Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all? - Page1

Nov 24, 2006 12:14:27 AM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006

Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

I own a 2006 X51 Carrera S with the factory Aerokit which I thought to be the car to own - for me, at least. Reading numerous articles at the PCA website, magazines, etc. has created the impression that the motor on the Carrera based cars is just some compromised, lower quality piece of junk that true enthusiasts should shun. I am baffled as I've owned some Porsche or another for over 20 years and never had these feelings or thoughts about any of them until now. Why did the factory make completely different engines for the Carreras and for the GT3 and Turbo variants? Why couldn't they just put the GT1 based engine on the Carreras and make a higher powered version for the special cars like the GT3, GT2 and Turbos? My 1984 Carrera had a dry sumped engine that had nothing inherently different from the 3.2 Club Sport. Neither did the 964 and 993 cars had any great differences from the RS variants of such models. Why did this happen now? I mean, you read on the spec sheet about an "integrated dry sump" engine only to find out it is Porschespeak for wet sump and also to find out they put an inferior motor in the car. I have a very fast car, of course, and don't necessarily fancy owning a GT3. I wanted a "softer" street car as compared to a more focused track-oriented car but not at the expense of having a car that has a mass produced, expendable engine with no relation to Motorsports whatsoever!

I used to be proud of my Carreras being cars with racing pedigree and still have a 1985 3.2 that is being set up for track events as we speak. Yes, some suspension upgrades have to be done as well as getting some good brake pads for it, but nothing is needed for its dry sump motor if I want to use racing tires or lower the car. This is being written to encourage some discussion amongst us, not as bashing, and to exchange impressions and maybe get some feedback that might settle my opinions towards this issues (I can be completely wrong about them) and allow me to see the car from a different and satisfactory point of view. I'd really hate to sell it and lose money while doing so, in order to buy a real motorsport pedigreed Porsche.

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Nov 24, 2006 1:13:09 AM

JMShrink: Pilot; Loc: California; Posts: 395, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 12, 2005; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

It's just Porsche marketing..

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Nov 24, 2006 1:15:07 AM

catdog: Junior; Loc: United States; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 24, 2005; Reply to: JMShrink

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Do the carrera and carrera s have some redeeming feature re. reliability or mileage or lower maintenance requirements? It would be nice to hear the real reason behind not choosing the GT-1 engine

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Nov 24, 2006 2:27:18 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: catdog

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
catdog said:
Do the carrera and carrera s have some redeeming feature re. reliability or mileage or lower maintenance requirements? It would be nice to hear the real reason behind not choosing the GT-1 engine

The M96 and M97 (Carrera and Carrera S engines) are certainly not more reliable than the GT1 derived engine in the GT3 and Turbo. In fact, they have been well known to suffer from rear main seal leaks, though the incidence appears to be reduced on the 997 variants.

When porsche went to water cooling, they developed 2 engines for the Boxster. Larger bore variants with Variocam were designed for the 911. This engine is similar to the GT1 derived engine, but not the same. It is cheaper to produce, and mass produced. This was one among many changes that Porsche made in the late 90's that helped to make it such a profitable car manufacturer.

They are great engines, and they are based on the race bred GT1 derived engine, but they are different.

I'm also bothered by this, but what can you do? Basically, they are still fantastic cars, and for what you sem to be looking for, the car you have seems downright perfect.

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Nov 24, 2006 3:17:48 AM

Over the Hill: Pilot; Loc: Bellevue, Washington, USA; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2006; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

I'm also bothered by this, but what can you do? Basically, they are still fantastic cars, and for what you sem to be looking for, the car you have seems downright perfect.

A Porsche is a Porsche is a Porsche! Like any mechanical device they have their faults and foibles, but on balance they are one fine machine to be coveted.

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Nov 24, 2006 10:11:13 AM

easy_rider911: Rennteam VIP; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 22190, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 8, 2004; Reply to: Over the Hill

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

One word sums it up: ....cost. GT1 based engines are more expensive to produce than the M96 and M97 in the 996 and 997.

