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    Aug 21, 2006 12:03:29 PM

    JFT
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    JFT
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    Porsche Blunders

    I think all of us here love Porsche cars, but I thought it might be an interesting exercise to make a list of all the mistakes that the Porsche company is making as they seem to be adding up these days. Is it because Porsche marketing has too much power in Porsche these days? For me the list starts as follows:

    Silly recent Porsche decisions:
    1. Making the sunroof mandatory on the US GT3/GT3 RS
    2. Pricing the Cayman S above the Boxster S
    3. Giving the Boxster S the Cayman S engine to make matters worse
    4. Putting out a faclift 997 so soon after launch (making many new buyers wait and current buyers irritated)
    5. Sports Chrono (the sport button might be nice, but forcing the clock-whart on people is not)
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability

    Are they losing the plot, or has it always been like this?

    Aug 21, 2006 12:10:44 PM

    Jeannot
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    7. No LSD on Cayman/Boxster available as an option

    Aug 21, 2006 12:15:50 PM

    TulsaTurbo
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    TulsaTurbo
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Exhaust note on the 997 Turbo!

    Aug 21, 2006 12:24:40 PM

    J.Seven
    Rennteam Master
    J.Seven
    Loc: Estoril , Portugal
    Posts: 3201, Gallery
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    Reply to: TulsaTurbo

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Cosmetics:
    Yellow seat belts
    Painted wheels
    Wood interior
    Yellow calipers (I know I know)


    Engine
    Underpowered 997 engines

    Should have been:
    (997-360hp...997S-390Hp...997GT3 440Hp...997TT-520Hp)

    J.Seven

    Aug 21, 2006 12:53:16 PM

    360bhp
    Junior
    360bhp
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    Reply to: J.Seven

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    overpromising on delivery dates for new GT3

    Aug 21, 2006 3:19:32 PM

    Avantgarde
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    Avantgarde
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    Reply to: J.Seven

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    Cosmetics:
    Yellow seat belts
    Painted wheels
    Wood interior
    Yellow calipers (I know I know)




    These are not mandatory , hence not a blunder

    Aug 21, 2006 3:24:10 PM

    FutchM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Futch
    Loc: EU , United Kingdom
    Posts: 4759, Gallery
    Registered on: May 14, 2002
    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    JFT said:
    Silly recent Porsche decisions:
    1. Making the sunroof mandatory on the US GT3/GT3 RS
    2. Pricing the Cayman S above the Boxster S
    3. Giving the Boxster S the Cayman S engine to make matters worse
    4. Putting out a faclift 997 so soon after launch (making many new buyers wait and current buyers irritated)
    5. Sports Chrono (the sport button might be nice, but forcing the clock-whart on people is not)
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability




    1. Big shame indeed. A bit silly IMO
    2. Cayman sells so it's not a bad decisions
    3. Good for Boxster clients so not a bad decision
    4. We don't know when facelift is coming out. Probably not for another year, at least, which means the current model would have had three years which is normal. So not a nad decision.
    5. I don't mind the wart, but I agree, it should be deletable.
    6. No durability problem on PCCB and they sell so not a bad decision.

    To recap, I don't live in the US and I don't mind the wart, so I'm a very happy costumer!

    Aug 21, 2006 4:45:29 PM

    percymon
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    percymon
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Can't believe no one has mentioned ipod connectivity or bluetooth phone coupling !

    Aug 21, 2006 5:20:25 PM

    FutchM
    Rennteam Moderator
    Futch
    Loc: EU , United Kingdom
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    Registered on: May 14, 2002
    Reply to: percymon

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    percymon said:
    Can't believe no one has mentioned ipod connectivity or bluetooth phone coupling !



    Very good point. That actually annoys me.
    I know it's a sports car but it would really be welcome.
    Played with in the new Ferrari 599 and it's amazing! Ipod connection and mobile phone bluetooth!

