Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen? - Page1

Dec 1, 2006 9:32:11 PM

ESu: Newbie; Loc: Helsinki, Finland; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 2, 2006

To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Being lucky enought to get rid of our family drive 05/2005 MB E* 350 T 4Matic, I've had plans to be "Finnish RC" and invest on Cayenne Turbo with Powerkit. Since I have pretty much all of my money tied up to the forthcoming 997TT (Werksabholung am 15.3.2007!), I have been browsing thru mobile.de for a MY 2005 Cayenne Turbo with E81.

* Electronically disabled

At the moment I have one candidate with Werkswagen status - and some 20 t Euro cheaper price tag!

Could german members of the board enlighten me about this Werkswagen philosophie? Ist this better or worse compared to a Vorfuhrwagen with some 100+ prior unexperienced drivers.

Danke im voraus!

-ESu

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Dec 4, 2006 7:33:48 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: ESu

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Quote:
ESu said:
Being lucky enought to get rid of our family drive 05/2005 MB E* 350 T 4Matic, I've had plans to be "Finnish RC" and invest on Cayenne Turbo with Powerkit. Since I have pretty much all of my money tied up to the forthcoming 997TT (Werksabholung am 15.3.2007!), I have been browsing thru mobile.de for a MY 2005 Cayenne Turbo with E81.

* Electronically disabled

At the moment I have one candidate with Werkswagen status - and some 20 t Euro cheaper price tag!

Could german members of the board enlighten me about this Werkswagen philosophie? Ist this better or worse compared to a Vorfuhrwagen with some 100+ prior unexperienced drivers.

Danke im voraus!

-ESu

"Werkswagen" are usually cars owned by the Porsche company itself. This is usually a good thing because if you're lucky, only one or two employees were driving this specific car. On the other hand, some "Werkswagen" were used for customer test drives (same as "Vorführwagen") or as temporary loaners, so the 100+ figure could be valid for those too. Considering the "exclusivity factor" of the Cayenne Turbo powerkit, I doubt however that Porsche handed out a Cayenne Turbo powerkit to each and every "ordinary" customer.

Btw: are you sure you want to get a used Cayenne Turbo Powerkit now, a couple of months before the facelift makes it to the dealers? You could get a decent new Cayenne S for the same money, you should at least wait until the specs and pictures are official. The Cayenne Turbo Powerkit is a great car and fun to drive but it eats fuel like nothing, 24-28 litres/100 km are pretty common, even more.

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Dec 4, 2006 5:37:19 PM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Hi RC,

do you think the CayenneS is really consuming this much less? I have a friend with such a car and he reports an average consumption from 22-25 ltr/100km.

L@rs

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Dec 4, 2006 5:48:07 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: Lars997

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Hi Lars,

Your friend's right food must be very heavy ..... and/or he is only doing city driving ....

I do around 15-17 l/100km on average

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Dec 4, 2006 6:21:05 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Lars997

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Quote:
Lars996 said:
Hi RC,

do you think the CayenneS is really consuming this much less? I have a friend with such a car and he reports an average consumption from 22-25 ltr/100km.

[Email]L@rs[/Email]

I drove a Cayenne S for a week, it "ate" around 17-19 l/100 km in the city compared to 20-21 in the Cayenne Turbo and almost 23 litres/100 km on the Autobahn (top speed) compared to an average of aprox. 28-29 l/100 km (speed range aprox. 240-260 kph). At top speed (speedo 286 or 287 kph, don't remember anymore), the Cayenne Turbo Powerkit eats up to 39 l/100 km. OUCH.

For comparison: I testdrove a BMW X3 3.0sd lately, a Diesel with a bi-turbo engine and 286 HP. 0-100 in 6.6 seconds with automatic tranny (no acceleration from standstill lag, very impressive for a Diesel). Fuel consumption during my pretty "hefty" testdrive incl. city and Autobahn: 12-15 l/100. DIESEL. This is why I really don't understand why Porsche doesn't take a jump into cold water and offers a "monster" Diesel engine with over 400 HP. Audi apparently understood what customers want...the 500 HP V12 Diesel will be a blast and I'm honestly thinking of getting one if the price is right (maybe slightly used to save 15000 Euro or so.

).

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Dec 5, 2006 10:43:02 AM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

To develop a "monster" diesel engine is a very nice idea however:

- It is basically more costly to develop an engine from scratch than a car .... In the Panamera development costs (around Euro 1.0bn), a significant amount of money is dedicated to the engines which are not similar to the ones on the Cayenne (engines are too high)

- With very stringent emmission rules (Euro V, ...), it is not 100% sure diesel engines will pass them (at an acceptable cost) especially for NOx. It is therefore possible to see in the future diesel sales weakening in Europe.

- A diesel engine would only fit the Cayenne needs

- Diesel is a European phenomenon (50% of sales and more on high-end cars). North America around 3.0% of sales, Japan 0.0%, China 0.0%, .... Let's assume a diesel take-up rate of 70% in Europe on the Cayenne, this would lead to 13,000 x 70% or 9,100 units. If we add some marginal sales in other markets, they may reach 10,000 units per year .... not enough to make it economically viable

- If they decide to "fine tune" an Audi or VW engine, people will say it is not a real Porsche (Cayenne V6) .....