But, honestly, does this matter? I think you shouldn't let this bother you. It's an absolutely superb car.

Just don't think so hard...drive it hard, see how it makes you feel...if you aren't smiling from ear to ear THEN you know this car isn't for you. Otherwise, just enjoy the 'high' it makes you feel.

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Nov 24, 2006 1:09:28 PM

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , United Kingdom; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 5, 2005; Reply to: easy_rider911

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Perhaps it is cost of manufacture versus increased profit margins for Por$che?

When I enquired with Porsche UK about engine problems on the 996 series, they quoted GBP Pounds10k to replace a wet sump engine and Pounds40k to replace a dry sump Turbo/GT engine.

If you want to track your beloved "integrated sump" Porsche, but face the risk of engine problems if you do, then I think there is a problem - we are being short-changed by the new Porsche...

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Nov 24, 2006 5:30:51 PM

Ian C: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 75, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 20, 2006; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

IMHO the profit margin on a GT3 is good, but the profit margin on a Carrera/S is BIG. When you look at the specification of the GT3 with all its special bits and pieces it looks a bit of a bargain compared with the regular car.

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Nov 24, 2006 6:17:06 PM

Marwan Arakji: Senior; Loc: Lebanon , Lebanon; Posts: 572, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 11, 2006; Reply to: Ian C

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

what is this thread all about!!!

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Nov 24, 2006 11:39:18 PM

MrBonus: Junior; Loc: Delaware; Posts: 97, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 4, 2004; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
boytronic said:
Perhaps it is cost of manufacture versus increased profit margins for Por$che?

When I enquired with Porsche UK about engine problems on the 996 series, they quoted GBP Pounds10k to replace a wet sump engine and Pounds40k to replace a dry sump Turbo/GT engine.

If you want to track your beloved "integrated sump" Porsche, but face the risk of engine problems if you do, then I think there is a problem - we are being short-changed by the new Porsche...

Most of these wet-sump track failures seem to be Internet fairy tails written by salty keyboard jockeys who want to propogate their theories about the oiling system's inability to handle high lateral loads. Nobody seems to be able to produce a reliable anecdote, just stories about a "friend's friend."

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Nov 25, 2006 6:59:12 PM

chili: Pilot; Loc: Bay Area - East Bay; Posts: 354, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2005; Reply to: MrBonus

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

I think they should start off the lineup with a GT3. Then the GT3 RS, Turbo then GT2. The targa and convertible are options on the turbo.

Hey Posche management do you need a new marketing guy? I'm cheap. Pay me in kind. Any Porsche car will do...

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Nov 26, 2006 6:10:48 AM

DavidSF: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 525, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 7, 2003; Reply to: JMShrink

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
JMShrink said:
It's just Porsche marketing..

And it's working brilliantly!

David

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Nov 26, 2006 10:39:53 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: DavidSF

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

"The times they are a changing."

"Don't worry..., Be happy!"

"You cain't always git whachu wont... , but chu git wachu neeeeed..., Ohhhh yeah!"

Just enjoy the ride while you can.

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Nov 26, 2006 1:26:13 PM

cibergypsy: Pilot; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 366, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 21, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

I paid the full $123k in cash and think that, when the time comes for the warranty to expire, I will lose a considerable amount of that money. Who knows, maybe 50% or more???
So, what do you guys think? Would it be best to sell the car, buy a low mileage 993 Turbo or even a 1989 930 with low mileage also, keep the money left over and have then a car that won't depreciate much anymore and would be less of a headache and expense to maintain in the long run?
While I may not incur in out of pocket expenses for repairs covered under warranty, the money lost in depreciation will most likely be much more than the money lost on maintenance on a 993 Turbo or a 1989 930. I've always fancied a 1989 930 for its 5 speed transmission and because it is the last year of the original Turbo. Let me know your opinion, fellows.

