Crown

DJM - but I think the success of Tesla indicates that it does generate emotion in its owners or followers; it is just a different emotion than you or I speak of that relates to the act of driving itself.  In contrast, Tesla owners are experiencing emotions related to social change, or the environment, or being super-tech.  All just as valid issues to be passionate about, just not those of many here. 

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Still more efficient powering an electric car from fossil fuel power stations than burning fuel in a internal combustion engine. At least twice as efficient. 

You got any sources / research on that? Not that I don't believe you, it interests me.

I read somewhere that the net CO2 emission from an electric car and a petrol car is not significantly different.

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

"167 to 224 g/km for an Internal Combustion Engine vehicle, vs. 135 to 200 g/km for a pure Electric Vehicle: it's not an encouraging comparison.  Given the imprecision of the underlying data they can be viewed as essentially equal."

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Electric%20Cars%20and%20CO2.html

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

GE natural gas turbine is more than 62% combined cycle efficiency because it uses the waste heat to generate a secondary power source. Internal combustion engine in a car is only about 20% efficient.  But there is some transmission loss over the grid.

https://powergen.gepower.com/products/heavy-duty-gas-turbines/7ha-gas-turbine.html

Of course in places like France where majority of electricity is nuclear it is much more C02 friendly to go electric. Germany gets 8% of power just from wind.

And there is a second issue that a lot of people ignore. European cities have horrible localized air quality, Paris recently have had to resort to drastic measures, banning odd or even number plates. Street with the highest nitrogen dioxide pollutants is not in China or India but London's Oxford street because of high volume of diesel buses and taxis.

People do not buy these cars because they pollute less, but because they are different ,modern, open a new way of moving , their technology and that you just have to plug in when you get home . I am even convinced for some it is only so they do not dirty their hands anymore .

 964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm --  991 GT3 RS 

Hi 4trac

Your points are well made.

There are none more passionate (and self righteous) than fired up Prius owners convinced they are doing their bit to preserve polar bear habitats.

What we have at the moment, and probably have had since the Model T, is a range of vehicles to choose from that satisfy different requirements and desires. Whilst i admire the technology in the Tesla, it does not stir up any emotion. Perhaps the Mission E will. Perhaps not even Porsche can make an EV truly desirable in the same manner I/we have been lusting after a select group of cars since we were kids.

Perhaps I lack imagination, but will we be at Whoopsy's Area 27 in 15 years comparing sector times and checking tyre pressures whilst our EV's recharge or get topped up with hydrogen. The Golden Era of motoring is passing . Be careful what you sell - you might regret it!!

I truly hope I am proven wrong.

David

Whoopsy - perhaps you need some windmills on top of the hills in the distance.

It might be the world's first carbon neutral motor sport facility  ;-)

David

Gnil:

People do not buy these cars because they pollute less, but because they are different ,modern, open a new way of moving , their technology and that you just have to plug in when you get home . I am even convinced for some it is only so they do not dirty their hands anymore .

+1

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

palenimbus:

GE natural gas turbine is more than 62% combined cycle efficiency because it uses the waste heat to generate a secondary power source. Internal combustion engine in a car is only about 20% efficient.  But there is some transmission loss over the grid.

https://powergen.gepower.com/products/heavy-duty-gas-turbines/7ha-gas-turbine.html

Of course in places like France where majority of electricity is nuclear it is much more C02 friendly to go electric. Germany gets 8% of power just from wind.

And there is a second issue that a lot of people ignore. European cities have horrible localized air quality, Paris recently have had to resort to drastic measures, banning odd or even number plates. Street with the highest nitrogen dioxide pollutants is not in China or India but London's Oxford street because of high volume of diesel buses and taxis

Yes, in some countries the energy is produced cleaner, in some not. So net on average an electric vehicle is same same as a combustion engine  

I totally agree with the local environment. This would probably be the largest environmental factor if everyone drove electric vehicles in the city. Yes, the London air is horrible. When I lived there I used to walk to work (from Tower Bridge to Broadgate) and the constant exposure to diesel fumes were appalling. Electric taxis and buses would make a huge difference.  

