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    Oct 30, 2006 2:41:39 AM

    Mike (La Jolla)
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    Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I need to replace my 996TT X50 in April. I got this X50 as a holdover from my 2002 996TT to the 997TT. Now that the 997TT is out, I'm unimpressed. I've been flamed out of the 'other' list, and the information is altogether better here anyways. Some questions:

    1. What exactly would I expect the difference to be between a 2003 X50 GIAC stage 2 modified 996TT and a 997TT? Why not just keep the X50, especially since I have had the transmission replaced?
    2. I was 'unhappy' with the drive train reliability of the X50. Has PAG fixed this on the 997TT? 'Tip' is a non-starter for me ...
    3. I only have 1 parking space, so my single car must be a daily driver. What alternatives to the 997TT do I have? Assume I can afford a Gallardo, F430, Z06, etc. Can any of these alternatives reasonably be used as a daily driver?
    4. I do track at DE's and need a car that can handle 8 continuous hours of tracking. I do this once per month. Is the new PAG going to continue to be hostile to those of us who track? Is this attitude different with the other car companies?
    5. Can the 997 GT3 be used as a daily driver? 'Too harsh' is OK. I don't drive very far to/from work.
    6. I had a 996 in the first model year and the interior sucked. Any problems with the first model year of the 997TT? When will the second model year be available?

    Help! I am really struggling with this. I was treated poorly by PAG during my X50 transmission issues and am having trouble justifying getting another vehicle from this company. But I cannot identify any reasonable alternative. Maybe the Audi R8?

    Oct 30, 2006 3:38:58 AM

    ADias
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    Mike (La Jolla) said:
    ...I was treated poorly by PAG during my X50 transmission issues and am having trouble justifying getting another vehicle from this company. But I cannot identify any reasonable alternative. Maybe the Audi R8?



    You do not seem to care about the essence of a 911 design. In that case, try something else - you say an R8 - totally unproven, but OK.

    Oct 30, 2006 4:30:44 AM

    355Spider
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    Reply to: ADias

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Sounds like a GT3 would be better for you. try a different flavor this time. A gallardo would also be an excellent daily driver. I would personally take the 430 though. Good luck. It's hard to go wrong with any of them.

    Oct 30, 2006 2:19:36 PM

    TT Surgeon
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    R8 in your case.

    Oct 30, 2006 2:22:44 PM

    mawyatt
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike,

    My 997TT is my daily drive and I love it...replaced my 993C2 which I still have (love this car as well). I'm a die hard Porsche fan from way back (since 86 my daily drives are Porsche) so not a good reference for the 430 and Lambo.

    The 997TT interior is outstanding, much better than the 993. This is not a big deal with me but I can't complain. The fit and finish is superb....Lexus quality. Heck the fit and finish of the whole car is up to Lexus standards.

    Porsche has tried to hit the GT market with the 997TT, and IMO have done an excellent job. It's as fast as any of the traditional super cars (430, Gallardo, Z06, Viper, even the 996GT2 from what I have read) and yet as docile as any standard luxery car. I went out this past weekend to put some highway miles on, and a few safe high speed bursts, all trying to get past the 2K break-in with something other than my 2 mile trek to and from work. I was in the car for nearly 3 hours continous and was very confortable the entire time....not so if I had the 993C2 (lowered with H&R and somewhat stiff).

    I'm not as an accomplished driver as some here, so the 997TT is plenty for me. The car just handles superbly, someone posted, "like it's velcroed to the road". My 993C2 is prety tight but the 997TT is just glued down!!

    The biggest problem with the 997TT IMO is it's so well refined you don't realize how fast you are going, especially in turns. With the Adjustable Sport Seat option you are held tighlty in position and don't feel like you need to hold on to keep from flying out the window. The PSM helps keep everything under control, even at "widow maker" cornering speeds.

    If you feel you need more power you can always chip up the 997TT, which if this follows the 996TT line will add 50 reliable hp with only a chip change. Higher hp gains will probably require engine mods. I would wait for this option until all the bugs are worked out.


    These are just my thoughts,

    Mike

    Oct 30, 2006 3:53:19 PM

    Texas911
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    Reply to: mawyatt

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I think that for everyday, and tracking and all the other requirements, why not try and spec out a regular 997 S with the X51? GT3 would be brutal for everday commuting. The 997 TT kinda unproven with its Variable Turbo. Just a good stop gap until they shore up the 997 TT.

    Oct 30, 2006 4:02:00 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike, form all I have read the 997TT is an excellent daily car. However, based on my 996TT driving experience and comments regarding the 997TT the car is not particularly stimulating to drive. No doubt it is fast and will be competitive on the track but it lacks distinction (yesterday I saw a Cayman coming toward me and as we passed each other going in opposite directions to my surprise it was a 997TT).