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Nov 26, 2006 4:23:36 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: cibergypsy

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

If you paid 123K for it... then you will surely lose more than 50% by the time the warranty expires.

Honestly, long-time Porschephiles have been feeling the Porsche Marketing Grinch for awhile now. You're better off paying a bit more for a GT3 if you're worried about depreciation. But even that won't be immune to the glut of cars Porsche is dropping into the marketplace. Porsche no longer is an exclusive brand.

Cars are poor investments (unless it's a Ferrari). If you don't want to worry about depreciation as much then you should buy a low-mileage used car. Otherwise think of the depreciation as a amusement 'tax'.

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Nov 27, 2006 9:17:38 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

The 997 and 997S exists because it's satisfying age-old wishes of a lot of people who have wanted a "Porsche 911." Porsche could never build enough of these the old way (maybe 65 a day years ago on the BEST days). Demand is so high that they had to work some things out,--like building a motor that is adequate to the job, but doesn't need to go perform on the track every weekend. I personally don't miss the separate 'dry sump' system because I'm not missing all the oil leaks, and the 14 quart oil changes. I'm still SHOCKED that I can park my 911 in the garage and I never see a single spot of oil beneath it. This is absolutely shocking to me, an age-old 911 owner. While I drive the snot out of this car I certainly have never felt that I have pushed it to the point that it is ever starving for oil at any time.

We're really lucky that Porsche worked with the Japanese to learn how to build a car. Otherwise Porsche could have very easily gone the way of every other exotic sports car that today has been snatched up by some other company, and offered as a boutique car. (Sort of like with Leica cameras within that mess,--but that's another subject).

dan

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Nov 28, 2006 8:30:46 AM

burbank997: Newbie; Loc: California; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2006; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

So how many quarts of oil does my Cab S hold?

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Nov 28, 2006 6:50:37 PM

SimpleSkin: Co-Pilot; Loc: Ashburn VA, USA , United States; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 1, 2005; Reply to: burbank997

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
burbank997 said:
So how many quarts of oil does my Cab S hold?

Check the manual

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Nov 29, 2006 7:28:11 AM

burbank997: Newbie; Loc: California; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2006; Reply to: SimpleSkin

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Thanks bro. It was a rethorical question.

I thought about this post today, and as I was driving my car around, wondering if I should be yearning for my old oil cooler, and all those precious oil lines, and those 14 quarts of oil (litres)...then I thought that's a bunch of rubbish.

I don't miss that true dry sump a bit. I loved my 993 and it's race bred engine was great (low on power then, and now it seems like a slug), but to think that some of us fret over the loss of the exclusiveness of a non-mass produced...race bred engine you called it? and you said the new one is a piece of junk...non exclusive? mass produced, somewhat like a honda civic engine or something?

What's different about it's manufacture? Do you know? Do you know the amount of bench testing that went into the old, as compared to the new? Do you know whether the integrated sump is actually inferior to the old dry sump, with the leaks, lines, and hundreds of small parts.

I read somewhere in this thread that Porsche couldn't afford to build a motor that was designed to meet the stresses of being raced on the track, and mass produce it in the numbers needed to meet the demand...who writes this?

Your thinking is way off on some strange sentimental..."those were the days", "how I miss them so" trip, and needs a reality check.

The person who wrote this really has no experience in actual motorsports, unless you consider your self a sportsman on your sunday drives...which is fine.

Fact is, cars that are brought to the race track are generally cared for, maintained, serviced and tuned, much better than cars driven on the street. The stresses that wear a motor out are not the repeated trips to red line, and 150 mph on the front straight at the racetrack, but all those trips to grocery store, and into town in traffic.

This new motor was built with the short commings of the old motor in mind, and there is absolutely no question that it is more robust than the old universal 3.6 that was in all models. Fear not. Your thinking about this too much.

