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Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
355Spider said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
The sportauto Supertest reported the following:
M5: 8.13
M6: 8.09 (on cup tires)
F360: 8.09
F360CS: 7.56
996TT: 7.56
Is that just their test? I had always heard the M5 had run a 7:52.
The sportauto supertest is a very comprehensive test including Nuerburgring and Hockenheim track tests, wet handling performance, aerodynamics, etc., etc.
Also, the tests are always done by the same driver. Environmental parameters like temperature, air pressure etc. are published as well. Thus, the test results are very comparable.
Personally, I have never seen a better test in any international publication
BTW: Maverick is right: the only BMW that did the NBR below 8:00 was the M3 CSL on Cup tires.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
355Spider said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
The sportauto Supertest reported the following:
M5: 8.13
M6: 8.09 (on cup tires)
F360: 8.09
F360CS: 7.56
996TT: 7.56
Is that just their test? I had always heard the M5 had run a 7:52.
The sportauto supertest is a very comprehensive test including Nuerburgring and Hockenheim track tests, wet handling performance, aerodynamics, etc., etc.
Also, the tests are always done by the same driver. Environmental parameters like temperature, air pressure etc. are published as well. Thus, the test results are very comparable.
Personally, I have never seen a better test in any international publication
BTW: Maverick is right: the only BMW that did the NBR below 8:00 was the M3 CSL on Cup tires.
I bet that 7:52 is for a shorter part of the track. I have heard that before. A 7:50 sec time for an M3 is damn impressive considering it has 150 less hp than an M5. It was on the same tires as the 996GT3 correct? Not bad a for a 4 seater. Faster than 996 Turbo or Stradale.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
355Spider said:Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
355Spider said:Quote:
MKSGR said:
The sportauto Supertest reported the following:
M5: 8.13
M6: 8.09 (on cup tires)
F360: 8.09
F360CS: 7.56
996TT: 7.56
Is that just their test? I had always heard the M5 had run a 7:52.
The sportauto supertest is a very comprehensive test including Nuerburgring and Hockenheim track tests, wet handling performance, aerodynamics, etc., etc.
Also, the tests are always done by the same driver. Environmental parameters like temperature, air pressure etc. are published as well. Thus, the test results are very comparable.
Personally, I have never seen a better test in any international publication
BTW: Maverick is right: the only BMW that did the NBR below 8:00 was the M3 CSL on Cup tires.
I bet that 7:52 is for a shorter part of the track. I have heard that before. A 7:50 sec time for an M3 is damn impressive considering it has 150 less hp than an M5. It was on the same tires as the 996GT3 correct? Not bad a for a 4 seater. Faster than 996 Turbo or Stradale.
The M3 CSL is considerably lighter than the M3. No power windows or A/C, CF roof and the bottom of the trunk is made out of cardboard. The Pirelli Sport Cups are better tyres than the Corsas used on the 996GT3RS (standard 996 GT3 used normal tyres), so there's an extra advantage. Without those, it would probably hover at about 8:00.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Guys, didn't you all forget that the M5/M6 cars are neutered at 155mph/250km/hr? So there is no point in even comparing the M6, it's a lesser car that not even in the league of Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches and even the Z06. The Merc can be factory optioned to be neutered at 186mph/300km so it's a borderline car.
If we are comparing modified cars, then it's on fair to compared a modified Turbo to a modified M6, not a stock one.
If I go hunting for a M5/M6, I will take my CLS55, 997TT is a step above them, you wouldn't race a Civic in your Turbo would you?
The M cars can be delimited up to 305 km/h...
Every single BMW except I think the M3 CSL are factory electronically limited to 155mph/250km/hr and unless I was mistaken there was NO factory option to remove that limit, hence my arguement.
Granted, any BMW can be easily modified by aftermarket to take out that limit, but in doing so the car is 'modified' already, and it would not be fair to compare it against factory cars anymore.
Porsche is the only major German car factory that do not limit themselves to the lowered limit, and it is one of the perks that sets them one step above the other German carmakers. Have you heard of the un-official Order of the Autobahn? Porsche -> Mercedes -> BMW -> Audi -> VW.
M5/M6 are fantastic performance cars but they just lack that last little bit of performance in stock form to overtake the Turbo, but they sure blows the door off Carrera Ss for roughly the same amount of money. Z06 on the other hand is a much much closer match performance wise to the Turbo.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
Whoopsy said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Guys, didn't you all forget that the M5/M6 cars are neutered at 155mph/250km/hr? So there is no point in even comparing the M6, it's a lesser car that not even in the league of Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches and even the Z06. The Merc can be factory optioned to be neutered at 186mph/300km so it's a borderline car.