    The Z06 can be driven daily and will ouperform the 997TT on a track. The 997GT3 gets high marks for EXCITING perf.but driving around with a big wing on the rear does not strike me as a daily car. The 430 can be a daily car but it is difficult to get one. The Gallardo is a winner and certainly should be included in your decision making.

    Finally, you put your finger on a important point regarding Porsche and its policy on tracking. Their position is clearly stated in the car literature. Warranty is lost should failure occur during tracking. Ferrari and GM do not have that policy. I do not know what position Audi takes on the Gallardo.

    Oct 30, 2006 5:48:57 PM

    W211
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    Mike (La Jolla) said:
    6. I had a 996 in the first model year and the interior sucked.



    If you can't stand the interior of the 996, you would hate the Z06. The 997TT has the nicest interior if you ask me. The Gallardo's interior looks a lot like an Audi, the 430's centre console and dash is a little crude and dated, no map based navigation.

    I like the AWD being able to easily put the power down rain or shine, so would pick the Gallardo or 997TT over the rest.

    Oct 30, 2006 5:57:48 PM

    roadtrip
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    997 tt is the complete package for all the reasons owners have stated,... i'd like to add one more visibility, there simply are no blind spots in driving this car.for some reason this is very important to me,... particularily in a daily driver....while i'm not personally familiar with your other choices im thinking they can't be as good in this dept

    as to the r8 the only draw back i see is that it's butt ugly...imo

    Oct 30, 2006 6:07:36 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I think the new 997GT3 will be perfect for you - you don't need AWD or even non-sport tires in La Jolla and the PASM is much easier to live with on a daily basis than the previous GT3, afaik.

    Oct 30, 2006 6:19:48 PM

    STRADALE
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    Reply to: TT Surgeon

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    The R8 is pretty cool looking and looks to be a performer but I wouldn't buy that car now. Shortly they will have a more powerful version. If that kinda thing doesn't bother you then fine, it would bother the heck out of me. To be driving what you think is the ultimate sports car only to be the one driving the girly man version R8 a year later.

    Problem w/ choosing the F430 is getting one at msrp and plus it's not really a daily driver.

    Sounds like you spend just as many hours on the track as commuting. If that were my case I'd look at the 997 GT2 or GT3RS (if you can get one) Or maybe the possible lighter/more powerful RWD only Gallardo. Can't wait to get my 997 turbo but I really don't look at the car as a track oriented/focused machine. Although for a little of everything it's #1 imo. As for it vs your 996 turbo, well, come on as car guys you know the answer.

    Oct 31, 2006 12:14:21 AM

    tony2006
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike - I share your view. I am going from a CL55 to either a 997 TT or R8. I have reservation about 997tt because of not distinctive/exciting styling and lag. Not considering a F430 because cannot get one for MSRP. May consider a Gallardo if it is mechanically reliable enough as a daily driver. I have some time so I will wait for the V-10 R8 to come out. If you need it now, your only alternative is probably the Gallardo.

    Oct 31, 2006 12:34:30 AM

    Dan L
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    The 997TT would be the only car on your short list that I think could go from daily driver to monthly track car and continue to be reliable. The interior of the 997TT is, being just like the Carreras, first rate, and as essentially a third year release, pretty solid.

    But, as Nick clearly states, the 997TT has taken high performance driving and made it so easy that it takes some of the excitement away. It's extremely hard to lose it in any 997 today. Perhaps when they come out with the GT2 version that will be different. If you want an element of excitement back suggest you seriously consider the GT3. No turbo lag, Useable power, and a level of excitement that may be getting lost or muted by the 997tt cars. Years ago the 930 was the sort of balls-to-the-walls performance machine that many were looking for,--but somewhere along the way it got turned into more of a 'image car' and a lot of the tricks were turned off or turned way down, since it was getting harder to heel and toe with their Gucci loafers...

    dan

    Oct 31, 2006 2:03:25 AM

    Over the Hill
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I only have 1 parking space, so my single car must be a daily driver. What alternatives to the 997TT do I have?

    Only one parking space? Is it under cover? Is it secure? Do you have on street parking? If you answer "yes" I would suggest a GT 3 for the DE's and weekend drives. With the money you save over the other options get a daily driver like a Buick, etc. or maybe a pickup and park it on the street.