Bottom line I don't think it makes ECONOMICAL sense to make a diesel engine for Porsche. However, the Cayenne II will be available with an hybrid engine jointly developped with Audi and Volkswagen.

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Dec 5, 2006 12:24:03 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: EricAlain

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Quote:
EricAlain said:
[...] they may reach 10,000 units per year .... not enough to make it economically viable
[...] However, the Cayenne II will be available with an hybrid engine jointly developped with Audi and Volkswagen.

Nice explanation, Eric. That sums it up pretty well. Diesel engines have a bad reputation in Asia due to their character on trucks and older diesel cars. In simple words, it is not seen as a clean engine type.

The hybrid model fits much better into the Porsche philosophy than a diesel version, although it will be accompanied by other options to improve gas mileage, e.g. lower weight, smaller front facia.

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Dec 5, 2006 4:30:29 PM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

@Eric,

I basicly agree on your thoughts.

Just want to add, the Diesel could also fit into the Panamera. A sport limousine with a Diesel works well - see the Mercedes CLS, which is the most sold version in Europe

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Dec 5, 2006 5:03:40 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: ESu

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

I'd never buy a "Werkswagen" or a demonstration car because they might not be broken in properly and driven in a devil-may-care style by Journos etc.

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Dec 5, 2006 5:08:16 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: Lars997

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Hi Lars,

You're right the Panamera could be proposed with a diesel engine.

Sales target for the Panamera is 20,000 units per annum which is very conservative... If we assume 30,000 units, 35% in Europe and a take-up rate of 70% this is an additional 7,500 units..... not so bad.

I don't think the engine could be very similar to the one on a Cayenne (architecture, size, weight are different) so I'm not sure it is an economically viable option.

In Europe for luxury cars, diesel penetration is close to 80% !!!! This is the case for the 5 and 7 Series but also for the E and S Class. This is why the best selling CLS is powered by a diesel engine.

As far as the Touareg and Q7 are concerned, over 80% of European sales are diesel... In France 90% of X5 and X3 sales are diesel ...

I suspect, Porsche will try to avoid the diesel as long as possible and then jump on fuel cells for example ...

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Dec 5, 2006 7:44:38 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Quote:
zzboba said:
I'd never buy a "Werkswagen" or a demonstration car because they might not be broken in properly and driven in a devil-may-care style by Journos etc.

True. I got a replacement demo car for a week a few years ago and after that my only thought was: "God help whoever buys this car."

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Dec 6, 2006 8:14:32 AM

Lars997: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: South , Germany; Posts: 9448, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Hi Eric,

I guess the V6 and V8s out of the Cayenne we will see in a very similar form in the front-loaded Panamera. For me one reason why the four door will make so much sence for Porsche. Further, the new engine plant in Zuffenhausen will become effective once a second frame for the big blocks is available.

I doubt that we will ever see one of the Cayenne engines in a 911. I think the possibility to see a V10 in one of the next 911 generation is much higher.

Anyway - I fully agree, as long as the Porsche company is so effective as now and business continues in a high margin area we will suffer to see a Diesel running from a plant in Zuffenhausen.

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Dec 8, 2006 8:25:42 PM

ESu: Newbie; Loc: Helsinki, Finland; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 2, 2006; Reply to: Lars997

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Thanks buddies!

Opted not to go with Werkswagen and chose a 14 tkm driven 11/05 Cayenne Turbo.

RC: I guess that even with Cayenne Turbo you'd be driving in Autobahn to reach consumption you mentioned? Up here in Finland motorways are limited to 120 km/h (100 km/h during winter months) so I don't see consumption as a show stopper here. Back when we had a X5 4.6iS I did notice a remarkable difference in consumption: 140 km/h yielded some 15 l/100 and dropping to 130 km/h consumption went down to 14 l/100.

Anyway - isn't one part of the Turbo's attraction that it uses fuel when needed (& delivers uncompromized power) and other(consumption)wise acts as a normal engine?

Thanks for your numerous opinions - Rennteam rules!

-ESu

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Dec 8, 2006 10:13:27 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: ESu

Re: To Werkswagen or not to Werkswagen?

Quote:
ESu said:
Thanks buddies!

Opted not to go with Werkswagen and chose a 14 tkm driven 11/05 Cayenne Turbo.

RC: I guess that even with Cayenne Turbo you'd be driving in Autobahn to reach consumption you mentioned? Up here in Finland motorways are limited to 120 km/h (100 km/h during winter months) so I don't see consumption as a show stopper here. Back when we had a X5 4.6iS I did notice a remarkable difference in consumption: 140 km/h yielded some 15 l/100 and dropping to 130 km/h consumption went down to 14 l/100.

Anyway - isn't one part of the Turbo's attraction that it uses fuel when needed (& delivers uncompromized power) and other(consumption)wise acts as a normal engine?

Thanks for your numerous opinions - Rennteam rules!

-ESu

In theory this is true. However, you already have a 4.5 litre V8 as a starting point, so I don't see much difference in consumption being possible

.

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