Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me - Page1

Aug 2, 2006 3:20:55 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004

Carrera GT Warranty Hell

A rather upset customer swears off Porsches...ar least till the next one.

The factory even sent a instructor around to teach him how to drive it.

Was he having "rolling senior moments" ??? Link Here:A Clutch Too Far

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Aug 2, 2006 7:57:22 AM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Carrera GT Warranty Hell

he! he!
one of those cases where you see both sides but know most likely the guy fried the clutch from abuse, and porsche still had to eat it!

jeff

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Aug 2, 2006 10:34:22 PM

Porky Tokyo: Senior; Loc: Tokyo, Japan; Posts: 617, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 8, 2005; Reply to: icon

Re: Carrera GT Warranty Hell

apparently he wasn't told that you should not press the loud pedal on pull away in the CGT! The clutch apparently allows you to reverse and go forward fast enough for when you park and pull away. There was a huge write up about it in rennlist and I think that Mr. Nicol actually wrote in the rennlist site his experience.

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Aug 2, 2006 11:39:31 PM

syf0n: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 107, Gallery; Registered on: May 13, 2004; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Carrera GT Warranty Hell

Another rich [censored] who thinks he knows more than everyone else in the world? More than likely.

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Aug 2, 2006 11:43:58 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13737, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: Porky Tokyo

Re: Carrera GT Warranty Hell

Quote:
Porky Tokyo said:
apparently he wasn't told that you should not press the loud pedal on pull away in the CGT! The clutch apparently allows you to reverse and go forward fast enough for when you park and pull away. There was a huge write up about it in rennlist and I think that Mr. Nicol actually wrote in the rennlist site his experience.

I tried it several times and it did not work very well. Imagine letting out the clutch slowly without throttle and then applying throttle once it starts to roll. Very counterintuitive.

BTW $20,000 to replace the clutch?

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Aug 3, 2006 12:26:34 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
A rather upset customer swears off Porsches...or least till the next one.

The factory even sent a instructor around to teach him how to drive it.

Was he having "rolling senior moments"?

Senior moment? More like "WET" from another thread (Wealth, Ego, Throttle).

I talked to a Car and Driver editor after he had just returned from the press introduction and testing of the Carrera GT some years ago. He told me a story about overhearing Don Sherman (former C and D editor-in-chief and now tech ed of Automobile - no shrinking violet, the car tester from Hell) having an exploratory conversation about the Carrera GT clutch.

The assembled press corps had been doing acceleration testing all day. It was an experimental procedure that entailed a lot of either "smoke 'em, buck, or stall" launches until each magazines' test drivers got an optimum technique sorted out. Not every test driver was prepared for the low-rotary-momentum engine characteristics and many had to puzzle out a successful launch method. The clutch took the brunt of the sorting.

There were lots and lots of 6,000 rpm and side-step-the-clutch launches going on all day. The abuse the CGT clutches were absorbing was amazing to behold. As the test day was wrapping up, Don decided to chat up the Porsche support technicians about how they might try to recover from the day's abuse to be ready for more of the same the following morning. He asked one mechanic, "Are you going to replace the clutches before the next group tries the cars?" The Porsche tech looked up from his work and said, "No. ... Why do you ask?"

My editor friend concluded from his eye-witness observations that the CGT clutch was "very robust" in his experienced view.

The CGT clutch is not particularly fragile at all. Some owners are merely not up to those tasks of driving that nearly everyone on Rennteam takes for granted. Pity!

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Aug 3, 2006 12:57:47 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Mike is the CGT's clutch feel kind of like a "button" clutch on older race cars? More like a "on/off" switch feel from a standing start?

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Aug 3, 2006 3:26:52 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Mike is the CGT's clutch feel kind of like a "button" clutch on older race cars? More like a "on/off" switch feel from a standing start?

No.

Not at all.

Some people mistakenly think the clutch is like a switch because the engine has very little rotary inertia and won't keep spinning if it gets a little load on it without also getting some throttle. Their unfounded expectation regarding how motors are "supposed to work" overwhelms their observational powers, and they then jump to an unwarranted conclusion about the clutch.

After all, their troubles started at the precise moment they released the clutch

Some people don't know how to interpret the term "very little rotary inertia". This is all there is to the conundrum. Period.

It's not the clutch, and never has been. It's always been the driver not knowing how to interpret the motorcycle-like engine characteristics. Anyone who has ever adapted to a ultra-light flywheel race motor will be up to speed in one or two launches from rest.

The car is an interpretation of a racing car experience for the street. The CGT has lots of very authentic race car feel, including its wonderful engine response. It revs like no other street engine. This also means it wants to quit turning faster than any other street engine.

Some people must only want their own half-baked idea of what is a race car experience. They want it "their way" (the customer is always right even if he's a fool?). They apparently don't want the real thing.

Too bad for them. The Carrera GT is the real thing, and I am very pleased.

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Aug 3, 2006 5:09:31 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

After re reading about the "very little rotary inertia" and
"ultra-light flywheel race motor" I understand it better.

Thank you - Jim

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Aug 5, 2006 4:09:22 PM

Revvv: Pilot; Loc: Ft. Lauderdale, FL , United States; Posts: 377, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 25, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Mike,
That truly is a very unique, and valid take on the clutch issue. I had not really thought about it in those terms before. Porsche is so pure; they want the GT to be a race car experience; without compromise. That's the way it should
be.....
Revvv

PS I just came back from a long drive to NC from FL. "Your"
Technology truly rocks !! Thank You !

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Aug 6, 2006 11:26:00 AM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
W8MM said:
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Mike is the CGT's clutch feel kind of like a "button" clutch on older race cars? More like a "on/off" switch feel from a standing start?