    Oct 31, 2006 2:05:37 AM

    Turbo Al Offline
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike,

    I agree with Grant on this one, if you are unsettled about the 997TT, then go with the 997GT3 (or GT3RS). Certainly, the streets of LaJolla won't demand AWD for daily driving. Of course, I would go with the 997TT, then tune the c--- out of it (in fact, that is what I am GOING to do ).

    If you need to track the car for 8-hour runs, you're better off with the GT3/GT3RS over the TT, but in my mind, ALL the cars you mention (997TT, 997GT3, Gallardo, 430, ZO6) can be daily drivers, so your selection should be based on what you would have the most fun driving everyday, since, for your locale, you could live with anyone of them. And you would use it everyday so it would be more of a steady girlfriend than a hot date.

    And finally, this is a place where Porschephiles rule, so you will get advice (including from me) to stick with Porsche. So, in the end, if you are tuning-obsessed (like me) and have a cooperative dealer, then go with the 997TT, if not, then go with the 997GT3/GT3RS.

    Al

    Oct 31, 2006 4:24:07 AM

    WBH
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Consider buying new 599 at mkt....doubt 12-18 mo deprec costs (despite $150K mkt premium) will be any worse than loaded 997TT/Gallardo....

    Aside from pesky F safety unknowns/risks (but guys who like non-factory-spec mods, tracks and cars w/o PSM like risk, right? ), suspect 599 is much better daily driver than 997TT (28gall fuel tank, Bluetooth, iPod, real trunk, etc)....yet much more sportscar-like than the Prius Turbo, w/engaging exhaust note, no turbo lag/nonlinearity BS and an already-iterated 21st-century tranny now (not some attempt at a first-gen modern tranny in 12-18 mos )....

    Oct 31, 2006 10:25:51 AM

    W211
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I'm curious how loud the 599 is. In the 360, I found the stereo and phone conversations irrelevant. The car was simply too noisy dominated by the engine and exhaust. I find the current MB SL with the top down more phone and stereo friendly than the 360 coupe.

    With the exception of the 612 which I haven't driven yet, I find Ferraris ok as a weekender but too tiring to use as the daily driver. In fact, even in the supposedly too quiet 997TT, I want to pull aside if I need to have a decent conversation with my office.

    My daily driver means a pleasant environment to carry out certain amount of mobile office work - checking voicemail, returning calls, etc. The 997TT fits the bill.

    Oct 31, 2006 12:49:36 PM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: W211

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike, when I first starting researching my next(this) car purchase, I wasn't even considering the 997 series at all. The 996 cab I had was a car I never connected with. It was souless compared to my E36M3 and 944 turbo. The styling was bland, and the car is as common as Chevrolet in Houston. I was heavily leaning towards an Aston Vantage V8.

    The Vantage has a world class interior finish and a voluptuous body. Driving it though reminds you of a beautiful date that was comatose in bed. Maybe you could get her to wake up a little but her performance was always going to disappoint. That plus the numerous factory paint defects I see (there is a high end body shop near me that is always correcting factory defects on new Astons)

    Next came the Gallardo. Nothing to me is more exciting than seeing a Gallardo. The sound is mesmerizing. The interior very snug to the point of claustrophobia. The seats (in the 04 at least) were designed by a domanitrix. The visibility a joke - looking behind you is like peering through a mail slot. There is no comfortable position for your left foot unless you are working the clutch constantly. This is not a car I would ever feel comfortable with parking in a public area. I would want to sleep next to the car to make sure it was secure. This reminded me of some of the crazy redheads I dated. Very exciting, but very demanding/needy and in the end very exhausting. That being said, I still want one every now and then.

    Considering your quest for a daily driver (mine is not), let's go back to the turbo. Yes there are more exotic looking cars. Yes, some are more visceral and emotional. For a car that can do it all day, all night 24/7 you really can't write off the turbo. Paying this much money for a car you might consider it like marriage. What fulfills all your needs and doesn't become an intolerable headache? This car is more affable than argumentative and that to me makes it a best fit to what you have described as your situation.

    Oct 31, 2006 2:00:34 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: Dan L

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    Dan L said:
    If you want an element of excitement back suggest you seriously consider the GT3. No turbo lag, Useable power, and a level of excitement that may be getting lost or muted by the 997tt cars. dan



    Dan, I think you've made several good points, however, to state that the GT3 has more "useable power" than the 997tt couldn't be more misleading...imho.

    Oct 31, 2006 2:47:16 PM

    VGA18
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    For daily drive go for 997 TT .It is the most suitable daily car if compared to G or F

    Otherwise go for 2007 Gallardo without doubt. It will rise adrenalin while driving and it design is the best compared to its rivals.

