Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review - Page2

Sep 26, 2006 11:13:27 AM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Crash said:
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MKSGR said:
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RC said:
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Crash said:
Very true. The F430 successor will not be playing around and the 550 bhp FSI Gallardo could prove to be deadly with the right gearing, even to the Turbo powerkit. I just wonder where it's going to stop.

Well, Porsche wouldn't have too much headache to put 600 hp in the 997 Turbo instantly. Why don't they do that? Why should they?

Maybe as some people (like me) do no longer buy Porsche but competing products

BTW: We are all "opinion leaders": If I am frustrated about Porsche, "everbody" (friends, business contacts) will know it. And our opinion will typically have an impact on those who are less focused on certain car brands. Porsche is playing a dangerous game.

I wonder what the GT2 will do for you. If it really gets the 3.8 litre engine and 530 bhp, it should be quite a performer (100 kg less than the Turbo and 50 bhp more), but whether it will be able to hang with the 599 and the LP640 is another story (the old one could, in comparison to the 575).

Unfortunately, the 997GT2 won't be launched prior to 2008 (at least this is very likely based on what I know to date). Also, the 997GT2 is unlikely to come with PSM.

The last aspect is a major problem for me. The first aspect is also a problem as this implies that reliable news about the availability of PSM in the new GT2 will not be communicated soon.

Thus I would have to wait until fall (?) next year until I know whether a GT2 with PSM will be available. Then I could finally order one...

I do not have the patience (and will) to wait until Porsche decides to inform those who intend to spend tons of money on a new sports car. As RC pointed out: there are other options.

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

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Sep 26, 2006 1:35:20 PM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

RC- fortunately, maybe Porsche will start to turn the corner and make more all out cars, rather than "just enough" cars when even the die-hards like you question their convictions....I love the brand and always will, but I have my concerns/questions:(

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Sep 26, 2006 2:02:08 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Very true. The F430 successor will not be playing around and the 550 bhp FSI Gallardo could prove to be deadly with the right gearing, even to the Turbo powerkit. I just wonder where it's going to stop.

Well, Porsche wouldn't have too much headache to put 600 hp in the 997 Turbo instantly. Why don't they do that? Why should they?

Maybe as some people (like me) do no longer buy Porsche but competing products

BTW: We are all "opinion leaders": If I am frustrated about Porsche, "everbody" (friends, business contacts) will know it. And our opinion will typically have an impact on those who are less focused on certain car brands. Porsche is playing a dangerous game.

I wonder what the GT2 will do for you. If it really gets the 3.8 litre engine and 530 bhp, it should be quite a performer (100 kg less than the Turbo and 50 bhp more), but whether it will be able to hang with the 599 and the LP640 is another story (the old one could, in comparison to the 575).

Unfortunately, the 997GT2 won't be launched prior to 2008 (at least this is very likely based on what I know to date). Also, the 997GT2 is unlikely to come with PSM.

The last aspect is a major problem for me. The first aspect is also a problem as this implies that reliable news about the availability of PSM in the new GT2 will not be communicated soon.

Thus I would have to wait until fall (?) next year until I know whether a GT2 with PSM will be available. Then I could finally order one...

I do not have the patience (and will) to wait until Porsche decides to inform those who intend to spend tons of money on a new sports car. As RC pointed out: there are other options.

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

If the GT2 doesn't come before 2008, that is going to be bad news for Porsche. It definitely isn't going to be faster than the 599 regarding top speed, but if top end is to be set at 325 km/h (which was rumored), one would at least expect it to be able to hang decently with the 599 up to 300 km/h. However, looking at your situation, I am now convinced that the 599 is the car for you. There really is no substitute at the moment.

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Sep 26, 2006 2:06:00 PM

Porsche-Jeck: Rennteam Master; Loc: Rheinland , Germany; Posts: 4856, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 27, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
RC said:
HERE IS THE REVIEW, enjoy:
.
.
.
.

Porsche, GM, Ferrari and Lamborghini should send you "Thank you" letters for making life easier for them. Honestly.

The reading itself has been a great joy indeed, because your review is structured very well and shows a great balance in mentioning all the pros and cons based on objective data and subjective driving impressions

Kudos to you for this great review which should be a mandatory lecture for all so-called motor journalists

Also thank you very much for taking the effort of writing the extensive report despite your recently increasing workload from business.

