is what Elford had to say about pivot points.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    781359 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    442695 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    263406 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    261762 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85883 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5943 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    881512 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    819209 3868
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    392371 1454
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    392248 1526
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    375287 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    369428 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289987 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261899 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240765 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    231275 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221643 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169911 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141667 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    118197 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    109373 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84626 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75398 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    54245 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25483 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21235 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19596 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16647 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13920 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11301 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.