    Oct 31, 2006 2:55:00 PM

    Gary(SF)
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    Reply to: W211

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    W211 said:
    I'm curious how loud the 599 is. In the 360, I found the stereo and phone conversations irrelevant.



    Must have had aftermarket exhaust. The stock 360 is actually *too* quiet in most enthusiasts' opinion, hence the thriving exhaust aftermarket. I never found engine noise to be an issue in the 360 or the 430, they are very well insulated from that type of noise.

    I'm not sure about the 599, but if it follows 550 and 575 practice it will be very quiet, suitable for a long drive in complete comfort.

    Gary

    Oct 31, 2006 3:32:53 PM

    kush
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    8 continuous hours of tracking?! I don't know what manufacturer would consider that normal usage. I understand your pissed that Porsche has bailed on your claim, but I'm not sure I blame them. Care to elaborate on your experience?

    Make sure you listen to opinions from those who have driven these cars. There are many, but there are just as many that simply regurgitate other's observations in order to push their own agendas.

    Good luck.

    Oct 31, 2006 3:45:44 PM

    LL
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    Reply to: kush

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    I agree with Kush. 8 hours is quite an ambitious requirement. Especially considering that you want to use it as a daily driver as well. I don't think that combination is realistic with any car - even short term.
    But if you cut down on your track racing ambitions, I would probably go for a 2006 Gallardo. It has the wow factor during daily driving, it is competent on track (albeit you may want to get some proper track equipment, i.e. brakes, wheels, etc.) and I think it is simply stunningly beautiful.

    Otherwise, you'd probably be better off with a 996 GT3RS/997 GT3, but for daily use, I don't think so.

    Oct 31, 2006 8:31:29 PM

    RSA333 Offline
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    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike-

    Having read the dialogue on the "other" list, I do agree that your inquiry was pretty much disregarded and you were dumped on.

    My impressions - the X50 is a great car, I should never have sold mine. I now own a 2005 996 GT3, which is too harsh for daily driving, but great on highways and other places. Having lived in La Jolla for many years in the past, I don't agree that AWD would not be of use there - especially as there are great places to travel to by car that can exploit the 997 Turbo's AWD.

    What I don't quite understand from this and the 'other' list is the splitting of hairs about how powerful the car should be. At the track, a good driver (depending on the track) can always outperform someone driving a car with 100-200 more hp with less experience. Now power-to-weight ratio is a consideration, but seat time is always the most critical determinate.

    The Gallardo is not a good daily driver, and IMHO, is not as reliable as past Porsches.

    Just my $0.02. - Gerry

    Nov 3, 2006 1:30:10 AM

    Mike (La Jolla)
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    Reply to: kush

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    kush said:
    8 continuous hours of tracking?! I don't know what manufacturer would consider that normal usage. I understand you're pissed that Porsche has bailed on your claim, but I'm not sure I blame them. Care to elaborate on your experience?
    Good luck.



    The track events I go to are DE's at Willow Springs, Button Willow, and Laguna Seca here in California. I have had three Porsches and all have tolerated 8 hours of continuous use (2 drivers) with a 30-minute break for lunch. The three cars have been MY99 996, 2002 911TT and 2003 911TT X50 - 7 years worth of DE's. The transmission on the X50 failed and required a replacement. Porsche didn't stand behind the product, claiming I had 'abused' the car. And told me to 'learn how to drive'. That long sorry saga is here:
    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?t=249285

    I have no idea what you people are talking about regarding car reliability and track events. At the DE events that I am at, BMW330's, M3, M5's, 996TT's, Boxsters, 996's, Vipers, and Lotus Elise's all run continuously without trouble. I have yet to see a Ferrari or a Maserati make it to the end of the day. I've seen an M5 burn up a clutch. The Z06 guys regularly run their cars off the road. But most of'em can still be driven home.

    Quote:
    I'm not sure I blame them



    I don't understand Porsche's position at all. Seems to me they want the best of both worlds: Let marketing define the cars as 'race bred' and let the accountants refuse to pay for the consequences of tracking. Please help me clarify this position. My questions:

    The sticker on my X50 in 2003 was $159k. Exactly what did I pay for?
    What is acceptable? DE's? Autocross? Autobahn? Twisties? Drag-Racing?
    What level of reliability can I reasonability expect from a car of this caliber?
    What constitutes abuse? How is it defined?

    Porsche is saying that I am not allowed to track the car without voiding the warranty. Autocross also constitutes abuse. What exactly am I paying for? I own a 450HP top-end model Porsche that cannot be used in the US legally anywhere near its design limits unless I take this car to a track? This constitutes 'abuse'? Huh? So I supposed to adhere to the 25MPH speed limit to/from work and shine the car up on Sunday for my concourse friends? Pissed? Yeah, I guess that is how feel.