    Aug 21, 2006 5:25:06 PM

    JFT
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    JFT
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    Fanch said:
    Quote:
    JFT said:
    Silly recent Porsche decisions:
    1. Making the sunroof mandatory on the US GT3/GT3 RS
    2. Pricing the Cayman S above the Boxster S
    3. Giving the Boxster S the Cayman S engine to make matters worse
    4. Putting out a faclift 997 so soon after launch (making many new buyers wait and current buyers irritated)
    5. Sports Chrono (the sport button might be nice, but forcing the clock-whart on people is not)
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability




    1. Big shame indeed. A bit silly IMO
    2. Cayman sells so it's not a bad decisions
    3. Good for Boxster clients so not a bad decision
    4. We don't know when facelift is coming out. Probably not for another year, at least, which means the current model would have had three years which is normal. So not a nad decision.
    5. I don't mind the wart, but I agree, it should be deletable.
    6. No durability problem on PCCB and they sell so not a bad decision.

    To recap, I don't live in the US and I don't mind the wart, so I'm a very happy costumer!



    It's your prerogative to disagree, of course. But just because something sells doesn't make it a good idea. You can do a lot of things to boost sales short term that may not be the right decision to build long term equity. You agree that the mandated sunroof for US GT3s is a poor decision. But with the "if it sells" logic it's a good decision becuase Porsche will shift as many US sunroofed GT3s as they can make. Issue is I think they are undermining their long term equity with a lot of decisions these days.

    Aug 21, 2006 5:32:32 PM

    FutchM
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    Futch
    Loc: EU , United Kingdom
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Pleasing Rennteam costumers and insuring the success of the firm are two very different things.
    Porsche is probably the only car manufacturer today that is a good long term investment, consider BMW too.
    Time will tell obviously but I believe Porsche will still be a successful and independant carmaker in 10 years from now.

    Aug 21, 2006 5:39:26 PM

    JFT
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    I'm not saying they are going bancrupt Fanch. I am saying that short term profit hunger can be detrimental to long-term profit. We'll see.

    Aug 21, 2006 6:31:56 PM

    MikeB
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Basically agree with Fanch's analysis. But since I'm pondering a GT3 purchase I would be a little stronger in critizing #1. This is in the cynically egregious category. I think this is the only "blunder" that is seriously causing people to cancel or defer their decision in hopes of a correction down the road. A good old fashion Jesse Jackson style boycot of the U.S. GT3 seems to be in order....power to the people

    Aug 21, 2006 7:07:22 PM

    STRADALE
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    STRADALE
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    JFT said:
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability



    Ferrari F430 Carbon Ceramic brake option = $18,000 (twice the price of Porsche's PCCB's)

    In terms of "durability", the PCCB's supposedly last a lot longer (pad's & rotors) so not sure what you mean there. I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace PCCB pads so not positive how much the pad change costs. And imo the $9k for PCCB's is well worth the $, I'll never order the cast iron (steel) brakes again. To basically get the Carrera GT brakes for $9k when you could almost spend that on CF for the interior is a better way to go.

    My "blunder" would be - 997 turbo hp.


    ps: I really like the sport chrono wart so I'm in the vast minority there.

    Aug 21, 2006 7:37:22 PM

    fritz
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    fritz
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    Reply to: STRADALE

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    JFT said:
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability



    Ferrari F430 Carbon Ceramic brake option = $18,000 (twice the price of Porsche's PCCB's)

    In terms of "durability", the PCCB's supposedly last a lot longer (pad's & rotors) so not sure what you mean there. I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace PCCB pads so not positive how much the pad change costs.



    Anybody who tracks their PCCB-equipped car will confirm that pad life is not much - if at all - longer than for cast iron rotor brakes. The pad materials used on PCCB and cast-iron rotor brakes are very similar or even interchangable, depending on what the car is used for. It follows that the pad prices are also not wildly different between PCCB and cast-iron rotor applications.

    The longer life claimed for PCCB relates to rotor life.

    Aug 21, 2006 8:16:49 PM

    WBH
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    IMO, the perennially delayed PDK will put mkt for 997TT (and GT2/3) in stand-still in Spr07, as many prospective buyers will want to know when exactly PDK will be released/how it compares vs archaic manual/Tip....

    And having owned early iterations of both 360 F-1 and Gallardo e-gear...and expcd F's remarkable refinement of F-1 in today's 599 , I suspect early PDKs will struggle w/buggy software, esp evident in many hilly and urban settings....