Your engine is not the "street" version...made like a postage stamp, whereas the GT3 has the "race", or "exclusive" version. They designed 2 because what's good for a Carerra S, is not perfect for a GT3, there are different requirements in materials, different specs that need to be meet.

The japs have proved that automation in the production of mass produced engines can be better, more reliable, and....yes, more economical. That's what Porsche did in the 90's to increase production, and these new engines are the result. They are most definately more consistent in their production now than they were then. I don't know stats, but from what I can tell...these new engines are nothing to get worked up about.

Maybe you don't have scenes of franz, pushing the engine
stand around, with your beloved race bred engine attached, on it's way to the old testing line, where it's to be run near red line for 3 minutes before passing it through inspection anymore. Maybe that's not so bad. We call this progress.

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Nov 29, 2006 7:41:11 AM

burbank997: Newbie; Loc: California; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 15, 2006; Reply to: burbank997

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

by the way, Turbo/GT engines are also mass produced. All the engines are manufactured with a certain amount of automation..., as much as makes sense financially...although, when building motors, there's only so much computer controlled automation you can use. what is put together with machines, would be put together by hands the same way, but less consistantly. it's nothing to fret over. Automation and mass production are how cars are made. Most of the engine is assembled by hand, but some pre-assemblies are done mechanically, and the motors are all built on an assembly line. Don't go thinking that your GT3 isn't mass produced, or that a turbo engine is made by a bunch of race car mechanics....you might fret if you saw the guys running the pneumatic impactors in a production line actually!!!!

a turbo/GT engine is mass produced as much as the plant managers could possibly manage. That's there job, to produce the car as cheaply as possible, and function as designed, meet all the design specs, with the required durability, anything more than producing what was designed, to spec, is waste.

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Nov 29, 2006 7:25:48 PM

SimpleSkin: Co-Pilot; Loc: Ashburn VA, USA , United States; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 1, 2005; Reply to: burbank997

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

When I was at the factory back in May I went through the egine assembly building. We saw all the various motors being built. Boxster/Cayman built and shipped to Sweden. Turbo/GT3 and Carrera/Carrera S all being built in the same building then tested in the same test chambers. The various motors were being built by different guys on different revolving lines. Sure these motors are different but they are all assembled similarly in the same room. Very cool by the way. Go to Zuffenhausen if you can.

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Nov 30, 2006 2:01:17 AM

ERdoc: Junior; Loc: Fragrant Harbour; Posts: 135, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 1, 2005; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
Dan L said:
We're really lucky that Porsche worked with the Japanese to learn how to build a car. Otherwise Porsche could have very easily gone the way of every other exotic sports car that today has been snatched up by some other company, and offered as a boutique car. (Sort of like with Leica cameras within that mess,--but that's another subject).

dan

As a Leica shooter/collector/dealer, I know very well what you mean.

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Nov 30, 2006 8:26:31 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: ERdoc

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
ERdoc said:

As a Leica shooter/collector/dealer, I know very well what you mean.

Hey, since the digital photography conquest, what's my Leica M6 worth? Pristine condition; bought new in 1992.

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Nov 30, 2006 8:34:16 PM

JuanCarlos: Co-Pilot; Loc: New York, NY; Posts: 167, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 22, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Not really a fan of the Leica / Panasonic Lumix "alliance" for their digital cameras....

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Dec 2, 2006 12:14:51 AM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: MMD

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
MMD said:
Quote:
ERdoc said:

As a Leica shooter/collector/dealer, I know very well what you mean.

Hey, since the digital photography conquest, what's my Leica M6 worth? Pristine condition; bought new in 1992.

Worth about $1850, with box I suspect.

Dan

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Dec 2, 2006 2:35:30 AM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Should a Carrera or Carrera S exist at all?

Quote:
Dan L said:

Worth about $1850, with box I suspect.

Dan

Reeeeeally?! Wow. I just figured it was rather worthless; i.e. not worth the effort to sell it so just keep it. Gotta go find it.

Thanks Dan.

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