Of course the joy ends when reading the final sentence of your review

PAG seems to be in need of some fresh blood and new thinking (or should I say "old" blood and "old" thinking) in order to refocus on two main basics of their heritage:
superior (not only "on par") performance (in terms of objective data) and ultimate driving fun (in terms of subjective driving impressions).
I'm sure it can be done even without putting PAG's high profit margins at risk. I'm also sure it's not too late to steer back onto this track. However I'm speaking as a sportscar lover and not as a marketing expert - if PAG is of the opinion, that (in terms of financial performance, market size etc.) MB-AMG or M-BMW audience should be their future main target market (instead of Ferrari / Lambo), sportscar lovers who don't have the means of paying money north of GT3-money or TT-money will have a hard time. Ironically it's Audi (with PAG as an indirect major shareholder via VAG) who tries to address this market with the upcoming R8 (though it remains to be seen whether the car will be a success).

Thanks again for the excellent review

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Sep 26, 2006 3:26:58 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: TurboBat

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

GREAT write-up RC, thanks a bunch!

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Sep 27, 2006 4:30:56 AM

bostonmini: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 924, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 31, 2003; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Does anyone know if any pasm-software related items would be available to fix the apparently quirky 997 TT handling? from what RC is saying if both PASM and the new awd are not so hot...ugh, just go back to the 996 setup!

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Sep 27, 2006 2:20:37 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Nice summary, thanks for the long and detailed report.

I would like to add a few thoughts to the discussion about the Turbo's character. Admittedly the car is bloody fast for public streets, not only is it difficult to explore the limit in a safe way in these surroundings, you won't feel completely satisfied as well. As I see it, the Turbo is amongst, if not the, fast GTs to effortlessly travel in style and comfort. Especially the later has been significantly improved over its predecessor, which makes it even more suitable.

The tendency of oversteer might only be obvious at extremely high speeds, which one should regularly obtain in controlled surroundings only, namely racetracks. This setup provides a lot more fun than any other configuration, furthermore it will be faster. It didn't become clear to me, whether your experience of oversteer is a result of shifting the car's weight from rear to front or an obvious handling feature under all circumstances. Maybe you could shed some more light on this.

Regarding the performance, the Turbo should be suitably fast for the majority of old and new customers - that is, until they meet up with an appropriate car from one of the rival brands.

I believe that the GT2 will appear in MY 08, rather than in the corresponding annual date. More than ever before, the GT2 could become an interesting addition to Porsche's lineup, rather than a niche product as the aircooled GT2s had been.

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Sep 27, 2006 3:05:07 PM

J.Seven: Rennteam Master; Loc: Estoril , Portugal; Posts: 3201, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 16, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

RC we'be been in contact ever since you had your 996 Carrera(the one who made you sweat on highway when supension tower broke at more than 250Kph in a curve with a 993TT racing you behind)

back in 1998/9, and ever since those times you have been one of the most valuable posters of all time on every foruns you were a member.
Thanks for sharing with us thrue out the years all your knowlodge and passion for cars (even if sometimes I don't agree with you

)

Everything was already said about your 997TT report, so I can only say to keep the unique and great work you have been doing

J.Seven

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Sep 27, 2006 7:53:14 PM

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , United States; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registered on: May 11, 2004; Reply to: J.Seven

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

RC,
Very nice write-up....lots of good information.
I would interpret from your observations that maybe the "best" 997TT would be one without PASM and PSM and with the throttle mapped to Sport Chrono at all times

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Sep 27, 2006 8:11:56 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: 964C2

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
964C2 said:
RC,
Very nice write-up....lots of good information.
I would interpret from your observations that maybe the "best" 997TT would be one without PASM and PSM and with the throttle mapped to Sport Chrono at all times

Might as well get rid of the FWD also

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Sep 27, 2006 8:32:43 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: 964C2

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
964C2 said:
RC,
Very nice write-up....lots of good information.
I would interpret from your observations that maybe the "best" 997TT would be one without PASM and PSM and with the throttle mapped to Sport Chrono at all times

The 996 Turbo had all that. It was called the 996 GT2. The new GT2 will be awesome if they can get the PSM working with a full LSD and ditch that pesky PASM.

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Sep 27, 2006 9:51:29 PM

electrao: Junior; Loc: Lisbon , Portugal; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 10, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

that plus better looking "plastics" and interiors and you may end up with something interesting...like a GT2!!

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Sep 27, 2006 10:31:08 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

If the GT2 doesn't come before 2008, that is going to be bad news for Porsche. It definitely isn't going to be faster than the 599 regarding top speed, but if top end is to be set at 325 km/h (which was rumored), one would at least expect it to be able to hang decently with the 599 up to 300 km/h. However, looking at your situation, I am now convinced that the 599 is the car for you. There really is no substitute at the moment.

I don't understand all this apples and oranges?

Maybe it's an autobahn thing, but the 599GTB is a heavy GT car while the GT2 is a trackmonster with sublime power.