If we are comparing modified cars, then it's on fair to compared a modified Turbo to a modified M6, not a stock one.
If I go hunting for a M5/M6, I will take my CLS55, 997TT is a step above them, you wouldn't race a Civic in your Turbo would you?
The M cars can be delimited up to 305 km/h...
Every single BMW except I think the M3 CSL are factory electronically limited to 155mph/250km/hr and unless I was mistaken there was NO factory option to remove that limit, hence my arguement.
Granted, any BMW can be easily modified by aftermarket to take out that limit, but in doing so the car is 'modified' already, and it would not be fair to compare it against factory cars anymore.
Porsche is the only major German car factory that do not limit themselves to the lowered limit, and it is one of the perks that sets them one step above the other German carmakers. Have you heard of the un-official Order of the Autobahn? Porsche -> Mercedes -> BMW -> Audi -> VW.
M5/M6 are fantastic performance cars but they just lack that last little bit of performance in stock form to overtake the Turbo, but they sure blows the door off Carrera Ss for roughly the same amount of money. Z06 on the other hand is a much much closer match performance wise to the Turbo.
Yeah it's pretty unfair to even compare them as they aren't even sports cars but it speaks volumes about BMWs 4 seaters because they are very often lumped into discussion about real sports cars.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
Whoopsy said:Quote:
Crash said:Quote:
Whoopsy said:
Guys, didn't you all forget that the M5/M6 cars are neutered at 155mph/250km/hr? So there is no point in even comparing the M6, it's a lesser car that not even in the league of Lambos, Ferraris, Porsches and even the Z06. The Merc can be factory optioned to be neutered at 186mph/300km so it's a borderline car.
If we are comparing modified cars, then it's on fair to compared a modified Turbo to a modified M6, not a stock one.
If I go hunting for a M5/M6, I will take my CLS55, 997TT is a step above them, you wouldn't race a Civic in your Turbo would you?
The M cars can be delimited up to 305 km/h...
Every single BMW except I think the M3 CSL are factory electronically limited to 155mph/250km/hr and unless I was mistaken there was NO factory option to remove that limit, hence my arguement.
Granted, any BMW can be easily modified by aftermarket to take out that limit, but in doing so the car is 'modified' already, and it would not be fair to compare it against factory cars anymore.
Porsche is the only major German car factory that do not limit themselves to the lowered limit, and it is one of the perks that sets them one step above the other German carmakers. Have you heard of the un-official Order of the Autobahn? Porsche -> Mercedes -> BMW -> Audi -> VW.
M5/M6 are fantastic performance cars but they just lack that last little bit of performance in stock form to overtake the Turbo, but they sure blows the door off Carrera Ss for roughly the same amount of money. Z06 on the other hand is a much much closer match performance wise to the Turbo.
Maybe not in Canada (even 250 km/h is too much for your traffic), but in the EU, the CSL could be delimited to 280 km/h and the M5 and M6 can be delimited to 305 km/h. You should know by now that you never get the best stuff over there
. Besides, it would be completely useless there.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Quote:
ozr said:
..now imagine Kelleners M5 walks away in such a race by...10-20 car lengths from stock M5...
...imagine 997TT has a driver, who actually knows how to drive it...
Gustav&Co. at M5board.com are known for it's STAGED videos propaganda. Their video 997TT/996TT drivers are usually pussies vs "wolfs in a sheep clothes" M5 drivers...
...ask them, if their 997TT driver knows location of the PSM OFF button and actually uses it, not to mention others...
OZRacing
I call the above statement and lots of the other comments BS.
I'm the driver of the Z06. I was very unexperienced as this was the first time ever I did a race like this. I also did mistakes but still had no problem to win over both the M6 and the Kelleners M5. So even if the driver in the Porsche 997 TT was unexperienced he would have beaten the Kelleners M5 if the P-car is so fast as many claim. I have my doubts though!!
Also the test was performed in a very fair and non-biased way. All the drivers agreed to the rules and raced according to them and to the best of their abilities.
For you who have been crying and complaining I have one advice: Put together a super car test like this yourself and then post the videos. Then we will see if the outcome will be any different. Maybe it will be, maybe not! I applaud Gustav for his hard work without charging us any money. There are not many true enthusiasts like him around!!!