    Nov 3, 2006 5:01:38 AM

    eclou Offline
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Mike,

    one of the things that need to be kept in consideration is that as your lap times diminish and your speeds increase, the amount of wear on your car is going to increase. Couple that with taking out heavier and more powerful vehicles and you have to consider that mechanical failure is going to be more and more a possibility.

    I ran an E36M3 for a few years which had "0" complications and could easily go all day long at the track and then be driven home without any worry of problems arising. As I got faster, I knew that the beatings would only get more severe on the car. My solution was to "go cheap and light" and so I built up a 944 turbo with 100 more HP, 300 lbs less weight, and much more safety equipment and a trailer. My lap times were 10 seconds quicker, speeds 10-20mph higher, but my failure rate was now maybe 1 in 3 weekends. The difference was - I was not going to be heartbroken even if the $3000 944 got stuffed into the armco, so I was trying to break it.

    The 996 turbos are not light cars, and although they would probably endure 24 hours of autobahn usage without a hiccup, 8 hours of DE between 2 different drivers is alot to ask. I am not saying that Porsche should not cover you, but certain precautions would help minimize the possibility of system failures - extra oil and tranny coolers, higher temp brake fluid, electric fan override switch, etc. At that point though, I would still consider "going cheap"

    Nov 3, 2006 6:42:16 PM

    Mike (La Jolla)
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    Reply to: eclou

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The 996 turbos are not light cars, and although they would probably endure 24 hours of autobahn usage without a hiccup, 8 hours of DE between 2 different drivers is alot to ask. I am not saying that Porsche should not cover you, but certain precautions would help minimize the possibility of system failures - extra oil and tranny coolers, higher temp brake fluid, electric fan override switch, etc. At that point though, I would still consider "going cheap"

    I am afraid this is the conclusion I am coming to:
    -A daily beater (Probably an Accord)
    -A track-only car of some sort.

    I can't convince myself the 997TT can handle my requirements - too heavy, too numb, not enough reliability. Care to make a recommendation? Assume your budget is $200k and that needs to last 3 years or so.

    Nov 3, 2006 6:58:24 PM

    devo
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    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    Mike (La Jolla) said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The 996 turbos are not light cars, and although they would probably endure 24 hours of autobahn usage without a hiccup, 8 hours of DE between 2 different drivers is alot to ask. I am not saying that Porsche should not cover you, but certain precautions would help minimize the possibility of system failures - extra oil and tranny coolers, higher temp brake fluid, electric fan override switch, etc. At that point though, I would still consider "going cheap"

    I am afraid this is the conclusion I am coming to:
    -A daily beater (Probably an Accord)
    -A track-only car of some sort.

    I can't convince myself the 997TT can handle my requirements - too heavy, too numb, not enough reliability. Care to make a recommendation? Assume your budget is $200k and that needs to last 3 years or so.



    Daily beater: Honda Accord Ex V6
    Track/ Limited use weekend twistie car: 997 GT3

    Nov 3, 2006 8:11:47 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: devo

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    devo said:
    Quote:
    Mike (La Jolla) said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The 996 turbos are not light cars, and although they would probably endure 24 hours of autobahn usage without a hiccup, 8 hours of DE between 2 different drivers is alot to ask. I am not saying that Porsche should not cover you, but certain precautions would help minimize the possibility of system failures - extra oil and tranny coolers, higher temp brake fluid, electric fan override switch, etc. At that point though, I would still consider "going cheap"

    I am afraid this is the conclusion I am coming to:
    -A daily beater (Probably an Accord)
    -A track-only car of some sort.

    I can't convince myself the 997TT can handle my requirements - too heavy, too numb, not enough reliability. Care to make a recommendation? Assume your budget is $200k and that needs to last 3 years or so.



    Daily beater: Honda Accord Ex V6
    Track/ Limited use weekend twistie car: 997 GT3


    Or since there would be money left over, how about Cayman DD and GT3RS track car?

    Nov 3, 2006 9:46:38 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
    Veteran
    MAVERICK
    Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States
    Posts: 1145, Gallery
    Registered on: May 31, 2004
    Reply to: Mike (La Jolla)

    Re: Conflicted about 997TT - please help ....

    Quote:
    Mike (La Jolla) said:
    4. I do track at DE's and need a car that can handle 8 continuous hours of tracking. I do this once per month. Is the new PAG going to continue to be hostile to those of us who track? Is this attitude different with the other car companies?




    Yes and yes.
     
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