GT2 is not designed for optimal top speed runs at high speed (e.g. fixed wing). The best compromise is probably the 599 between GT2 and SL65

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Sep 27, 2006 11:49:34 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Hurst

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Hurst said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

If the GT2 doesn't come before 2008, that is going to be bad news for Porsche. It definitely isn't going to be faster than the 599 regarding top speed, but if top end is to be set at 325 km/h (which was rumored), one would at least expect it to be able to hang decently with the 599 up to 300 km/h. However, looking at your situation, I am now convinced that the 599 is the car for you. There really is no substitute at the moment.

I don't understand all this apples and oranges?

Maybe it's an autobahn thing, but the 599GTB is a heavy GT car while the GT2 is a trackmonster with sublime power.

GT2 is not designed for optimal top speed runs at high speed (e.g. fixed wing). The best compromise is probably the 599 between GT2 and SL65

Found 997TT to be anemic vs 65/599 even in simple urban 60-100MPH bursts....doubt GT2 turbo lag will be much less apparent....nor will the Prius-like exhaust note likely be much better...and GT2 lacks 997TT wet pavement advantages...

Not sure if track guys uniformly favor greater hp/tq, but nonlinearity, of GT2 vs GT3RS....

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Sep 28, 2006 8:57:36 AM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Hurst

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Hurst said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

If the GT2 doesn't come before 2008, that is going to be bad news for Porsche. It definitely isn't going to be faster than the 599 regarding top speed, but if top end is to be set at 325 km/h (which was rumored), one would at least expect it to be able to hang decently with the 599 up to 300 km/h. However, looking at your situation, I am now convinced that the 599 is the car for you. There really is no substitute at the moment.

I don't understand all this apples and oranges?

Maybe it's an autobahn thing, but the 599GTB is a heavy GT car while the GT2 is a trackmonster with sublime power.

GT2 is not designed for optimal top speed runs at high speed (e.g. fixed wing). The best compromise is probably the 599 between GT2 and SL65

Markus had a 996TT X50 before and is now shopping for another car - since he is considering the 599, the comparison is very legitimate, especially because he was also looking into the GT2. Regarding top speed runs, the fixed wing is very helpful, as it keeps the car more planted to the ground (the german Autobahns aren't always flat and straight). I'd be willing to give up some top end acceleration for more control any day.

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Sep 28, 2006 10:43:38 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Crash said:
...the german Autobahns aren't always flat and straight..

That's a nice compliment, Crash.

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Sep 28, 2006 3:34:30 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Rossi said:
Quote:
Crash said:
...the german Autobahns aren't always flat and straight..

That's a nice compliment, Crash.

It is, isn't it?

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Sep 28, 2006 4:41:00 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
Hurst said:
Quote:
Crash said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:

P.S.: I am convinced (given the rather disappointing high-speed performance of the 997TT) that the GT2 will be slower (straight line) than the 599.

If the GT2 doesn't come before 2008, that is going to be bad news for Porsche. It definitely isn't going to be faster than the 599 regarding top speed, but if top end is to be set at 325 km/h (which was rumored), one would at least expect it to be able to hang decently with the 599 up to 300 km/h. However, looking at your situation, I am now convinced that the 599 is the car for you. There really is no substitute at the moment.

I don't understand all this apples and oranges?

Maybe it's an autobahn thing, but the 599GTB is a heavy GT car while the GT2 is a trackmonster with sublime power.

GT2 is not designed for optimal top speed runs at high speed (e.g. fixed wing). The best compromise is probably the 599 between GT2 and SL65

Markus had a 996TT X50 before and is now shopping for another car - since he is considering the 599, the comparison is very legitimate, especially because he was also looking into the GT2. Regarding top speed runs, the fixed wing is very helpful, as it keeps the car more planted to the ground (the german Autobahns aren't always flat and straight). I'd be willing to give up some top end acceleration for more control any day.

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Sep 29, 2006 3:37:01 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Finally had a chance to read your report and as others have indicated a terrific report! Your objectivity was evident.

Bottom line the 997TT is a terrific car car with flaws as are other super cars. It is marketed for daily drivers who on rare occasions have an opportunity to test their driving skills and the car would meet and exceed their need in this area. The 997TT should not be compared to the Gallardo or 430 because it really is designed for a different market segment.

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Oct 1, 2006 7:48:13 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

VERY NICE REVIEW.
Thanks a lot.
Just a consideration: Gallardo and F430 should be comopared to the upcoming 911GT2 IMHO.

What do you think RC?