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Yes, we've read of your professional 2nd gear starts 
. The Turbo isn't much slower than the Z06 and these videos prove nothing. I'd like to see them go side-to-side, with SC on. The Z06 certainly is a bit faster than the 997TT, at least from 100 to 250 km/h, but I'd like to see a comparo between these two cars. Also, how many kilometres did the Turbo and your Z06 have on the odometer?
. The Turbo isn't much slower than the Z06 and these videos prove nothing. I'd like to see them go side-to-side, with SC on. The Z06 certainly is a bit faster than the 997TT, at least from 100 to 250 km/h, but I'd like to see a comparo between these two cars. Also, how many kilometres did the Turbo and your Z06 have on the odometer?
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Crash: So if you know that I started in 2nd gear I can't understand the comment about "professional starts"....it only means that you know that the Z06 can win the races even with a rookie like me behind the wheel. What's your excuse for the Porsche? Not so many kilometers on the odometer, rookie driver, bad weather, biased propaganda test and the list goes on and on and on..... but maybe you are right, it's possible that the Porsche got hit by all those things.....I just have my doubts.
As I said: If you are not happy with the way the test was performed then it's a free world....just set up your own test with your own rules. As long as all the drivers agree to your rules all is fine. Good Luck!!
As I said: If you are not happy with the way the test was performed then it's a free world....just set up your own test with your own rules. As long as all the drivers agree to your rules all is fine. Good Luck!!
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Quote:
Congaman said:
Crash: So if you know that I started in 2nd gear I can't understand the comment about "professional starts"....it only means that you know that the Z06 can win the races even with a rookie like me behind the wheel. What's your excuse for the Porsche? Not so many kilometers on the odometer, rookie driver, bad weather, biased propaganda test and the list goes on and on and on..... but maybe you are right, it's possible that the Porsche got hit by all those things.....I just have my doubts.
As I said: If you are not happy with the way the test was performed then it's a free world....just set up your own test with your own rules. As long as all the drivers agree to your rules all is fine. Good Luck!!
Based on an independant magazine test (sportscars) the Z06 gains around 1.4s on the 997TT between 50kph and 250kph.
However, what would be interesting is to see what happens beyond 250kph. A friend claims that the Z06 should be around 2s faster between 50kph and 300kph than the 997TT. Based on 0-300 this would imply an advantage of about 1s.
Thus it is fair to say that both cars have very similar acceleration performance, with a slight advantage for the Z06
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
The Z06 is a faster car ON A ROLL than the 997TT, period. More power, alot less weight, equals faster acceleration.
The Z06 is NO MATCH and CAN NOT TOUCH a turbo from a standstill. The turbo is leapfrog. It all depends on what the conditions of the race are.
Want to even the score, tune the TT to around 540hp and they should be pretty even racing on a roll.
The Z06 is NO MATCH and CAN NOT TOUCH a turbo from a standstill. The turbo is leapfrog. It all depends on what the conditions of the race are.
Want to even the score, tune the TT to around 540hp and they should be pretty even racing on a roll.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Quote:
Congaman said:
Crash: So if you know that I started in 2nd gear I can't understand the comment about "professional starts"....it only means that you know that the Z06 can win the races even with a rookie like me behind the wheel. What's your excuse for the Porsche? Not so many kilometers on the odometer, rookie driver, bad weather, biased propaganda test and the list goes on and on and on..... but maybe you are right, it's possible that the Porsche got hit by all those things.....I just have my doubts.
As I said: If you are not happy with the way the test was performed then it's a free world....just set up your own test with your own rules. As long as all the drivers agree to your rules all is fine. Good Luck!!
The "professional starts" comment was poking fun at your expense
, as starting from 2nd at 50 km/h isn't the fastest of starts. Sarcasm, what can I say 
?Regarding excuses, I don't make them. However, when you compare two cars INDIRECTLY, through a third car, you can have problems with accuracy.
Personally, I wanted to know whether the Turbo had Sport Chrono on or not (very relevant) and also the amount of kilometres on the odometer. That is relevant because Porsche engines only begin waking up after several thousand, up to ten thousand, actually. I also wanted to know how many km your Corvette had, for simple comparison reasons. The drivers are also a big factor, but claiming that he couldn't drive would be an unfair statement (at least for the 997TT driver
). According to magazines, the Z06 is a little bit faster than the 997TT, although I'd like to see this test repeated with both cars at 10.000 km (fully broken in). I'd wager they'd be neck and neck, but one cannot tell from a simple video.