    Also, P's dismal resale values in US for well-equipped 997TTs (w/ancient trannies and econocar exhaust note) will prob test patience of any US buyer who can obtain 430/599@MSRP....and one can even make case that buying a 430Spider/599 at mkt prices may not cost any more in one-yr deprec than a $150K 997TT will....

    Aug 22, 2006 12:04:34 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    2. Cayman sells so it's not a bad decisions



    Does it? Where?

    Aug 22, 2006 12:42:02 PM

    Jeannot
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    Jeannot
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    in US apparently...

    Aug 22, 2006 12:59:15 PM

    993Targa
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    993Targa
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    Reply to: Avantgarde

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    Avantgarde said:
    Quote:
    J.Seven said:
    Cosmetics:
    Yellow seat belts
    Painted wheels
    Wood interior
    Yellow calipers (I know I know)




    These are not mandatory , hence not a blunder



    First three are just bad taste

    Aug 22, 2006 2:37:39 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: 993Targa

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Biggest blunder IMO?

    Putting 50 switches (many of which do not work) on a frickin' ugly center console central command monitor and calling it "Porsche Communications Management."

    Insult to injury is the thing is mediocre in functionality and low on the user-friendly scale.

    Aug 22, 2006 4:05:53 PM

    Dan L
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    JFT said:
    6. PCCB pricing vs. durability



    Ferrari F430 Carbon Ceramic brake option = $18,000 (twice the price of Porsche's PCCB's)

    In terms of "durability", the PCCB's supposedly last a lot longer (pad's & rotors) so not sure what you mean there. I've yet to hear from a single person that's had to replace PCCB pads so not positive how much the pad change costs.



    Anybody who tracks their PCCB-equipped car will confirm that pad life is not much - if at all - longer than for cast iron rotor brakes. The pad materials used on PCCB and cast-iron rotor brakes are very similar or even interchangable, depending on what the car is used for. It follows that the pad prices are also not wildly different between PCCB and cast-iron rotor applications.

    The longer life claimed for PCCB relates to rotor life.




    Before I ordered the PCCBs for my cabriolet I priced them at the local dealer. Something like $350 for the PCCB pads and about $250 for the regular,--retail.

    Not that big a difference for such gains.

    Dan

    Aug 22, 2006 4:12:03 PM

    TrojanHorse
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    Reply to: MMD

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    A couple of thoughts (better known as "my 2 cents" on this:

    1. I think the GT3 will be a wonderful car--its already proved itself to most of the world's performance motoring press. So, a sunroof in US will not cause the market to "tank" for GT3's and fantasy is the word if you think there will be a "boycott" of the car in the US market over the lack of a "sun roof delete". Most US dealers are sold out of their allocations for a long time already. I agree it would have been better to give an option to delete, but unless you race it (not just track it) it'll be negligable difference, at most. As for PDK, it could prove to be great, but also it could take a while to shake down--like gen 1 xenons or gen 1 pccb's. Few that really want a 997 GT3 are going to "wait" on the hope they get the option and it works like everyone hopes. I'd guess it'll be the next generation 911 before PDK becomes the standard for Porsche's performance models.

    2. True Facts: PCCB costs are 1/2 of Ferrari's. Also, Porsche's standard brakes are the best in class, but their 2nd gen PCCBs are certainly as very very good and very durable. If you can afford them, buy them. If not, stay with the standard fare and you'll be happy, too.

    3. What harm comes from allowing you to order dev color seatbelts, wheels and other special personal items, like wood interior parts? Marketing it may be, but when you sell a $100k product, the customer should get to choose as much as possible. Don't like it, don't choose it. But, at least you get a choice.

    4. Cayman S is selling quite well in the US--as are 911's by the way. And, I've recently seen several Cayman S on the streets and they look much better that I expected after seeing the design only in print. As for the Boxster S, its still a good seller after 10 years and remains a great platform but was "always" under powered. Ruf (and others) proved beefing the engine up to 300 hp and above was a simple fix so why complain when Porsche does it? Remember also, pricing is usually a function of depreciated design/tooling costs and overall market strategy--the Boxster's costs were long ago recovered and the Cayman needs a bit more time to cover the same costs. And, Porsche needed a mid level model for buyers that just couldn't swing a fully loaded 911 but didn't cotton to a Boxster roadster. I'd say Porsche has come up with a decent way to deal with this issue in the Cayman series.