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Tesla Model 3 ride review

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/tesla/model-3/95044/tesla-model-3-ride-review

As long as electric cars are being charged at night while there is excess capacity on the grid, then they are almost free of any true cost or pollution.

In my area though, a very efficient ice will produce less CO2 than charging an electric car.

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

bluelines:

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

Solar power already does that?

WAY:

bluelines:

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

Solar power already does that?

At night? 

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Elon Musk: 276k Model 3 orders by end of Saturday

palenimbus:

Elon Musk: 276k Model 3 orders by end of Saturday

That's a $7500 price rise for every Tesla sold in North America, as the federal government subsidy to that amount will no longer apply when the brand succeeds in selling more than 200,000 EVs . (Currently, accumulated sales figures of existing products are something short of 100,000). 

That's one of the points to be surmounted which I had in mind when I said earlier: "Now they have to deliver". 

fritz

fritz:

palenimbus:

Elon Musk: 276k Model 3 orders by end of Saturday

That's a $7500 price rise for every Tesla sold in North America, as the federal government subsidy to that amount will no longer apply when the brand succeeds in selling more than 200,000 EVs . (Currently, accumulated sales figures of existing products are something short of 100,000). 

That's one of the points to be surmounted which I had in mind when I said earlier: "Now they have to deliver". 

Ah, but didn't you know, Sir Elon is an even better negotiator than The Donald - he will just renegotiate that limit up to a more reasonable amount, say 3 million....  

2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S

WAY:

bluelines:

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

Solar power already does that?

Judging by the smiley I think bluelines already understood that I was referring to excess generating capacity available at night which is largely under-utilized. Coal fired plants don't really do well at scaling back at night and ramping up output in the morning. Overnight a large amount of heat generated is simply vented to the atmosphere instead of used to power the steam turbine. Many utilities have developed a large variety of ways to store and recover energy but there is still plenty left to waste at this time.

bluelines:

"167 to 224 g/km for an Internal Combustion Engine vehicle, vs. 135 to 200 g/km for a pure Electric Vehicle: it's not an encouraging comparison.  Given the imprecision of the underlying data they can be viewed as essentially equal."

http://www.paulchefurka.ca/Electric%20Cars%20and%20CO2.html

 

Even if that were true, which it isn't, a 0.001% improvement would be worth it would it not 

Also, let's not forget the different source comparison, see Beijing or any major mega city 

1991 BMW 535i Granitsilber/White Leather

Ex: '91 BMW 318i, '89 BMW 525i, '74 Mercedes-Benz 280E, '87 BMW 325is, '86 BMW 325e, '05 Ford Focus ZX4 S, '85.5 Porsche 944

The car looks from the front like a better looking Panamera.

No doubt I will give a closer look to one and maybe buy one. It is time to test the future guys. The screen looks awkward but it is the future. All the other cars are still same concept like 100 years ago - not much changed. Great that Tesla is going new routes! It needs an visionary to change the common things in world.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3d-72wtkjg

Gladstone:

WAY:

bluelines:

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

Solar power already does that?

Judging by the smiley I think bluelines already understood that I was referring to excess generating capacity available at night which is largely under-utilized. Coal fired plants don't really do well at scaling back at night and ramping up output in the morning. Overnight a large amount of heat generated is simply vented to the atmosphere instead of used to power the steam turbine. Many utilities have developed a large variety of ways to store and recover energy but there is still plenty left to waste at this time.

Ironically, the very same coal plant which least lends itself to switching on and off quickly  -  and therefore generally continues to be run even at low-load periods  -  is the dirtiest source of electricity, and therefore makes the worst ecological case for EVs. 

fritz

That begs the question. If every household is using off-peak electricity to charge their EV in the new world, would that help reduce or eliminate excess capacity at night? More reason for everyone to switch to EV. 