And finally, no, I don't believe in weather being the cause, nor do I believe in the Great, Evil Gustav, hell bent on proving Porsche is the worst car company on Earth. I just want objective data, that's all.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Crash: I'm sorry but I can't give youn all the data you are asking for and neither do I think Gustav can. You have to accept the test for what it was....a fun day with good friends and wonderful cars. No science involved, nor any objective data. What happened on the track was documented on video for your amusement....but unfortunately some of you have a hard time accepting this (not directed to you Crash)....
Tony007: Well, tuning the Porshe TT would require the same treatment for the Z06 wouldn't it?
http://www.thevettedoctors.com/vide...ves-z06dyno.wmv
Tony007: Well, tuning the Porshe TT would require the same treatment for the Z06 wouldn't it?
http://www.thevettedoctors.com/vide...ves-z06dyno.wmv
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
Congaman: Ok i agree the part of that Gustav makes good organizations like making a good community, doing rolls with good cars, showing the Köeninggsegg beast and many things like this. I appreciate this organisations.
However when i check the some of the videos(not all of videos,but which are neck to neck cars) seems very diferent to me.
Not to mention your Z06 i know z06 is real beast and giving a great performance on paper and on roll videos.
For example i remember 996 TT vs M6 videos. I bought an m5 a few days ago yes it is fast car but not sure that it will pass like a rocket near it. The Black Gallardo vs M5 videos
M5 pass G like a bullet however G has ESP on and the sport mod (turn on or off
) hasnt been mentioned. And the video was only posted with G esp on mode for the roll.
Ok if Kellners M5 pass z06 nobody could believe that. But if M6 pass G people may think something.Also 997 TT?? is that car really go like 997 TT. I have doubts. And imo thats my oppinino these video organisations can be good but there can some driver faults can interrupt cars real performances. As you said you go in 2nd gear??
However m6 vs G video , G is manuel and roll starts at 50kmh(which is 4k rpm for Gallardo and we all know G has a longer first gear, the car starts to put well after 4.5rpm). Anybody know that except Gallardo owners?
Nobody here underestimates M5/M6 cars, i have one of them ,real beasts. But sometimes there is an atmosphere that Porsches are bad cars so this makes some porsche owners or fans angry. So thats the point.
However when i check the some of the videos(not all of videos,but which are neck to neck cars) seems very diferent to me.
Not to mention your Z06 i know z06 is real beast and giving a great performance on paper and on roll videos.
For example i remember 996 TT vs M6 videos. I bought an m5 a few days ago yes it is fast car but not sure that it will pass like a rocket near it. The Black Gallardo vs M5 videos
M5 pass G like a bullet however G has ESP on and the sport mod (turn on or off
) hasnt been mentioned. And the video was only posted with G esp on mode for the roll.
Ok if Kellners M5 pass z06 nobody could believe that. But if M6 pass G people may think something.Also 997 TT?? is that car really go like 997 TT. I have doubts. And imo thats my oppinino these video organisations can be good but there can some driver faults can interrupt cars real performances. As you said you go in 2nd gear??
However m6 vs G video , G is manuel and roll starts at 50kmh(which is 4k rpm for Gallardo and we all know G has a longer first gear, the car starts to put well after 4.5rpm
). Anybody know that except Gallardo owners?
Nobody here underestimates M5/M6 cars, i have one of them ,real beasts. But sometimes there is an atmosphere that Porsches are bad cars so this makes some porsche owners or fans angry. So thats the point.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelleners Sport
As much as I'd love the turbo to win any and all races against the Z06, I think that's unlikely. People are arguing whther or not the turbo had sport chrono active and that the tt could be modded to even the score. Come on, boys. If YOU were racing your tt wouldn/t you have sport chrono active? And, if the tt owner can tune his car so can the Z owner; and at much less of a cost at that.
I did like the- and agree with- the leap frog comment though. And, boy what a leap frog it is.
I did like the- and agree with- the leap frog comment though. And, boy what a leap frog it is.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
In the latest edition of Car and Driver, they gathered up a whole bunch of cars and run them at Virginia International Raceway, an M6 did it in 3:10, that's even slower than a REGULAR corvette's 3:09.3, and almost 9 full seconds more than a Z06 which ran the course at 3:01.1. Heck, a Cayman S does it in 3:09.5.
It is widely accepted that an M6 is marginally faster than an M5, thus an M5 would be hard press to touch 3:10, on paper these cars really are very impressive for a big sedan or a big coupe but on a track they aren't as impressive as people think they are and so IMO this put to rest where the M5/M6 cars belongs to, it may have 500hp but it handles like a brick. Now even if Car and Driver didn't have a 997Turbo to test this time, I am sure the Turbo is going to finish up nearer to the Z06's time than the M6's time and maybe we should start comparing the M5/M6 to the Cayman S and Carrera S instead of Turbo.