    4. The biggest blunder I've seen from Porsche is over production of its Turbo line--996 TT values went down almost immediately so that 2 year old ones in nearly perfect shape had lost nearly $50k in value from new. Ferrari does a MUCH better job in this arena and it's one, of several, reasons that I put a deposit down on a 430 instead of a 997 TT this time. I'll not ever take that level of head slap again and judging from what I've heard in the market, 997 TTs are still suffering from this 996 TT hangover/backlash.

    5. Another real blunder or two--its PCM/SatNav systems are terrible. Always have been. It's tie in to blue tooth, telephones and MP3 systems are ridiculous, too. If I were Porsche, I recognize the problem, immediately fire the whole department and start over from scratch. In long run, it would be best solution for these continuing problems.

    Aug 22, 2006 6:03:09 PM

    U Boat Commander
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    U Boat Commander
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    Reply to: TrojanHorse

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    I know not everyone will ageee with me, but I would add PASM to the list. I've never been happy with this set up. I like the concept of having a soft more and a sport mode. But it just doesn't seem to work for me. Perhaps there should be a real soft mode (like a Merc SL) for when you really just want to cruise down the freeway (I would like this for when coming from home late after work and I am tired), a medium mode (like a 996 feel) and a sport mode (like the current 997 sport mode). Perhaps future generations of PASM will be improved. Fingers crossed.

    Aug 22, 2006 6:37:42 PM

    Jim48
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Regarding the mandatory sunroof on the GT3's in the U.S., I suspect it is because Porsche has only crash-tested the coupe with a sunroof (a crash test performed for the U.S. Transportation Department, National Highway Traffic Saftety Administration). It would have to crash-test a separate coupe without the sunroof to get U.S. certification. That is also why you cannot order a C2 or C2S or C4 or C4S without a sunroof in the U.S.

    Jim

    Aug 22, 2006 8:52:28 PM

    Joe S.
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    Reply to: TrojanHorse

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    TrojanHorse said:
    when you sell a $100k product, the customer should get to choose as much as possible. Don't like it, don't choose it. But, at least you get a choice.





    Exactly, just like you should be able to delete the sunroof...

    Aug 22, 2006 9:01:27 PM

    bstew
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    I guess one could always have issues like these with cars. The good thing is most of the ones you mention are options.

    Aug 22, 2006 9:18:07 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Joe S.

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    There are more Porsche Blunders!

    Here...

    Porsche Passes on '07 Cayenne

    Ample dealer stocks of 2006 models and a facelift in the offing have given Porsche all the excuses it needs to skip the 2007 model year of its Cayenne sport-utility vehicle. Automotive News says that the company is passing on the 2007 model with a 51-day supply of 2006 models in its pipeline and a desire to avoid confusing its customers with a short run of 2007 models. The facelifted Cayenne appears for the 2008 model (as does a similarly facelifted VW Touareg and a revised Audi Q7) in the first half of 2007.

    AND I think NOT having a Cayenne V8 in the US with a MANUAL
    transmission was a error. Maybe 10% more sales if they had
    offered a package with a stick shift/suspension/lockers f%R/
    flares/beefy off-on road tires etc..

    Aug 22, 2006 9:28:28 PM

    JFT
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Wow. To think that I missed listing the Cayenne! Well spotted Jim.

    Aug 22, 2006 11:43:27 PM

    MMD
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    Reply to: bstew

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    Quote:
    bstew said:
    I guess one could always have issues like these with cars. The good thing is most of the ones you mention are options.



    Yeah, but too bad about the mandatory PCM in the Carrera , the Boxster has PCM as optional.

    Looks alot cleaner and nicer for the overall interior. Makes the 50+ button-ed "PorscheCommunications Management" seem absurd.

    Aug 23, 2006 4:16:40 PM

    1st997
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    Reply to: JFT

    Re: Porsche Blunders

    How about adding:

    NO SPARE TIRE!!
     
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