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Oct 1, 2006 8:03:01 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
silvershadow said:
VERY NICE REVIEW.
Thanks a lot.
Just a consideration: Gallardo and F430 should be comopared to the upcoming 911GT2 IMHO.

What do you think RC?

Why should they be compared to the 997 GT2? The 997 Turbo is at least at par with Gallardo and F430 performance, in some domains even better. Have you guys actually read my short review?

The only "problem" I have with the 997 Turbo is the fact, that it isn't much better than the Gallardo and F430, something I had hoped for. On the other hand, if you compare the price tags of all three cars, the 997 Turbo is actually a bargain. This is why maybe, price-wise, the Gallardo and F430 could be compared to the upcoming 997 GT2 but otherwise, I don't see how they would be any competition for the new GT2. The new GT2 is more of a F599 and Murcielago competitor, even if it weights less than the 997 Turbo.

I still wouldn't buy the F430 or the Gallardo, simply because I think that the 997 Turbo delivers an overall better package with the same or even better performance compared to both. And don't forget that at least a third of the 997 Turbo owners will add more power to their cars sooner or later, this is something well known from the 996 Turbo past. So speaking about real life performance, the 997 Turbo still rules but not by much.

The only car I'm really surprised with is the Corvette Z06. It may have a lousy reputation and over here in Germany, you actually have to hide from driving such a car. On the other hand, performance is great and a true bargain for that price. For those who can't afford a 997 Turbo or don't want to spend so much money for a sports car, the Z06 is a very good choice, like it or not. Of course only for your personal driving pleasure at NIGHT.

(just kidding...)

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Oct 1, 2006 8:57:48 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

I think that GT2 and Turbo are a little bit different so that the first one is more like a trackday beast the turbo more a daily drive.
Compared to F430 and Gallardo the Turbo is far more reliable and usable so is an everyday car. The others two are not so this is what makes the comparison difficult.
Gt2 and turbo i think are on the limit of the field in whichm in the middle, F430 and Gallardo are located.

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Oct 1, 2006 8:58:37 PM

silvershadow: Senior; Loc: Zuerich, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 757, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 6, 2003; Reply to: silvershadow

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Hey...I've just seen your signature. Impressive!!!!!

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Oct 3, 2006 6:12:31 PM

W211: Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 410, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 18, 2003; Reply to: hog

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
hog said:
To me, the most disconcerting part of the compromises that Porsche engineers have signed-off is that boost is only activated in conjunction with the harder suspension setting. On roads where I would want to use a little extra boost, engaging it [which has incidentally now been shown on the dyno to increase torque but not hp], hardens the suspension to a setting which makes it too edgy to enjoy.

My favourite setting, extra boost but softer suspension.

You just have to turn off the PASM Sport mode after pressing the Sport Mode button.

One question - is it bad to do launches (brake torque) with the tiptronic? RC seems to be discouraging it? I thought it was actually a built-in feature.

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Oct 3, 2006 7:40:13 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: W211

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
W211 said:
Quote:
hog said:
To me, the most disconcerting part of the compromises that Porsche engineers have signed-off is that boost is only activated in conjunction with the harder suspension setting. On roads where I would want to use a little extra boost, engaging it [which has incidentally now been shown on the dyno to increase torque but not hp], hardens the suspension to a setting which makes it too edgy to enjoy.

My favourite setting, extra boost but softer suspension.

You just have to turn off the PASM Sport mode after pressing the Sport Mode button.

One question - is it bad to do launches (brake torque) with the tiptronic? RC seems to be discouraging it? I thought it was actually a built-in feature.

It's bad for the transmission. A few times won't hurt it, but doing it as a habit might be a bad idea. I destroyed an Audi tranny doing this

.

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Oct 4, 2006 9:09:18 AM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: W211

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Quote:
W211 said:
You just have to turn off the PASM Sport mode after pressing the Sport Mode button.

Best of both worlds, also in the standard 997.

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Oct 4, 2006 9:20:05 PM

Ziggy: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1600, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Thanks RC, great report as always

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Oct 7, 2006 10:31:18 AM

sato: Pilot; Loc: New York, U.S.A.; Posts: 364, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 8, 2005; Reply to: Ziggy

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

Just read your review RC. Good stuff! I'm sure the engineers sympathize.

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Oct 24, 2006 11:32:52 AM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

excellent. realistic. honest.

simple short review to the point.

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Oct 30, 2006 2:09:56 AM

Mike (La Jolla): Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 16, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 27, 2002; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: 997 Turbo - Rennteam Review

RC -- Thanks for your review. You will be amused to hear that I have gotten smacked down harshly for parroting your comments in one of the 'other' forums.

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Motor Sp.	24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018	5/25/23 10:42 PM Grant	11244	55

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