It is widely accepted that an M6 is marginally faster than an M5, thus an M5 would be hard press to touch 3:10, on paper these cars really are very impressive for a big sedan or a big coupe but on a track they aren't as impressive as people think they are and so IMO this put to rest where the M5/M6 cars belongs to, it may have 500hp but it handles like a brick. Now even if Car and Driver didn't have a 997Turbo to test this time, I am sure the Turbo is going to finish up nearer to the Z06's time than the M6's time and maybe we should start comparing the M5/M6 to the Cayman S and Carrera S instead of Turbo.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
VGA18: Once more, all the races were fair and all the drivers did their very best. Perhaps some of the drivers - me included - wasn't the most scilled drivers. But we all did our very best. No one wanted to loose or make the M-cars look good.
The Gallardo was a manual, so no E-gear involved. If you look closely on the wheels of the Gallardo in the video where it races the Kelleners M5 you may see that he looses speed everytime he changes gear. The M5 doesen't have this problem as it is equipped with the super fast SMG. Same thing happened to me when I raced the Kelleners M5 back in May 2006, when the Z06 was new to me. But I still did win over the Kelleners M5 even then. So yes, maybe some of the explenation to why the Gallardo and Porsche TT doesn't perform as well as some of you want or wish could be explained by the drivers. But still, if the cars were as fast as claimed the would still have beaten the Kelleners M5 and M6 without a problem. I did and I'm a real rookie to both street races and races on the strip.
The Gallardo was a manual, so no E-gear involved. If you look closely on the wheels of the Gallardo in the video where it races the Kelleners M5 you may see that he looses speed everytime he changes gear. The M5 doesen't have this problem as it is equipped with the super fast SMG. Same thing happened to me when I raced the Kelleners M5 back in May 2006, when the Z06 was new to me. But I still did win over the Kelleners M5 even then. So yes, maybe some of the explenation to why the Gallardo and Porsche TT doesn't perform as well as some of you want or wish could be explained by the drivers. But still, if the cars were as fast as claimed the would still have beaten the Kelleners M5 and M6 without a problem. I did and I'm a real rookie to both street races and races on the strip.
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
Congaman said:
The Gallardo was a manual, so no E-gear involved. If you look closely on the wheels of the Gallardo in the video where it races the Kelleners M5 you may see that he looses speed everytime he changes gear. The M5 doesen't have this problem as it is equipped with the super fast SMG. Same thing happened to me when I raced the Kelleners M5 back in May 2006, when the Z06 was new to me. But I still did win over the Kelleners M5 even then. So yes, maybe some of the explenation to why the Gallardo and Porsche TT doesn't perform as well as some of you want or wish could be explained by the drivers.
That part is what i am exactly trying to say.
I am not talking about Kellners or Z06 rolls just saying about 996 TT, 997 TT and Gallardo races with M5/M6. So thats the point.I really noticed the loose speed on G's wheels when shifting. Maybe E-gear G with sport mod on and ESP of would be better or a stand-go roll would be fair. Thats my thought
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
VGA18 said:
Maybe E-gear G with sport mod on and ESP of would be better or a stand-go roll would be fair. Thats my thought
Well, I have no E-gear, SMG or F1 or whatever it is called. Does that mean that my races against the M5, M6 and Ferrari 430 wasn't fair??
You drive what you bring! If you would loose a street race in a manual against a SMG would you claim that "well, acctualy I did win the race as I have a manual"?! Don't think so or at least no one would care!
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Just calculated some interesting data regarding the high-speed acceleration performance of Gallardo, 997TT and Z06:
www.rennteam.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=sportscar&page=0&PHPSESSID=
www.rennteam.com/postlist.php?Cat=0&Board=sportscar&page=0&PHPSESSID=
Re: VIdeo: Porsche 911 Turbo (997) vs BMW M5 Kelle
Quote:
Congaman said:Quote:
VGA18 said:
Maybe E-gear G with sport mod on and ESP of would be better or a stand-go roll would be fair. Thats my thought
Well, I have no E-gear, SMG or F1 or whatever it is called. Does that mean that my races against the M5, M6 and Ferrari 430 wasn't fair??
Hmm ,i dont understant what you mean. But if you win with manuel Z06 thats is not because of you that is because of Z06 huge power and because of it is faster than Gallardo.
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