No.

Not at all.

Some people mistakenly think the clutch is like a switch because the engine has very little rotary inertia and won't keep spinning if it gets a little load on it without also getting some throttle. Their unfounded expectation regarding how motors are "supposed to work" overwhelms their observational powers, and they then jump to an unwarranted conclusion about the clutch.

After all, their troubles started at the precise moment they released the clutch

Some people don't know how to interpret the term "very little rotary inertia". This is all there is to the conundrum. Period.

It's not the clutch, and never has been. It's always been the driver not knowing how to interpret the motorcycle-like engine characteristics. Anyone who has ever adapted to a ultra-light flywheel race motor will be up to speed in one or two launches from rest.

The car is an interpretation of a racing car experience for the street. The CGT has lots of very authentic race car feel, including its wonderful engine response. It revs like no other street engine. This also means it wants to quit turning faster than any other street engine.

Some people must only want their own half-baked idea of what is a race car experience. They want it "their way" (the customer is always right even if he's a fool?). They apparently don't want the real thing.

Too bad for them. The Carrera GT is the real thing, and I am very pleased.

Interesting post.

A good example of how explaining a situation in blunt terms allows the message to get across much more clearly and quickly than trying to protect peoples' feelings by cryptically talking around the problem.

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Aug 20, 2006 5:33:13 PM

Cavaleer: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 3, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 11, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

W8MM, could you give a regular lurker who plans to own a CGT more insight into the clutch mechanism and action, your experiences with the clutch specifically and with the CGT overall.

I've found that the most useful reviews of this precision machine are from owners, not one time drivers or journalists.

What I understand of it, having seen it and read about it, is that it's a very pure machine, with as few compromises as possible made between track and road.

This is why I want one.

Many thanks,

Cavaleer

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Aug 21, 2006 2:57:08 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Cavaleer

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
Cavaleer said:
W8MM, could you give a regular lurker who plans to own a CGT more insight into the clutch mechanism and action, your experiences with the clutch specifically and with the CGT overall.

I would be pleased to help: Click on my user name in the window to the left and select the choice to read other posts of mine in the "Porsche" forum. I've covered a lot of it before.

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Aug 21, 2006 10:15:09 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
W8MM said:
...The CGT clutch is not particularly fragile at all.

The advantage of the CC-based clutch is their rigidity and therefore the ability to reduce the diameter, which after all enabled Porsche to lower the engine and the center of gravity. It does hold up the forced that are applied to it. However what it does NOT stand is heat - the reason is that ceramic has a lower ability to transfer friction heat than steel. The organic material that is used in clutches simply overheats.

From this point of view and reading the above mentioned post I'd assume that it is most important to reduce duration and amount of friction to the clutch!

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Aug 21, 2006 1:46:04 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

Quote:
Ferdie said:... From this point of view and reading the above mentioned post I'd assume that it is most important to reduce duration and amount of friction to the clutch!

Ferdie, I believe that you are exactly correct.

Hurley Haywood was overheard to say that constantly slipping the clutch (for long durations) was not good for it.

If one were to apply fixed throttle to maintain, say, 5000 rpm on the tach and then use only the clutch to modulate movement of the car, this would be bad for any clutch.

As you point out, ceramic clutch elements may transfer heat more slowly than a steel flywheel or pressure plate in an ordinary car. On the other hand, the ceramic friction surface is thought to be more robust than the organic bits in a steel "street" clutch assembly. But, after the heat begins to build up over a long period of constant slippage abuse, it can't get out of the ceramic assembly as quickly as a "normal" steel unit, causing temperatures to rise above their already higher engineering limit. This characteristic does not make PCCC inferior, merely different from that to which one may be used.

I'll posit that the Porsche Ceramic Composite Clutch is similar to the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake in some basic user benefits and differences. It seems that PCC Brakes are sensitive to adequate cooling air to maintain problem-free operation in high-stress usage. The brake feel is wonderful, the operational life is long, etc., if the maximum operating temperature is not exceeded. Early 996 PCCB may have had some border-line cooling issues that have been engineered out in subsequent 997 and CGT applications of these brakes. As well, the PCC Clutch has great feel, high capacity, solid coupling, and long life, provided it is not grossly overheated.

Some drivers punish their car's friction components relentlessly until the "warning smell" signals that enough is enough. This goes for brakes or clutch. PCCB and PCCC don't respond well to "beat, heat, then stink" driving because they never develop "stink". They merely over-cook without fanfare. Even though the Carrera GT is a very high limit, very durable super-car, it should not be expected to suffer exotic levels of abuse without injury.

The PCCC in the CGT may actually be the best clutch on the planet ... as long as it's not severely overheated. Driving around with the clutch half-engaged and lots of throttle dialed in is probably a recipe for a clutch job in any car. It's just WAY more expensive in a Carrera GT!

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Aug 24, 2006 9:35:50 PM

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , United States; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2006; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Carrera GT Warranty: Pretty good if you ask me

The best lesson I ever received was owning a 914 back in the 1970s. I was a terror with the clutch, necessitating several clutch replacements until one day I went into the shop to see the whole thing apart. From that day forward I fully understood the concept behind a clutch, and as a result I have never had to replace a clutch in a Porsche again. I put over 116,000 on one 911 (77) and it did need a rebuild when I traded it away,--but they left the clutch in it saying,--that clutch is just fine. Same on a later turbo,--had over 125,000 on that car as well. Never put a clutch in it before I sold it. I finally learned how to properly drive a manual transmission car back in 1975 and never have had a problem. Apparently some folks need that course in mechanics.

Dan

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