As long as the source energy is not "clean" I guess it does not matter much in the bigger picture. A dirty coal plant is a dirty coal plant. The real benefit will come when the plant can be shut off and we still can charge EVs.

IMHO, from a global environmental standpoint, EVs simply move the problem from one place to another. Dense populated areas gets an improved local environment, while certain rural areas which host power plants gets poorer environment.

It is a lifestyle choice.

(Obviously, the more people who choose this lifestyle the more interest and investment will be given to EV and its energy sources. Hence the current momentum in EVs is not only great, but also necessary to improve for the future)

2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM

Whoopsy:

That screen, while odd, is lights years better than the stupid screen on the Model S.

They have actually put in some design thoughts into doing a touch screen in a car, instead of just backyard hacking a computer monitor into a car.

Showed this to my wife, also showed her the Tesla P90D I test-drove and she would never buy/drive a Tesla because all that high tech. Her best friend, she is very "aware" of the environment and tries to live healthy (to say at least... ) also considered an EV but after a very brief test-drive with a Tesla S, she passed on it and will probably go for a BMW i3.  According to her, too much "high tech" in the interior, especially that large display seems to put women off. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

RC:

Whoopsy:

That screen, while odd, is lights years better than the stupid screen on the Model S.

They have actually put in some design thoughts into doing a touch screen in a car, instead of just backyard hacking a computer monitor into a car.

Showed this to my wife, also showed her the Tesla P90D I test-drove and she would never buy/drive a Tesla because all that high tech. Her best friend, she is very "aware" of the environment and tries to live healthy (to say at least... ) also considered an EV but after a very brief test-drive with a Tesla S, she passed on it and will probably go for a BMW i3.  According to her, too much "high tech" in the interior, especially that large display seems to put women off. 

Totally different here. My wife is even giving her G-Class dream away and puts the Tesla Model X on to the top of the list. I have to add that my wife loves gadgets and new technology so the Tesla is heaven for her. Not sure about the Model X yet, but a Tesla 3 I probably will buy. Just to get the hands on top of some e-Car. 

Lars997:

RC:

Whoopsy:

That screen, while odd, is lights years better than the stupid screen on the Model S.

They have actually put in some design thoughts into doing a touch screen in a car, instead of just backyard hacking a computer monitor into a car.

Showed this to my wife, also showed her the Tesla P90D I test-drove and she would never buy/drive a Tesla because all that high tech. Her best friend, she is very "aware" of the environment and tries to live healthy (to say at least... ) also considered an EV but after a very brief test-drive with a Tesla S, she passed on it and will probably go for a BMW i3.  According to her, too much "high tech" in the interior, especially that large display seems to put women off. 

Totally different here. My wife is even giving her G-Class dream away and puts the Tesla Model X on to the top of the list. I have to add that my wife loves gadgets and new technology so the Tesla is heaven for her. Not sure about the Model X yet, but a Tesla 3 I probably will buy. Just to get the hands on top of some e-Car. 

the same here - all women that have seen the Tesla where excited

AM

fritz:

Gladstone:

WAY:

bluelines:

Free energy. I can see a Nobel price coming up 

Solar power already does that?

Judging by the smiley I think bluelines already understood that I was referring to excess generating capacity available at night which is largely under-utilized. Coal fired plants don't really do well at scaling back at night and ramping up output in the morning. Overnight a large amount of heat generated is simply vented to the atmosphere instead of used to power the steam turbine. Many utilities have developed a large variety of ways to store and recover energy but there is still plenty left to waste at this time.

Ironically, the very same coal plant which least lends itself to switching on and off quickly  -  and therefore generally continues to be run even at low-load periods  -  is the dirtiest source of electricity, and therefore makes the worst ecological case for EVs. 

Most nuclear power plants also do not vary their operation at night. Windmills do not slow at night.